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[TatteredHat]

I don't know about the exact context here but it IS Karneval, so take it with atleast a little grain of salt.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

not sure if you troll me at this point.

If not: MLK was the first best example that came to mind. Propably not as good example because he hasnt any salient external features. James Brown would be a better one with his distinct haircut and suits hes waering. that said, skin color is just one aspect of dressing up but nonetheless its part of it. and if i would go as james brown, yes, i think i look like james brown by putting some black paint on my face, in addition to costume and wig. For sure more then without paint.

Well, good luck with that... You'll just look like another ignorant white guy in face paint.

 

[oti]

I don't believe they're mocking the racist idiots who really believe that stuff. And if they are they're terrible at it.

Regarding blackface: It being not cool was news to me as well. I learned my lesson and moved on.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

do people really need a "history of blackface" to understand how racist walking outside in blackface is?

first im not cosplaying. Its carnival and not soime kind of comic expo.
and secondly, as far as i know, MLK was a black man. So i need to make my skin look like a black man. That is the point of dressing up as someone else, to look like the original.

 

[DrM]

Yeah Karnival comes from the old tradition of "day of the fools", where (almost) everything is permitted, hierarchy is reversed, and people can talk and dress how they want. Of course some may abuse of it, but it's traditionally a cultural way of letting off some steam.

Nicely said.

 

[Palculator]

Yeah Karnival comes from the old tradition of "day of the fools", where (almost) everything is permitted, hierarchy is reversed, and people can talk and dress how they want. Of course some may abuse of it, but it's traditionally a cultural way of letting off some steam.

This. A lot of dumb stuff happens alongside a lot of funny stuff and the world moves on with their free candy.

 

[Skellig Gra]

do people really need a "history of blackface" to understand how racist walking outside in blackface is?

I think it should be force fed down people's throats as frequently as possible.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

never heard about this here. I mean, if i theoreticaly wanted to go as martin luther king, what am i supposed to do in america? Put a mask on? Not allowed to go as him as a white man?

That's silly..just don't blackface. How big is MLK where you're from? Serious question.

first im not cosplaying. Its carnival and not soime kind of comic expo.
and secondly, as far as i know, MLK was a black man. So i need to make my skin look like a black man. That is the point of dressing up as someone else, to look like the original.

Somehow, him not being an ass in blackface, I still knew who he is supposed to be..because he looks like the original. The original isn't a Korean man..

 

[AcademicSaucer]

There is an argument to me made about red face or black face not having the same connotations outside of the US, but context is everything, and I dont know if its worth it to argue about it in this context.

 

[Oversoul]

To me as a European the MLK dress-up discussion is pretty bizarre. I understand the connotations with blackface. However, as far as I understand blackface was meant to be a caricature with big lips etc to make black people look bad.

How is painting yourself black to look like MLK a caricature or making black people look bad? I'd say if you really like MLK, going that extra mile to ace your costume is a pretty innocent thing to do.

 

[oti]

do people really need a "history of blackface" to understand how racist walking outside in blackface is?

Dude, when I heard the term blackface I thought about little kids dressing up as black cats. That's what blackface means here in Germany. Or maybe chimney sweeper after they're done working. I never knew white people dressed up as black people to act out racism in the US. How am I supposed to know that without hearing about it first.

 

[Buzzman]

ROFL.....

Anyway, Cultural Genocide is what they're trying to get across, with events such as

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization_of_Tibet

being examples of it happening

I don't see how Tibet remotely matches in. Somehow I don't think that Abdel from Raqqa is really planning the destruction of european culture.

 

[ElTorro]

do people really need a "history of blackface" to understand how racist walking outside in blackface is?

People look at things from their own cultural backgrounds. As I said, Germany never had a significant black population, so such cultural sensitivities are naturally not as much on the cultural radar. Conversely, a lot of jokes involving Jews that seem to be ok in the context of US comedy are at most just borderline acceptable in Germany. For instance, when I started reading GAF, I was a bit irritated by the frequent "PC master race" meme.

 

[AlphaDump]

There is an argument to me made about red face or black face not having the same connotations outside of the US, but context is everything, and I dont know if its worth it to argue about it in this context.

Context is everything. Like black/red face being historically used as Nazi propaganda against the United States.


In this thread you have conflicting responses around how this parade is interrupted. It is despised, it is a way to blow off steam, it's just a joke (accept for the nazi stuff, dont pay attention to it), and etc.

it can be a bit.. glaring...

 

[Coffee Dog]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't think Mardi Gras has people in ethnic facepaint and gross political bullshit on their floats.

Yeah Karnival comes from the old tradition of "day of the fools", where (almost) everything is permitted, hierarchy is reversed, and people can talk and dress how they want. Of course some may abuse of it, but it's traditionally a cultural way of letting off some steam.

Oh, I didn't realize Germany made "don't call my dumb ass out for fuckery" a holiday. Hear that guys, it's all cool! Being a dumbass is just tradition!

 

[Slayven]

first im not cosplaying. Its carnival and not soime kind of comic expo.
and secondly, as far as i know, MLK was a black man. So i need to make my skin look like a black man. That is the point of dressing up as someone else, to look like the original.

So MLK's only defining and memorable characteristic is he is black? So you are just going as a black dude in a suit

 

[Steiner84]

Ok, i realize i may be getting banned for this, so farewell gaf, i guess. It was not my intention to offend anyone, i never heard of the concept of blackfacing. And honestly, yes, as someone who isnt racist, who has no problems with any race or religion or belief, the concept of painting my skin for purposes of lighthearted hapiness beeing wrong never occured me. If that qualifies me as racist, then im propably am. sorry. the people arround me (including lots of turkish imigrants, black and asian people propably disagree though)

That's silly..just don't blackface. How big is MLK where you're from? Serious question.

Somehow, him not being an ass in blackface, I still knew who he is supposed to be..because he looks like the original. The original isn't a Korean man..

Im from germany. MLK is known for what he did but doesnt play any role in german life. Compare him to ghandi maybe.


Im honest, the korean guy would lokk even more like Mr T if he would have colored his face black. Thats my honest opinion, sorry if thats rude, its just what it looks like to me. I realize your point, i know its mr t. but to me (as a german without the us background of blackfacing) there is more to costume yourself as someone then just putting on a dress. Its not just byuing clothes and be done with it. people put serious thought and work in it, and make up is a part of that. and if that means one has to paint his face black, red, green, yellow or purple - striped, dottet or squared than that is part of it where i live. That has nothing to do with racism, not in the slightest. Im sorry if thats differnt in other parts of the world, that is new to me.

ElTorro compared it to jew jokes. thats propably it. Absolute nogos here in germany, but totally acceptable in the US. Doesnt mean that these people are all antisemites. They just like black humor.

So MLK's only defining and memorable characteristic is he is black? So you are just going as a black dude in a suit

I elaborated further on this thought in a succedeing post, pls read that.

 

[oti]

You look at things based on your cultural background. As I said, Germany never had a significant black population, so such cultural sensitivities are naturally not as much on the cultural radar. Conversely, a lot of jokes involving Jews that seem to be ok in the context of US comedy are at most just borderline acceptable in Germany. For instance, when I started reading GAF, I was a bit irritated by the frequent "PC master race" meme.

The word "race" in general sounds very odd for German ears when it is used in the context of human beings. Race is used for dogs and cats, not for people.

 

[Oversoul]

So MLK's only defining and memorable characteristic is he is black? So you are just going as a black dude in a suit

That's not what he's saying.

 

[Slayven]

That's not what he's saying.

Post on your main account

 

[Oversoul]

Post on your main account

I'm new here. I just dislike strawmans.

But judging from the talk about bans, I think I'll leave it at that.

 

[Oersted]

There is an argument to me made about red face or black face not having the same connotations outside of the US, but context is everything, and I dont know if its worth it to argue about it in this context.

Germany committed the first genocide of 20th century in Africa. You still shouldn't be black in eastern Germany. Germany has an issue and little to no awareness.

 

[hobblygobbly]

Oh, I didn't realize Germany made "don't call my dumb ass out for fuckery" a holiday. Hear that guys, it's all cool! Being a dumbass is just tradition!

It's a holiday that exists to mainly mock people in power, local politicians, foreign politicians, etc (it's the vast majority of the floats and things) and dressing up as other things, however some morons also use it for racist caricatures. The holiday doesn't exist in the particular context you think it does regarding its main purpose. The racist caricatures that take place are a "smaller part" (not that it's any better) than what mostly takes place, some people use it as an excuse in your context which you're completely correct about - to be dumbasses and immune to criticism, but the overall purpose of the holiday is not that. Obviously this is in respect to major cities that I have observed, the racist caricatures are more likely ramprant in other smaller towns and such no doubt.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

"Being racially insensitive is normal in Germany" is one of the weakest defenses I've heard for black/redface.

 

[mnz]

Germany committed the first genocide in human history in Africa. You still shouldn't be black in eastern Germany. Germany has an issue and little to no awareness.

Yeah right... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history

"Being racially insensitive is normal in Germany" is one of the weakest defenses I've heard for black/redface.

That's not what anyone was saying, though? Just that it doesn't get the same reaction. Someone else made the comparison, but imagine jokes about jews in the US and Germany, there will be a different reaction.

 

[Izuna]

Bish eating them Cheetos waiting for enough people to be baited into a ban.

I don't care for the red face, but the statues in the carnival are fascinating. Especially the one where the guy is desperately trying to close borders.

Theresa May is face-palming at Germany at the moment.

 

[jonno394]

I don't see how Tibet remotely matches in. Somehow I don't think that Abdel from Raqqa is really planning the destruction of european culture.

European culture will be destroyed by the tides of immigration. It won't happen in my lifetime or the lifetime of my kids, grandkids or even great(great great)grandkids, but one day, the indigenous population of europe will be outnumbered by non-indigenous, and who knows what will be left of European culture.

 

[Slayven]

"Being racially insensitive is normal in Germany" is one of the weakest defenses I've heard for black/redface.

Usually how it goes for talks about racism in Europe.

 

[Bollocks]

There is an argument to me made about red face or black face not having the same connotations outside of the US, but context is everything, and I dont know if its worth it to argue about it in this context.

True that, it's a shame how the op is fishing for outrage with the whole red face angle, when in reality it's all about context

 

[Coffee Dog]

European culture will be destroyed by the tides of immigration. It won't happen in my lifetime or the lifetime of my kids, grandkids or even great(great great)grandkids, but one day, the indigenous population of europe will be outnumbered by non-indigenous, and who knows what will be left of European culture.

why would anyone other than paranoid racists be concerned about this?

 

[SirJackDaniels]

Slight OT but tying in to the blackface debate.

Netherlands being classy as usual during Carnaval:

They are dressed up as Yaya and Kolo Toure.

Whats even more disgusting this photo won a prize as best football related carnaval picture for a big dutch football website.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

People look at things from their own cultural backgrounds. As I said, Germany never had a significant black population, so such cultural sensitivities are naturally not as much on the cultural radar.

It did, in it's colonies. It even was "kind" to them to commit genocide. German colonial powers also established to Germans that the African was inferior to white man. Even when there were mixed race German (with African descent) the children were sterilized and became wards of the state. Hell, even the Nazi's implementation "racial hygiene" was born out of Germany's colonial practices.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

There is a reason why I hate carneval. For a few days everybody collectively loses their minds and turns into an obnoxious asshole laughing on command about unfunny bullshit.

Embarrassing.

 

[Fritz]

I am German too and I always felt blackface is insensitive. It mocks a biological preset that should be irrelevant.

 

[Irminsul]

"Being racially insensitive is normal in Germany" is one of the weakest defenses I've heard for black/redface.

Well, good thing then this isn't the argument being made. But this discussion is completely useless anyway.

 

[jonno394]

why would anyone other than paranoid racists be concerned about this?

The R word rears its head.

 

[Oversoul]

Slight OT but tying in to the blackface debate.

Netherlands being classy as usual during Carnaval:

"context is everything"



"...except when it's not American Context TM."

 

[Lime]

European culture will be destroyed by the tides of immigration. It won't happen in my lifetime or the lifetime of my kids, grandkids or even great(great great)grandkids, but one day, the indigenous population of europe will be outnumbered by non-indigenous, and who knows what will be left of European culture.

"culture" isn't some everlasting thing that remains constant throughout time eternal.

However these people you are referring to define what their culture is, I can tell you for a fact that it's just some constructed bullshit about "traditions" and "values" that is no more than a couple of decades or a century at most old which probably got imported from somewhere else in the world

 

[Coffee Dog]

The R word rears its head.

???

Are you going for "pointing this out makes you the real racist"?

 

[Chairmanchuck]

There is a reason why I hate carneval. For a few days everybody collectively loses their minds and turns into an obnoxious asshole laughing on command about unfunny bullshit.

Embarrassing.

While I would agree with you, some "Büttenreden" are actually quite smart and if you like cabaret you will find a lot of similarities.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

It did, in it's colonies. It even was "kind" to them to commit genocide. German colonial powers also established to Germans that the African was inferior to white man. Even when there were mixed race German (with African descent) the children were sterilized and became wards of the state. Hell, even the Nazi's implementation "racial hygiene" was born out of Germany's colonial practices.

He is not talking about the colonies.

 

[Beefy]

Slight OT but tying in to the blackface debate.

Netherlands being classy as usual during Carnaval:

Never knew the whole Liverpool/ Man City team were black...

So messed up.

 

[ElTorro]

It did, in it's colonies. It even was kind to them to commit genocide. German colonial powers also established to German that the African were inferior to white men. Even when there were mixed race German (with African descent) the children were sterilized and became wards of the state. Hell, even the Nazi's implementation "racial hygiene" was born out of Germany's colonial practices.

I was talking about continental Germany over the last decades. Compared to other European countries, the black population in Germany was small, and even though it has grown a little bit in the recent past, it still remains small to this day compared to other ethnic minorities.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

???

Are you going for "pointing this out makes you the real racist"?

No the real tragedy is being called a racist, not actually being one.

 

[oti]

"Being racially insensitive is normal in Germany" is one of the weakest defenses I've heard for black/redface.

Usually how it goes for talks about racism in Europe.

Yeah no I'm out at this point.

 

[jonno394]

???

Are you going for "pointing this out makes you the real racist"?

No. I just find it funny how anyone who isn't completely ok with what's going on is automatically branded a racist

 

[Lime]

No. I just find it funny how anyone who isn't completely ok with what's going on is automatically branded a racist

What aren't you okay with?

 

[Buzzman]

European culture will be destroyed by the tides of immigration. It won't happen in my lifetime or the lifetime of my kids, grandkids or even great(great great)grandkids, but one day, the indigenous population of europe will be outnumbered by non-indigenous, and who knows what will be left of European culture.

As a dirty half-breed I laugh at you. I was born in Sweden and have lived here my entire life. Are you gonna tell me I'm not Swedish now? I don't espouse "European culture" because my skin-tone isn't the same as yours?

 

[SirJackDaniels]

Never knew the whole Liverpool/ Man City team was black...

They are dressed up as Yaya and Kolo Toure.

Whats even more disgusting this photo won a prize as best football related carnaval picture for a big dutch football website.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

No. I just find it funny how anyone who isn't completely ok with what's going on is automatically branded a racist

Well, your narrative with all the talk from outsiders destryoing the own culture is actually used a damn lot by racists.