if only the defenders of the movie could answer this fucking question. What was the point of it all?
I enjoyed Batman v Superman more than Civil War, who is with me?
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if only the defenders of the movie could answer this fucking question. What was the point of it all?
One of my bigger issues with BvS. All the set up for Lex was done in fake interviews and prequel comics prior to the movie's release. Almost none of it is in the actual movie.
There's also a tremendous difference in saying one movie is better and having enjoyed a movie more. Go back and look at the OP and tell me which one of those he actually said. I'll give you a hint, the answer is in the thread title.
I'd also like to know why you think that somehow justifies the insults he received.
Just finished watching Civil war, and though I will see it again, it definitely wasn't as good as the hype would lead you to believe. BvS has some issues, but it's so much more interesting, from the themes, to the way it's shot. Civil War continues the tradition of being a decently shot movie, but it was still flat, with more shaky cam then usual, and some of the cgi and sets were really cheap looking, like black Panthers model falling in and out of the uncanny valley depending on his movements. Also, none of the somberness was earned, especially when they show footage of the various alleged incidents and the footage is just as sanitized as ever. And the ending reveal of bucky's sin is so over the top, it becomes cheap. That whole end was contrived really. And why are all the characters talking the same? Sam's quips are so bad in this, the one about not seeing someone in his suit "flying around" was such dad humor, it would of been said by cap in a Whedon film.
My major beef with civil war is the disrespect of black panther. I am a spider-stan, but not only is he not needed, he's harmful to the film. Anytime they start ratcheting up the stakes, they shove another scene of him in, which while great feel shot in a vacuum, and then go right back to some super serious show down scene. This relegates Tchalla to small moments that feel disparate and out of place. Then to top it off, they don't even put Black Panther on the "will return" button. Fuck you, marvel.
And besides the really tense moments after Zemo's final play, the action wasn't as enjoyable to watch as winter soldier, let alone BvS. That shaky cam for close fights, and erratic cuts did them no favors.
And speaking of comparisons, has anyone brought up that awkward unearned kiss cap and Sharon share? Everyone in my group thought that was really weird.
My major beef with civil war is the disrespect of black panther. I am a spider-stan, but not only is he not needed, he's harmful to the film. Anytime they start ratcheting up the stakes, they shove another scene of him in, which while great feel shot in a vacuum, and then go right back to some super serious show down scene. This relegates Tchalla to small moments that feel disparate and out of place. Then to top it off, they don't even put Black Panther on the "will return" button. Fuck you, marvel.
And besides the really tense moments after Zemo's final play, the action wasn't as enjoyable to watch as winter soldier, let alone BvS. That shaky cam for close fights, and erratic cuts did them no favors.
And speaking of comparisons, has anyone brought up that awkward unearned kiss cap and Sharon share? Everyone in my group thought that was really weird.
He says many words that talk about his relationship with his father, who to him was the most powerful being, and how nothing could stop him from harming lex. Think about being told how great your billionaire, philanthropist, abusive dad is. Lex learns to be a forward thinker, and believes that superman will follow in his father's footsteps. Same with Batman, who has seen even the best people(Harvey) become corrupt in the face of power. They both move to stop him, but lex knows he can't punch him, so he finds people who can, the metahumans/batman, which inevitably leads him to darkseid, who has touched both Batman(knightmare) and his mind(deleted scene for time).
Yeah I disagree with pretty much everything you said.
All those words you typed to back up this statement.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
There's nothing weird if you say you liked Civil War, considering its the best CBM in the last 2 decades or so. Liking BvS though? Now that's something that will make people goes "WTF" because there's no redeeming point to that movie.
this makes no sense. I think you and I watched a different movie. And if a deleted scene is the only way you can explain your theatrical cut, then you fucked up.
Yep pretty much. Always come to threads like this for the laughs. You can't get this kind of stuff for similar tripe like Grown-Ups 2, but because it's DC/Batman/Supes you get all kinds of fantastic and delightful contorted defenses.
CaptainofIndustry
Member
I can understand you liking Batman v Superman. I am not with you, though.
Batman and Superman are my favorites characters in fiction. Always have been and always will be, but Civil War just shitted all over the movie I had been waiting for my entire life. I absolutely adored Civil War and it made me realize just how disappointed I was with BvS. Those characters deserve so much better than fucking Snyder. He is just digging DC a grave and it's getting deeper with each movie. I'm so worried about what JL will be.
I really couldn't be more excited about Phase 3 for Marvel. They just have perfect casting and they don't betray their heroes. I hope DC can get there, someday.
I really couldn't be more excited about Phase 3 for Marvel. They just have perfect casting and they don't betray their heroes. I hope DC can get there, someday.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
People like stuff. If someone liking BvS makes you go "WTF" then you probably are too invested in the medium and need to take a break. I suggest Hawaii.
well it is hard to take any of your opinions seriously when you say find the 'tone' and 'themes ' of BvS better. If Spidey's inclusion was harmful to the movie, what about the forced inclusion of the Justice League stuff? How was Wonder Woman checking emails thematically or tonally great?
My problem with the film is that big-ass airport fight hurt the pacing of the movie. It could have been shorter for sure. All the tension just went away the minute Ant-Man and Spider-Man started joking around every 5 seconds.
Not sure if I agree with Bucky's revelation being cheap or BP getting disrespected though.
This x100. As a fun Marvel movie, yeah, cool, but it was in the wrong movie, at the wrong time, and it became more grating with the super dark (awesome) final act just following it
I work at a theater, so I've seen the film a few times. And yes, it's a comic book about two of the most famous good guys, literally fighting, getting them to do that it's always gonna be a stretch. But it makes sense within the films logic well enough, since it is the plan of a mad man. And yes, the film has been butchered by their hasty edit, but it still does everything it tries to do, if a little messy on the execution.
Spidey is gonna be Spidey in most situations. No one was out to hurt the other side during the airport scene. I don't see how it is a tonal shift to see certain characters behaving like you would expect them to.
this 'plan' of a mad man didn't make sense in the movie and it makes even less with your badly written 'explanation'.
this 'plan' of a mad man didn't make sense in the movie and it makes even less with your badly written 'explanation'.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Opinions. How do they fucking work, eh?
If anyone says Civil War was anything more than extremely shallow, fun entertainment I'll laugh at them. Lots of style, little substance. Like all the Marvel films. Best CBM in 20 years? You should make a poll in a new thread about that. I think you'll find an equally disagreeable and contrary thread accompanying that opinion.
All the relevant bits in his point were in the movie. Perhaps you weren't paying attention.
Glass Rebel
Member
The airport scene was amazing and is one of if not the best action sequence in any superhero movie. Came during the perfect moment too, just when things got almost too serious. There were several moments in the movie where the story could have gone either way if Cap and Tony had managed to agree with each other and this was one of them.
People keep forgetting that, with the exception of Black Panther, these characters weren't trying to kill each other. Most of them were friends for years. And even the people in the fight were aware of the goofiness of Spidey and Ant-Man. See Sam going "There's usually not this much talking" or the look Cap gave to Scott after they shot a fuel truck at Rhodey.
People keep forgetting that, with the exception of Black Panther, these characters weren't trying to kill each other. Most of them were friends for years. And even the people in the fight were aware of the goofiness of Spidey and Ant-Man. See Sam going "There's usually not this much talking" or the look Cap gave to Scott after they shot a fuel truck at Rhodey.
The idea that Spider-man and Ant-man hurts the tone feels like a fundamental misunderstanding of what tone is. To Captain America and Iron Man, this is a serious situations, so you don't see the two making jokes to one another.
Why the hell would Ant-man and Spider-man be serious about this? This is just a chance for them to hang out with their favorite heroes. Of course they're going to joke around and have fun. The idea that they shouldn't somehow implies that just because Tony and Steve are in a bad situation, that must mean EVERYONE is, and that's just dumb.
Besides, when everyone is feeling the same way about something, then the 'tone' isn't stable, it's just one dimensional and artificial. Having Spider-man and Ant-man be people who are in a generally good place helps emphasize how fucked the situation with Cap and Irons is. That helps make the depressing/serious tone of the final fight so much more effective for the fact that the entire movie isn't depressing/serious.
It's called variety, people. It's good for the movie and it's good for you.
Why the hell would Ant-man and Spider-man be serious about this? This is just a chance for them to hang out with their favorite heroes. Of course they're going to joke around and have fun. The idea that they shouldn't somehow implies that just because Tony and Steve are in a bad situation, that must mean EVERYONE is, and that's just dumb.
Besides, when everyone is feeling the same way about something, then the 'tone' isn't stable, it's just one dimensional and artificial. Having Spider-man and Ant-man be people who are in a generally good place helps emphasize how fucked the situation with Cap and Irons is. That helps make the depressing/serious tone of the final fight so much more effective for the fact that the entire movie isn't depressing/serious.
It's called variety, people. It's good for the movie and it's good for you.
yes Lex screaming like a mad man in a cell explain his whole motivation to pit Batman against Superman.......
Daddy issues and Darkseid....
roflwaffles
Member
lol I literally haven't heard a single legitimate answer to this question in the past month that this movie has been out.
Well said.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
And that's precisely why you'll have to explain yourself if you like BvS, because you might have seen or interpreted something as to what makes BvS good, which many other people missed.
Monocle
Member
Nailed it.
I'm 100% sure Tony Stark made a joke after almost dying by the fall when Ant Man destroyed his cicuits. That's not variety. That's tonal dissonance. But Marvel gonna Marvel, I guess.
I mean it seems pretty simple that he wanted to discredit and defame Superman.
He sets up the Senate bombing to show he can't rescue everyone.
He doesn't kill or try to kill him with the K... instead he sends him to battle Batman to either die at another's hand or kill a man proving that he isn't all good. While he killed Zod, he was an alien who posed a bigger threat to mankind than Batman ever did
Doomsday was a weird one. It seems like there was no plan with that, but by that point it seems like Luthor had gone off the deep end.
Wish there was a scene that shows when he snaps because it happens and by the end you know it.
He doesn't kill or try to kill him with the K... instead he sends him to battle Batman to either die at another's hand or kill a man proving that he isn't all good. While he killed Zod, he was an alien who posed a bigger threat to mankind than Batman ever did
Doomsday was a weird one. It seems like there was no plan with that, but by that point it seems like Luthor had gone off the deep end.
Wish there was a scene that shows when he snaps because it happens and by the end you know it.
Glass Rebel
Member
This never happened.
This sounds dumb as fuck. Why do they feel like we need jokes to make the situation lighter?
Who is they? Spidey and Scott were just being themselves.
but why? As as comic book reader I know why Lex views Superman as something to vanquish but this was not at all explained in the movie.
It's because as much as I like the movie and Lex, his plan didn't make any sort of sense. There are moments of a rational Plan that could have worked, but having Clark fight Bruce and unleashing doomsday at the same time didn't make much sense.
I would have had the Lex Kryptonian ship moments take place closer to the aftermath of the ending of MOS. Batman and Superman fight and become friends toward the middle of the film, some time passes and then doomsday escapes propmpting the fight.
Alternatively I would have skipped Doomsday entirely and would have the cripple dude be John Corbin and have him be Metallo a sympathetic villain that connects Batman and Superman together.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
That's almost lethal man!! Ever had a hand repulsor disabled? That's no fucking joke!
I personally don't see a problem with that...since it got pretty damn serious at the end.
And I said I preferred the airport fight scene to have been shorter...not devoid of humor. Yes Spider-Man was gonna make jokes, but the entire scene didn't have to last 15 minutes (or however long it was).
Keep in mind that jokes are also a coping mechanism many people develop to cope with stress. It's not just important to find jokes, but also see how Jokes are being implemented.
For example, "GIVE ME BACK MY RHODEY" may be a bit comedic due to the implementation, but Tony is dead serious about trying to save his best friend and his joke doesn't lessen that.
Meanwhile, Spidey fanboying doesn't convey stress but how fun he's having with the situation.
It's an important distinction. Humor isn't so one dimensional that it holds the same meaning for everyone.
I didn't want to feel like an old man yelling at clouds, but the quips were out of control in this movie. Was there a single serious scene without a quip? I felt the last act was raising the stakes for no reason, especially since Zemo would expect IronCrew to be keeping then busy. That bombshell could've been the fuel from the get go. Instead, Tony just looks like a dumb hypocrite.
It's obvious this was supposed to be Tchalla's coming out party, but the spider acquisition changed that.
No sorry, you should go see it again. Tony literally quips to cap in between threats. We don't need jokes every time something serious happens. And where is there the variety when all the characters talk the same?
This was the most serious Marvel film yet. And I was surprised at how deadpan serious the first half was.
No one in my theater laughed at anything (except for 1 guy).
Glass Rebel
Member
We also don't need fake seriousness that is inconsistent with the characterization of these people to create artificial drama.
I came out of Civil War with no lingering questions other than discussing with my friends how awesome the superheroes were, how I wished the movie would have continued longer, and how fresh it was.
When I came out of BvS, we were discussing the better alternatives the heroes and villian could take instead, counted how many times the characters had a proper conversation, all the whys, how bad the movie is edited (I really wanted to walk out the theatre when Wayne's Manor was flashed for the 5th time).
I'm so glad I don't have to do so much mental exercise after Civil War.
When I came out of BvS, we were discussing the better alternatives the heroes and villian could take instead, counted how many times the characters had a proper conversation, all the whys, how bad the movie is edited (I really wanted to walk out the theatre when Wayne's Manor was flashed for the 5th time).
I'm so glad I don't have to do so much mental exercise after Civil War.
I guess I should have said "relatively", because if you look at my second reply, I do mention that Stark still makes jokes.
But again, there is a difference in how jokes are implemented. That's an important distinction to have. The idea that humor defuses the tension, regardless of the context of how it's expressed, is erroneous.
Yeah absolutely, the movie is great, and it's the less comedic of the MCU movies so far, which fits the story, but still, there was that part.
That's literally the first half of the movie, which takes shots formerly shot with pomp, which are now ADR'd with screams over them.
Glass Rebel
Member
Tony in particular was great and RDJ really managed to sell it with a great performance. In the previous movies they had Tony joke even in the most serious situations because that's just how he deals with these things but here he finally broke, several times, because of the gravity of the situation and ends up shouting at Steve even before the third act. It was really well done imo.
I take it that was your favourite scene?
Since you're not me, I'm gonna have to disagree, since humor is subjective, and the quips constantly took me out of the film. Like the aforementioned falcon quip about his wings, just bad illogical quip right when the tension is rising.
I think some of it is there. Most, if not all of the problems with BvS are not ideas (which it has plenty of) but execution. You give these cryptic lines to a fast talking, obviously deranged individual and with a script more bothered with symbolism than clarity, it gets lost in the cracks. People think he would've made a better Joker than Lex, and they are not that wrong, but even Joker in TDK made more immediate sense while the script played with this idea of his "super sanity" and the way he keeps changing his scar story, his exchanges with the mob or Batman himself give you a much clearer idea behind his motivations. That's even when his plan assumes a lot of the people he is manipulating and asks us to make some leaps as an audience too.
Like, I think you can explain it as simply as: Lex was jealous and wary of this powerful individual when his own experience with dealing with his powerful, yet cruel father warped him to distrust that anyone with power can be good. I mean, good news I guess, because Supes isn't even the goody two shoes we know, but I guess he couldn't know that. This is a world that is both apparently terrified of Superman, yet asks us to believe they would build a statue to him in ground zero of the city he leveled. We as audience have the perspective of knowing it maybe didn't play out like that, but the world in general would certainly be fuzzier on the details, and it comes back to the execution, where the movie wants it to be both ways. (Example, the "he saved us" scene in Man of Steel).
In any case, the way he goes about manipulating public perspective against him is really convoluted (magic bullets thingy), as is the way he tries to manipulate Batman into fighting him (which didn't need many other incentives because he was ready to kill the motherfucker regardless), and then the whole Doomsday plan is similarly "symbolic" yet completely undercooked and feels more in service of giving the team a common threat and the movie a big dumb CG ending.
On top of that, the movie kinda works against its own plot points (Batman realizing he is being manipulated doesn't amount to much), the bombing is a powerful way to silence Superman as much as it is to make him doubt the "goodness" of mankind, but the movie is very quick to clear up to its world that Supes is as much of a victim of it, and it shows him run away confused leaving us behind to wonder if we should even empathize with him anyway. The movie actually does a lot of work to silence Superman, and you get the feeling it is by design because it wants to tell us something "important", it wants to make us participant in this world where we are supposed to stand in awe at these god figures, but when it is at the expense of his character, well, most of the audience loses.
That's fair enough, I can't debate your experience.
But the point applies outside the MCU. Does any instance of humor take the gravitas out of any scene, regardless of context? In any movie, in any situation? I can almost guarantee that if you searched long enough, you'd remember a scene you saw that was funny, but still dead serious.
Humor is subjective, but how it's implemented still must be paid attention to, because not all jokes are used the same way.
Personally, at this point, I think it's less that the film has humor and more that marvel is known for their humor, while DC is not, and people go into thinking "Yup, there's another joke" as opposed to really analyzing how it's used, simply because it'd Marvel. I mean, I've never heard this as a regular criticism with the hundreds of other action movies before Marvel officially made it a staple of their films. Some specific instances, sure, but never the general argument of "if it's making me laugh, it can't be serious"
Edit: to be clear, this isn't a dismissal of your opinion in particular, just my thoughts on this criticism having become more common throughout the years. You never saw it as a recurring incident with action movies before Marvel took off, and I still rarely see it unless we're talking about marvel movies specifically, so I can't help but think this has more to do with Marvel itself having made it a trope of their movies than anything.
End spoilers for both movies
The 11th hour revelation that Bucky killed Tony's parents (under mind control no less) and that being the catalyst/fuel for their big fight in the end was the same lazy contrived trash as Lex kidnapping Superman's mom to make him fight Batman. I want to see them fight because their clash of ideologies comes to a head, not because of a misunderstanding and mommy issues. Completely robs the comflict of it's power.
Lol Why are we spoiling the movie in this thread?
You seem a bit spurned by Black Panther getting his screen time cut by Spiderman but what do you expect? At least Black Panther got his after credit scene first.
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