it was more "those quips were in line with the characters they were coming from and without them the characters wouldn't have been an accurate portrayal of who they were supposed to be"
I enjoyed Batman v Superman more than Civil War, who is with me?
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it was more "those quips were in line with the characters they were coming from and without them the characters wouldn't have been an accurate portrayal of who they were supposed to be"
DryEyeRelief
Member
This is one of those instances where dudes in here just think about comic book accuracy and nothing else huh
Like if they did a movie on Arrow from the tv series, and it had the same lines that make you think, "no one in real life talks like this", am I going to give it points for being accurate to the show?
haven't seen arrow so I can't comment
but yes having a version of spider man that doesn't quip would be stupid
but he was pointing out that not every character actually quips regularly...
Black Panther in particular aint got time for that shit.
DryEyeRelief
Member
Maybe that's already past the quip threshold
I'm still reeling over "He's played by Paul Rudd". What kind of explanation is that?
I guess he never felt he needed to at first. Remember, he was trying to reason with him at first but was then severely provoked more than once. This was right after he was overwhelmed by the fact that his foster mother has been kidnapped and beaten. When he felt that there was no other way out, he felt he had to use his trump card - that's my take on it.
I agree with you that it conflicts with Bruce's doctrine speech, but at the same time Bruce is human and his experience may change some of his sternest beliefs, especially one that is tied to his most emotional chapter of his life that not only haunts him to this day as a 40+ year old adult, but also drives the Batman forward.
Don't get me wrong though, even as one of the film's biggest fans in this forum, I agree with you that it would have been better for the director to have made this clear in the film, especially as it is a pivotal point in the film.
I felt like I wrote this myself. 100% agree with everything here.
You're 100% wrong given all Ant-Man did was disable one of his arm cannons, and it was Ant-Man who was making jokes.
If you can't even remember that basic event, how is someone supposed to trust the basis of your opinion on the film?
Except
Bucky assassinating Tony's parents was revealed in TWS, not CW. It was not an "11th hour revelation".
I liked them both, and Enjoyed them the both the same.
He just pointed out a bunch of characters that said no such "quips" in the airport fight. He specifically pointed out the two characters who did, absolutely should have, because they were both comic characters (including Spider-Man, whose quipping during fights is a major part of his character and has been for many many years).
I'm tempted to download a bootleg version just to watch this again. I surely remember as that was the part I got put out of the movie.
tkscz
Member
After watching both, I see these movies as being on par with one another. From where I stand, both movies have their goods that are REALLY really good, but both have their bads that really bring the movie down.
Civil War is a fun movie, when fun things are happening. In between the action and fun is a boring movie. A friend I went with went to sleep during those scenes. The character interaction was just stilted. It felt like the only reason they interacted was to see who was whose rival when the team fight started. The
Then
But even with these issues, the movie is still worth watching, even if it's for the action scenes which are plentiful. This movie was obviously made more for the action than the story or characters.
Batman v Superman is an interesting movie to watch. The characters don't really react to each other (regardless of the name of the movie) but instead with the world around them. It's more focused on the idea of how they are reacted to be the world and themselves, then it is the characters actually knowing one of another. It's worth seeing and remains interesting as the movie goes on, but as we all know the movie has parts that are either wasted or make little to no sense.
.
. But like with Civil war, there is enough that's interesting about it to make it worth a watch.
So as far as I'm concerned, these movies are equal in quality and are both worth watching.
Civil War is a fun movie, when fun things are happening. In between the action and fun is a boring movie. A friend I went with went to sleep during those scenes. The character interaction was just stilted. It felt like the only reason they interacted was to see who was whose rival when the team fight started. The
villain's motives were not interesting at all, especially considering it was fucking zemo, one of the more interesting (depending on which Zemo it is) Cap villains out there. You can tell he was only there to be a foil for Black Panther, when he needs to realize that revenge is not a path to take. Zemo himself was just boring. He didn't feel threatening, he didn't feel necessary, he just felt wasted here.
the story was super predictable. I have no issues with cliches, they happen, get over it. But this just used too many to link the action scenes together. Holy shit, why didn't Bucky just say I didn't do it, or even attempt to explain himself. He did it like once, and it was WHILE he was fighting Panther. Why didn't he let Tony know that once he hears that code he is no longer in control of his actions. Tony is impulsive, but at least try to get him to understand. And Panther's stubbornness got really annoying really fast, so he was very much like his comic counter part.
There was no Betty Ross, but that was just a nitpic. Comic-GAF knows I love me some Red She-Hulk.
Batman v Superman is an interesting movie to watch. The characters don't really react to each other (regardless of the name of the movie) but instead with the world around them. It's more focused on the idea of how they are reacted to be the world and themselves, then it is the characters actually knowing one of another. It's worth seeing and remains interesting as the movie goes on, but as we all know the movie has parts that are either wasted or make little to no sense.
Wonder Woman is barely in the movie and she feels like a certified cameo than a character, so she feels wasted. Like there was more she could've been doing
Lex's motivations for the hate of superman was paranoia, but we already had that from Bruce and other characters, and yet he still behaves like the reason he hates superman is because of the power he has. He also brings in the kryptonite illegally anyway, so the interaction with the senator felt pointless.
And as others pointed out, the fight scenes that didn't revolve around batman were kind of boring. Batman's solo fight was amazing, but Superman vs Doomday and SM, BM and WW vs Doomsday felt repetitive. And the main event, Superman vs Batman, was too short, and could've been easily avoided, so you're brought out of it.
So as far as I'm concerned, these movies are equal in quality and are both worth watching.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
Didn't Lex also gave Superman an hour to kill Batman, in addition to the fact that his mum is in grave danger? Given these 2 points, it make lesser sense as to why he wouldn't use this 'trump card' to resolve the fight (or even prevent the fight) ASAP instead of waiting until he's on the verge of losing. There are a couple of chances where he could do so, such as the rooftop where he tells Batman to stay down.
you remembered wrongly.
There are people on FB and other comic book forums that agree with the OP....thinking that BvS is better isn't some sole-GAF thing.
Quip threshold. Huh.
It feels like people are arguing less for tonal consistency as they are monotony. Jokes are allowed in dramas people. Hamlet has fucking jokes. Empire Strikes Back, the much lauded "dark middle chapter" in the Star Wars trilogy, is full of fucking jokes. LEVITY IS OKAY.
I think an earlier poster hit the nail on the head when he said this is more an issue with Marvel being known for humor (thanks to two Whedon-helmed Avengers films) so any humor is sold as a massive distraction that robs the work of dramatic tension, which is just silly. Spider-Man riffing on the physics of Captain America's shield doesn't detract from the final fight in the films ending. Ant-Man marveling at meeting the legendary Steve Rogers doesn't somehow make Zemo's motivations feel like a comedic romp. And those light moments do not hurt the tone of the film as a whole, just like they didn't hurt Hamlet, or Empire Strikes Back, or the Wire, or any other drama.
They cast an actor with an extensive background in comedy to play a somewhat comedic role in a series of movies with a mostly lighthearted tone. It's actually one of the simplest explanations there is.
But "quip threshold" is a good one, I'll give you that one.
Rudd's not the best MCU actor, but he gets their tone as well as anyone.
I haven't watched Ant-man yet but Civil War did make me realize I wouldn't have cared for it. I didn't care for Ant-man at all. What made his scenes work for me was who he was playing against. Those characters are what saved those scenes for me. A entire film of him would have pissed me off I think.
Glass Rebel
Member
Technically Jeremy Renner is the best actor out of all of them. And I'm not talking about his role as Hawkeye.
Couldn't have put it better myself, bravo.
Your loss, it's a hilarious heist movie with some great out there concepts. Plus solid acting and really cool visual style for the shrinkage.
That and Michael Douglas playing off Paul Rudd is great.
Killing_Joke
Member
So here's my take. Lets do a complete breakdown.
-First the heroes. I enjoyed the combination of B/S then Cap and IM. This is a no brainier since I've already seen Cap/IM in a million movies already. Nothing new. Pretty much every time Batman was on screen it was a homerun so i enjoyed Batman out of the 4.
-Cameos. CW wins this one mainly because of Spider-man. Best part of the movie for me. Didn't care for BP that much. Ant-man and shockingly again Hawkeye I enjoyed as well. WW was fun in the final act but the JL stuff was bad. Really bad.
-Villains. Lex i found a lot more interesting than Zemo. Acting aside, his story was just more interesting.
-Fight Night. Thought the BVS fight was better. Airport fight was fun but started to drag when
came in. Doomsday fight was fun too.
-Story. I don't get how can someone like one more than the other. They are both identical to me.
Both were overall boring too me. So i can't decide which did what better in terms of execution. Tie i guess?
- BVS score was better. Nothing in CW or MCU in general sticks out to me ever.
-I would say CW was edited better since BVS was butchered to death while still being bloated. BVS had the better cinematography and the action was a lot smoother to follow.
So overall i liked both movies. Liked BVS more but wouldn't say it's a GOOD movie. Like i don't think CW is a good movie. Both generic and forgettable. They added nothing new to the genre and both suck because they are following the Universe formula instead of focusing being damn good on it's own. But at the end of the day they are still fun to watch.
Call me fanboy, delusional, or whatever you want. BVS wins. But both lose to Deadpool and wouldn't be surprised if x-men turns out better as well.
-First the heroes. I enjoyed the combination of B/S then Cap and IM. This is a no brainier since I've already seen Cap/IM in a million movies already. Nothing new. Pretty much every time Batman was on screen it was a homerun so i enjoyed Batman out of the 4.
-Cameos. CW wins this one mainly because of Spider-man. Best part of the movie for me. Didn't care for BP that much. Ant-man and shockingly again Hawkeye I enjoyed as well. WW was fun in the final act but the JL stuff was bad. Really bad.
-Villains. Lex i found a lot more interesting than Zemo. Acting aside, his story was just more interesting.
How Zemo got away with half the shit he did just bothered me too much. His motive didn't even make that much sense. He wanted IM to fight TWS and Cap...Which they already did. Or you know why didn't he just mail him a copy of the tape?
-Fight Night. Thought the BVS fight was better. Airport fight was fun but started to drag when
Giant man
-Story. I don't get how can someone like one more than the other. They are both identical to me.
Turning heroes into government puppets, framing people with bombs, bitter billionaire with parent issues, villains main objective is to get everyone to kill each other, heroes fight, heroes are friends, villain is locked in a cell, bigger threat is coming. See, identical.
- BVS score was better. Nothing in CW or MCU in general sticks out to me ever.
-I would say CW was edited better since BVS was butchered to death while still being bloated. BVS had the better cinematography and the action was a lot smoother to follow.
So overall i liked both movies. Liked BVS more but wouldn't say it's a GOOD movie. Like i don't think CW is a good movie. Both generic and forgettable. They added nothing new to the genre and both suck because they are following the Universe formula instead of focusing being damn good on it's own. But at the end of the day they are still fun to watch.
Call me fanboy, delusional, or whatever you want. BVS wins. But both lose to Deadpool and wouldn't be surprised if x-men turns out better as well.
Yep, I was never interested in the character before the movie but it definitely was a good one and got me excited for antmans return
Sorry, I didn't spoil anything because we're in a thread comparing two movies, so I'd hope everyone posting in it has seen the movie, and those reading it have as well so as to gain something out of it other than shallow platitudes and punctuation.
Folks, he knows Clark has a Mom.
He specifically thinks Clark is an alien who is an outsider.
Clark telling him to save someone as his last words means something.
You could take out Lois, but then Bats could think Clark is fucking with him and kill him anyways. Lois, someone he doesn't know who is decidedly human telling him this, tells Bats that he has become who he hates, Joe Chill. We could talk about the acting in the scene, which is a given since its Ben Fucking Affleck, but the point is made.
After Bats realises what he's become, a Jeremy Irons monologue made flesh, he immediately wants to not be that and do whatever he can to help. Him saving Martha is his personal redemption for not being a fighter that night in the alley.
To reduce this to Bats and him have moms is severely understating what was really going on. Again, its a comic book movie about two of the world's finest good guys punching each other, why they do it in the first place is always hard to swallow.
And Lex's plan was to make earth ready for Darkseid. He thought Clark would kill bats(his other potential threat), but be weak enough to get killed by doomsday. He didn't plan on the trio uniting.
Folks, he knows Clark has a Mom.
Bats said:
He specifically thinks Clark is an alien who is an outsider.
Clark telling him to save someone as his last words means something.
Your Favorite Scene said:
You could take out Lois, but then Bats could think Clark is fucking with him and kill him anyways. Lois, someone he doesn't know who is decidedly human telling him this, tells Bats that he has become who he hates, Joe Chill. We could talk about the acting in the scene, which is a given since its Ben Fucking Affleck, but the point is made.
After Bats realises what he's become, a Jeremy Irons monologue made flesh, he immediately wants to not be that and do whatever he can to help. Him saving Martha is his personal redemption for not being a fighter that night in the alley.
To reduce this to Bats and him have moms is severely understating what was really going on. Again, its a comic book movie about two of the world's finest good guys punching each other, why they do it in the first place is always hard to swallow.
And Lex's plan was to make earth ready for Darkseid. He thought Clark would kill bats(his other potential threat), but be weak enough to get killed by doomsday. He didn't plan on the trio uniting.
He probably would've but
he'd only just found the footage and used it when he was backed into a corner.
And how the heck didn't his motive make sense?
The Avengers inadvertently killed his family and got praised as heroes, sure Ultron was the driving force but he only existed because of the Avengers. It was simple revenge.
The one who's motive doesn't make any sense is Luthor, just... it's so awful.
Killing_Joke said:
That part was where it started to drag for you? Gat damn, it reached another level of quality for me when that happened.
Doomsday fight was a videogame cutscene in terms of emotional investment.
You should definitely give it a watch - it's pretty damn entertaining.
There seems to be a lot of confusion between "motive" and "plan". Zemo's motivation is super clear and possibly even easy to sympathize with. Luthor's is obtuse nonsense that has most people debating what his motivation even was.
But [Winter Soldier, Civil War, and BvS spoilers]
Winter Soldier already heavily implies that Bucky killed the Starks. And Civil War was building up to that revelation and Stark snapping because we see 1991 referenced a few times during the movie and early on the movie establishes that Tony still feels the sting of his parents' death. That is nowhere near as 11th hour as "suddenly Lex Luthor knows who Superman is and decides to go kidnap his mom and bring her to Metropolis in 10 minutes"
Exactly, I'm fine if people wanna get iffy about Zemo's plan but motive wise at least his was clear compared to Lex.
tkscz
Member
While true it still feels rushed in a way that's similar.
I just found it weird that Cap didn't even try to tell Tony that once hey hears a specific code, he loses all control. I mean, he told him the truth about his parents without attempting to explain the full situation. Tony was angry, I get that, but I immediately got the same feeling I did when Batman kept trying to fight Superman. It could've easily been solved with words over violence and the fight felt pointless.
Cap tries to tell Tony that Bucky was brainwashed by Hydra right before the fight starts and Tony just doesn't give a shit. Also I don't think even Cap knew about the keywords that Hydra used to jump start Bucky's kill-mode
Bucky told both Cap and Falcon when they had Bucky locked in that vice. "All he had to do was say the goddamn words."
orthodoxy1095
Banned
take that back right now.
tkscz
Member
I didn't even catch him telling Tony that he was brainwashed. Just heard him confirm Bucky did it. But it doesn't help that Tony found that Bucky was innocent of the bomb and didn't give him the benefit of the doubt. Still reminds me of Batman's paranoia.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Maybe, it's a bit iffy though.
Bucky wouldn't have needed to come out of hiding if he was on the other side of the world(not even necessarily in a remote place) and even if he did come out of hiding and it was obvious it couldn't have been him it would have gone down very differently. Stark's actions later in the film prove he was out for Bucky due to the UN attack.
That's good point about being encrypted but surely other people have looked into it. Isn't it at least a bit weird Stark himself hadn't already gone through all the files to learn everything about Hydra?
That's good point about being encrypted but surely other people have looked into it. Isn't it at least a bit weird Stark himself hadn't already gone through all the files to learn everything about Hydra?
I don't mind since I've already seen it but others might, even if they really shouldn't be in here if they're worried about spoilers
It'd be different if the title was spoiler tagged
Bucky's location is indeed a coincidence but it was a minor one, imo. As long as they found him, they would have still brought him in pretty much no matter what because they've been looking for him since the fall of SHIELD. You're right that he could have been somewhere extremely remote. Of all the flaws in the movie though, I didn't find Zemo's plan to be one, at least not in any significant sense. It's a movie, after all.
I had a bigger issue with the Siberia thing to be honest because whilst it does seem it's just a lucky coincidence that Stark, Bucky and Cap were the ones there it doesn't seem like Zemo had any kind of plan if it wasn't. He'd killed the other Winter Soldiers and if he hadn't caused the three to fight there wouldn't have been nothing stopping him from getting caught plus Bucky and Cap would have just peaced out. Sure if his plan had stopped there some Avengers would be in the raft but Zemo didn't really do anything to orchestrate the big airport fight. He had nothing to do with Ant-man, Wanda or Clint being there(or Spidey for instance).
It also set the groundwork the Justice League by getting Batman and Superman to team up as well as bring in Wonderwoman.
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