Batman v Superman Spoiler Thread: Don't believe everything you read, Son

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Saya said:
Do people pay attention to these movies? Batman was avoiding Doomsday laserbeams and shit because he's just a man. He can't do much. He did distract and weaken him later in the fight with the Kryptonite grenade he had left after the Superman fight.

Wonder Woman was there to retrieve a photograph from Lex that belonged to her. And stayed to help fight Doomsday.
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yes I pay attention, retrieving a photo isn't a Story Arc. And yes she was awesome at the fight, already said that.
 
AlfredX1990 said:
Even among those who liked it, can't agree on why they liked it, this is the perfect definition of a Zack Snyder movie
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I like that it is a David Lynch Superhero movie I guess.
When it tried to be serious was the worst parts but bats carrying Bruce and other things like that were great.
The court room scene was so surreal that IDK how it happened.
 
My verdict on whether I thought the movie was just "eh" to "decent" hinges on how I perceive these characters in this new interpretation.

Batman as a killer? Not necessarily a fan, BUT, if he were just good ol' Batman we know from the other movies and the comics, this Batman would be offensive just for the killing aspect. However, the fact that the movie makes a couple efforts to tell you that this Bruce Wayne is damaged and a unhinged from lines like Bruce deciding to not make promises anymore (like not promising to 'not kill'), to the clear indication that the 'good guys' are gone, makes it an interesting interpretation of the character for me.

I hate fanboy culture's almost religious-like effort to condemn an interpretation of a character because of a change that might be taken out of context, such as Batman "killing" as opposed to the movie giving you indicators as to why he might be a killer. I don't prefer a killer Batman myself of course, but I also feel like I'm not so close-minded as to forever be offended at an interpretation of him when the controversial aspect of the character isn't just there as a lazy oversight.

Superman is a whole different story though when it comes to these movies, just because I feel like the character and tone of these movies totally betrays the core of that character, whereas with Batman, he fit in this movie. The darker tone, the visuals, Batman felt like he fit here, but Superman just.....doesn't.

I want to say more, but I feel like I'll just ramble on forever.
 
Did anyone like the Cyborg bit? Aquaman stared at the camera too long but at least he looked cool, and The Flash in the convenience store was at least better than the fucking Crisis in Bruce's Dream bit.

Can Cyborg, kill Ezra Miller's Barry at the start of his movie and bring in black Wally (w/ Waid/DCAU personality) as the hero with a normal costume. Diversity and a do over all in one.
 
otakukidd said:
You can't have 3 crazy dream sequences and have one of them being a vision of the future. It makes no God damn sense. They should of cut the first 2 and have all 3 take place in the knightmare world. Then you have the flash show up.
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Three?

Don't sell Snyder short.

There are five dream sequences in this movie.

Intro is a dream (narrated by Batman to absolutely nobody btw)
Manbat dream
Knightmare dream
Flash dream
Pa Kent dream

What. What is this.
 
ZeroX03 said:
Did anyone like the Cyborg bit? Aquaman stared at the camera too long but at least he looked cool, and The Flash in the convenience store was at least better than the fucking Crisis in Bruce's Dream bit.

Can Cyborg, kill Ezra Miller's Barry at the start of his movie and bring in black Wally (w/ Waid/DCAU personality) as the hero with a normal costume. Diversity and a do over all in one.
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I liked Cyborg alright. I agree that the placement of the whole sequence was awkward, though.

jett said:
Three?

Don't sell Snyder short.

There are five dream sequences in this movie.

Intro is a dream (narrated by Batman to absolutely nobody btw)
Manbat dream
Knightmare dream
Flash dream
Pa Kent dream

What. What is this.
Click to expand...

Flash dream is part of the Knightmare dream, dude. He doesn't wake all the way up from the Knightmare until after that.

And I think Pa Kent might have been a hallucination or something.
 
ZeroX03 said:
Did anyone like the Cyborg bit? Aquaman stared at the camera too long but at least he looked cool, and The Flash in the convenience store was at least better than the fucking Crisis in Bruce's Dream bit.

Can Cyborg, kill Ezra Miller's Barry at the start of his movie and bring in black Wally (w/ Waid/DCAU personality) as the hero with a normal costume. Diversity and a do over all in one.
Click to expand...

They fucked up with aquaman. He was so awesome in the New 52 comics, and in this movie they made him look dumb.
 
The sight of Cyborg on a giant circuit boards was kinda neat. Though I bet it would be easier to print an entirely new body/real flesh than create whatever crazy metal that was.

Cool to see Miles Dyson / Smallville's 'first' Prof. Hamilton as his dad lol
 
Knightmare and the metahuman videos were lame af.

I will say that the opening with the Wayne murders was good. Between that and Watchmen Snyder sure does opening scenes well.
 
Aquaman stared at that camera for twenty seconds. He should know what a camera is. He should've look at it for two seconds just so we get a glimpse of what he looks like then the cool camera smack.

Instead it was like "look, it's Jason Momoa! Don't you remember this guy from Game of Thrones? Pretty fucking cool right. He's got nice tattoos and apparently is too stupid to realize he's being filmed. You got a close enough look yet? No. Okay. How's your day been? You should try the new sandwich joint in downtown, the chicken club is damn good. Oh so you've finished taking in Game of Throne's Jason Momoa as Aquaman? Great. Now we can cut away."
 
Poodlestrike said:
...

Okay, ignoring the sudden change in criteria from "any character development" to "this specific piece of character development..."

Bruce Wayne starts out regarding Clark Kent as the latest obstacle to be run over in his crusade. As the most dangeous rogue in his gallery. A threat so unbelievably potent, unbelievably dangerous, that it cannot be allowed to exist. That the whole world can be categorized like that; he's even come to regard himself as nothing more than a criminal, albeit one that hunts others. So he's in kind of a dark place. A place that only gets darker as the movie progresses and he gets pushed further over the edge by Lex's manipulations.

Meanwhile, Clark Kent is wrestling with what it means to be Superman. He's becoming frightened of the effect he can have on the world, wondering if he really has the right to pull these levers. So when he sees what Batman has begun to do (and he's only begun, the branding really does seem to have happened more than once), and it disgusts him. So he begins to tackle the threat of the Bat-Vigilante as Clark Kent, as opposed to Superman.

By the middle of the movie, things are coming to a head for both characters. Clark has left the building entirely, just about, feeling that Superman causes more damage than he heals. And Batman is prepping for outright deliberate murder. But then... Clark comes back. Because he loves Lois, because he's come to realize that his actions having consequences isn't something that would go away if he had no powers. That you can't save everybody, but you can never stop trying.

Then, Lex has his mother. Superman rejected the fight on his own terms, but he's forced into it by Lex. So he decides, he's going to approach Batman, not as a foe, but as a person. One who he believes still has good in him, a far cry from his views earlier in the movie. Batman, meanwhile, is lagging behind in his epiphany. So while Superman is just trying to subdue Batman long enough to convince him to help, Batman is really trying to murder Superman. And he very nearly does. Until Superman says the Martha line. And Batman is suddenly shocked into remembering that the people he fights aren't just criminals, or monsters, they're people. It's something he clearly hasn't thought about for a very very long time. And the shock of that is enough for him to help Superman rescue his mother.

And then Superman dies. Twice. And this links back to the "men are brave" thing. Because Batman's whole thing with that was that you have to be able to feel fear to be brave. That Superman's inhuman strength and toughness makes him less, makes him incapable of being a hero. And then he's shown to be wrong. Batman at the end of the movie is ready to begin trying to heal, a far cry from the burned out shell of a man at the beginning.

And that's character development.
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Nice try.

You should re-read what I wrote. I said, their relationship wasn't built in any meaningful way, meaning, they didn't have an arch together. Most of what you wrote was the arch that they had independent of each other. Where they met in the center had no real meat as a result, because they barely even knew each other before one was killed...after hating each other for 3/4s the film..

Their mutual change of heart came from a shared mother's name. That wasn't gradual, that wasn't deep. It wasn't meaningful and plus, when Bruce tries to kill Clark, he doesn't have a point where he comes to Superman's aid in a meaningful fashion, giving us, the audience the same investment that Bruce should have.

And it's not a mistake that it came off as rushed or flimsy, because, they tried to build a relationship in 1 movie's time. The kind of emotional connection, build up you would need can't be don't in one film.

That's why Nolan didn't kill
Rachel until movie 2.
Because we have to be as invested in all this as the onscreen characters are. For that moment of loss to have weight, we have to care.

So no, to me and many others, the character development of these characters didn't quite hit the mark.
 
jett said:
Three?

Don't sell Snyder short.

There are five dream sequences in this movie.

Intro is a dream (narrated by Batman to absolutely nobody btw)
Manbat dream
Knightmare dream
Flash dream
Pa Kent dream

What. What is this.
Click to expand...

maybe the whole movie is a dream and justice league start with superman in bed with Lane. "Honey I had the weirdest dream, like that movie Inception"
 
labx said:
dude but is BATMAN the only real super hero out there. He has balls. At least throw to dumb doomsday a bat shuriken.
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He had already done his fare share of awesome. He wasn't ready for what was about to unfold. It's great he's not an equal in terms of strength.

hwy_61 said:
That cameo should've been quicker than what it was. Instead we got like 10 seconds of some weirdo staring at us.
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It honestly looked like someone recording an underwater hobo. It's the type of stuff you upload to Twitter and get outrage of.
 
Poodlestrike said:
...

Okay, ignoring the sudden change in criteria from "any character development" to "this specific piece of character development..."

Bruce Wayne starts out regarding Clark Kent as the latest obstacle to be run over in his crusade. As the most dangeous rogue in his gallery. A threat so unbelievably potent, unbelievably dangerous, that it cannot be allowed to exist. That the whole world can be categorized like that; he's even come to regard himself as nothing more than a criminal, albeit one that hunts others. So he's in kind of a dark place. A place that only gets darker as the movie progresses and he gets pushed further over the edge by Lex's manipulations.

Meanwhile, Clark Kent is wrestling with what it means to be Superman. He's becoming frightened of the effect he can have on the world, wondering if he really has the right to pull these levers. So when he sees what Batman has begun to do (and he's only begun, the branding really does seem to have happened more than once), and it disgusts him. So he begins to tackle the threat of the Bat-Vigilante as Clark Kent, as opposed to Superman.

By the middle of the movie, things are coming to a head for both characters. Clark has left the building entirely, just about, feeling that Superman causes more damage than he heals. And Batman is prepping for outright deliberate murder. But then... Clark comes back. Because he loves Lois, because he's come to realize that his actions having consequences isn't something that would go away if he had no powers. That you can't save everybody, but you can never stop trying.

Then, Lex has his mother. Superman rejected the fight on his own terms, but he's forced into it by Lex. So he decides, he's going to approach Batman, not as a foe, but as a person. One who he believes still has good in him, a far cry from his views earlier in the movie. Batman, meanwhile, is lagging behind in his epiphany. So while Superman is just trying to subdue Batman long enough to convince him to help, Batman is really trying to murder Superman. And he very nearly does. Until Superman says the Martha line. And Batman is suddenly shocked into remembering that the people he fights aren't just criminals, or monsters, they're people. It's something he clearly hasn't thought about for a very very long time. And the shock of that is enough for him to help Superman rescue his mother.

And then Superman dies. Twice. And this links back to the "men are brave" thing. Because Batman's whole thing with that was that you have to be able to feel fear to be brave. That Superman's inhuman strength and toughness makes him less, makes him incapable of being a hero. And then he's shown to be wrong. Batman at the end of the movie is ready to begin trying to heal, a far cry from the burned out shell of a man at the beginning.

And that's character development.
Click to expand...
You took the words off my tongue. This is what I say the movie has a Good story, it works, it makes sense. I just feel it wasn't communicated clearly enough. You and I, as fans, get this. The audience might or might not. I still don't know super clearly for example what were Lex's motivations. I get what they were trying, but I don't know it. It's weird, and a shame. A movie without those problems would be on the upper echelon.
 
ZeroX03 said:
Aquaman stared at that camera for twenty seconds. He should know what a camera is. He should've look at it for two seconds just so we get a glimpse of what he looks like then the cool camera smack.

Instead it was like "look, it's Jason Momoa! Don't you remember this guy from Game of Thrones? Pretty fucking cool right. He's got nice tattoos and apparently is too stupid to realize he's being filmed. You got a close enough look yet? No. Okay. How's your day been? You should try the new sandwich joint in downtown, the chicken club is damn good. Oh so you've finished taking in Game of Throne's Jason Momoa as Aquaman? Great. Now we can cut away."
Click to expand...

Exactly. In and out. Again, when you think of how much of a badass aquaman is in his most recent comic series, it's disappointing that this is how we got a first look in a movie.
 
jett said:
Three?

Don't sell Snyder short.

There are five dream sequences in this movie.

Intro is a dream (narrated by Batman to absolutely nobody btw)
Manbat dream
Knightmare dream
Flash dream
Pa Kent dream

What. What is this.
Click to expand...
Dude I saw bruce flying in the first dream and I'm like "fuck this isn't going to go well"


I'm still really pissed they ruined the doomsday reveal in the effing trailers. Why are you going to show him and then do the death of superman. He should be a pleasant surprise.
 
ryutaro's mama said:
Nice try.

You should re-read what I wrote. I said, their relationship wasn't built in any meaningful way, meaning, they didn't have an arch together. Most of what you wrote was the arch that they had independent of each other. Where they met in the center had no real meat as a result, because they barely even knew each other before one was killed...after hating each other for 3/4s the film..

Their mutual change of heart came from a shared mother's name. That wasn't gradual, that wasn't deep. It wasn't meaningful and plus, when Bruce tries to kill Clark, he doesn't have a point where he comes to Superman's aid in a meaningful fashion, giving us, the audience the same investment that Bruce should have.

And it's not a mistake that it came off as rushed or flimsy, because, they tried to build a relationship in 1 movie's time. The kind of emotional connection, build up you would need can't be don't in one film.

That's why Nolan didn't kill
Rachel until movie 2.
Because we have to be as invested in all this as the onscreen characters are. For that moment of loss to have weight, we have to care.

So no, to me and many others, the character development of these characters didn't quite hit the mark.
Click to expand...

Im pretty sure Poodlestrikewatched a completely different movie then everybody else...

Perhaps he got the special 30+ minutes ultimate cut? lol
 
Haven't seen many mentioning it, so I wanted to bring up how Jimmy Olson is executed in the Africa scene. To me that's the darkest, most cynical part of the film.
 
Just saw it. That was a piece of shit!

So much to take in, so little focus. What a mess.

I guess Ben Affleck was fine as Batman, but it's just a mess.
 
otakukidd said:
Dude I saw bruce flying in the first dream and I'm like "fuck this isn't going to go well"


I'm still really pissed they ruined the doomsday reveal in the effing trailers. Why are you going to show him and then do the death of superman. He should be a pleasant surprise.
Click to expand...
Honestly I did not get why they were acting like it was a big reveal. Trailer should have not shown it so at least you can go "Doomsday surprise!"
 
Metahuman scene should've been a cool 30 second montage. We didn't need to see things like Wonder Woman clicking between the folders and choosing a video to play.

The editing in the movie is all over the show. Some stuff was cut way too long, and other stuff was really abrupt. Considering how much footage they've supposedly filmed, I'm pretty sure with a better editor (and a less intrusive director) there's a great film in there somewhere.
 
Did anyone catch the GL references? Heard Ferris mentioned once but that's it and I think that was someone in the army called Ferris.

Snippets of other heroes were nicely done.

Was that a motherbox putting Cyborg together?
 
ZeroX03 said:
Metahuman scene should've been a cool 30 second montage. We didn't need to see things like Wonder Woman clicking between the folders and choosing a video to play.

The editing in the movie is all over the show. Some stuff was cut way too long, and other stuff was really abrupt. Considering how much footage they've supposedly filmed, I'm pretty sure with a better editor (and a less intrusive director) there's a great film in there somewhere.
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yeah in our hearts... there is the great movie.
 
ryutaro's mama said:
Nice try.

You should re-read what I wrote. I said, their relationship wasn't built in any meaningful way, meaning, they didn't have an arch together. Most of what you wrote was the arch that they had independent of each other. Where they met in the center had no real meat as a result, because they barely even knew each other before one was killed...after hating each other for 3/4s the film..

Their mutual change of heart came from a shared mother's name. That wasn't gradual, that wasn't deep. It wasn't meaningful and plus, when Bruce tries to kill Clark, he doesn't have a point where he comes to Superman's aid in a meaningful fashion, giving us, the audience the same investment that Bruce should have.

And it's not a mistake that it came off as rushed or flimsy, because, they tried to build a relationship in 1 movie's time. The kind of emotional connection, build up you would need can't be don't in one film.

That's why Nolan didn't kill
Rachel until movie 2.
Because we have to be as invested in all this as the onscreen characters are. For that moment of loss to have weight, we have to care.

So no, to me and many others, the character development of these characters didn't quite hit the mark.
Click to expand...

It's NOT a mutual change of heart. It's what starts Batman on the last part of his arc. Superman is already there.

And you're being crazy conservative with the definition of relationship here. Is how two people perceive each other not a relationship? Batman comes to the realization that he's terribly wrong about, well, everything in that moment, that moment where he realizes that he was wrong about Clark, about his development, about what kind of person he is, or that he's a person at all. It's not even that their mothers have the same name, it's the sheer shock of the moment, hearing his mother's name on his enemy's lips, pleading with him to save her.

And then he does. Which idk, I'd call rendering assistance.
 
illmatic22 said:
Can anybody explain the Flash scene?
I heard him say Lois Lane is the key and "you were right about him"?
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It's a really stupid scene that seems to be referencing Injustice's bad Superman storyline, while also using a time traveling Flash to send the warning ala Crisis on Infinite Earths while also being in a dream within a dream sequence. Of course this is just coming out of a dream with Parademons in it, so clearly someone is beaming shit into Bruce's brain.

coie2.jpg
1649657-crisis_on_infinite_earths__2_batman_flash.jpg
 
FlutterPuffs said:
Yeah, but it's a thought when he was at his low point.

Even Batman realised that it was wrong in the end. The point of the movie is that people CAN stay good.
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That isn't the point. That's the speech made at the end. At no point do we see Superman OR Batman struggle with this idea beyond stating it and then when Bruce sort of kind of retracts that statement at the end. In fact the movie seems to be about how the human race is fucked and Clark should tell them to fuck off, if I understood both Pa and Ma Kent's speeches correctly. In fact this Superman really only seems to be interested in saving Lois, and seems to do everything else out of some feeling of obligation that he seems to even resent in parts of the movie.

I would argue no one stays good. Batman starts killing and branding people, Superman arguably isn't even good to begin with and driving someone through a wall to kick things off doesn't help. This is followed up by looking pissed when he sees people questioning him on TV and reluctantly showing up at a hearing only to stand there and mope after a bomb goes off instead of trying to at the very least look for survivors. Then he stares with pure hatred at Batman while he attempts to kick his shit in despite knowing full well what Luthor's "plan" is. Ma and Pa Kent come across as selfish and cynical people, Perry White tells Clark that it's not the 1930s anymore and people should stop trying to stand for anything, and Thomas Wayne attempts to throw the first punch.

What a shitshow.
 
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