YesNOnoNOYes
Member
i love supes
come at me brus
>:C
ww is also great
come at me brus
>:C
ww is also great
I enjoyed Batman v Superman more than Civil War, who is with me?
- Thread starter TheDanger
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Not what I said, I was specifically talking about a expository scene that was cut but not needed because lex is half drooling at the end telling bats he's talking to the main bad guy. And I only mentioned it, because WB released it, no doubt due to backlash about lex's "poor" motivation. But continue shit posting.
johnnydrama
Banned
I'm definitely interested in seeing how the Ultimate Cut improves/changes the film, but at this point it's unclear what is added. You're gonna have crazies on both sides of the argument, but it's better to filter them out and just interact with the folks you think are presenting a level-headed argument.
One of the posts on this page is just straight up "DC fans are delusional and Marvel is slaughtering them". That's just nonsense.
Roland_Gunner
Member
Maybe so! Here's what happened in my movie (spoilers to come):
Action: Beats up a bunch of German cops, destroys an airport, various other criminal acts.
Consequence: LOL no,
he's hanging out in Wakanda, the most advanced country on the planet.
Action: His allies get arrested for the violent crimes listed above, and more, and are being held in prison in accordance with international law.
Consequence: Laws are for the little people!
Captain America breaks them out and then goes back to Wakanda
Action:
Hiding the fact the his old best friend killed his new best friend's parents. This is a big one!!!
Consequence: Iron Man's sad for a while and they fight. If anyone actually thinks this was a bad thing, don't worry the ending makes it painfully clear that its cool.
Consequence: Iron Man's sad for a while and they fight. If anyone actually thinks this was a bad thing, don't worry the ending makes it painfully clear that its cool.
So that's what happened in my version of Civil War, what about yours?
Even while I'm off mind that the movie tiptoed around some of these things, your post is still terrible and over simplifying the entire thing. Consequences can come around to character development. The status quo or entire planet doesn't have to tear in half for the film to come around in a gracious manner.
In my version, a very dubious person is the figurehead enforcing those laws.
Cap doesn't sign the accords because he doesn't want to be hired gun. What makes him go against the establishment is the faith in and love for a friend, his only connection to old life, a life where this friend was the only thing he had since he was 18. He recruits allies to his cause informing them they will be breaking laws. They do and his proven right. But the bad guy successfully drives a wedge between the two cornerstones of the Avengers. Now most of the team has to hide in a foreign country as fugitives.
this is what happened in the Civil war movie that I saw. Cap's actions had consequences and he regrets that they lead him to lose another friend. You seem to under the belief that incarceration is the only fallout which matters.
what is shit is using that scene to explain a characters nebulous "motivation".
johnnydrama
Banned
it was fine i guess. the airport scene was fun but the whole set up was kinda ehhh. hard to make the fight fun when its in this wide open space with nothing going on, you know? lucky ant man was there to pick up the slack
Roland_Gunner
Member
But there's no development.
The only thing Captain America feels badly about is not telling Stark who killed his parents. Which is a horrible thing! Any non-sociopath should feel that way. For the rest, all he's willing to concede is that Stark honestly believes his opinions. Nothing else
BUT HE DOESN'T LOSE ANOTHER FRIEND! The last scene makes that clear. If someone is willing to cover for you when you're running from a global manhunt, that person is your friend. Stark even has a way to contact him if there's a real problem.
Now this I can sign up to.
You've already proven you didn't watch the movie, or at least pay attention, so what do you know?
I don't know about this. Superman/Wonder Woman tag combo was pretty badass. On the other hand, Steve and Tony could have hashed things out multiple times throughout the movie but didn't because reasons.
When they were at the airport did Steve even bother to tell Tony that someone was headed to Moscow to potentially release 5 more Winter Soldiers?
seems like the majority didn't watch the movie or pay attention to it because they don't seem to have picked up on your 'oh, so profound' thematic elements.
Wonder Woman was pretty average. I can't think of a single scene where she impressed, and her coming to fight Doomsday at the end with the "Lel I thought she was with u!" line from Batman was so cringe.
In fact, ignoring the nonsensical story, that was my most glaring issue with BvS. Terrible, terrible dialogue. Like who green lighted that turd of a script?
Dreams-Visions
Member
Or, opinions actively working differently.
CW was fun, shallow, and easy to follow. BvS was sober, introspective, and hard to follow at times by its own problems. Some prefer sober, cold feels with good action and a core plot that leaves thought-provoking questions after the film. Others prefer straight-forward fun and good action with a plot that leaves it all on the table and wraps things up neatly enough.
Neither is wrong. Just different preferences for how they want to feel and have a story told to them. And lol at these "DC fans lol" posts. How people manage to actually get emotional enough to create make-believe fandom lines and camps and turn into rampaging fanboys is as entertaining as it is frightening. What the fuck.
plasmawave
Banned
There should be a fourth option "Deadpool chicka chicka".
A movie where a guy frets about getting accepted in a world that rejects him, but ultimately gives his love for them is profound? What about the 2 crosses behind
Still the best comic book movie of the year so far for me.
Assuming you're not trolling...
What part of BvS was introspective? It was a pathetic attempt at trying to be dark and gritty. What we got was a hollow pile of pretentious garbage aimed at appeasing the lowest common denominator. Actually, I think even the casual movie-goers could tell what a boring, uninspired film it was. The Jesus imagery. The unconvincing hatred Bruce apparently had for Supes that was instantly shattered upon Martha. How was Doomsday so quickly created, and wth exactly were Lex's motivations actually? Oh, I could go on and on...
It was only hard to follow because the producers didn't have a lick of a clue as to how to make a good film.
beyond_death
Member
I loved both and at this point in time, I can't say which one I like more. Both do different things better. Maybe when I watch them more times I can say for sure.
Folks need to get the quote right if you're gonna harp on it, he says, "you're going to let them kill Martha." Then shortens that sentence every time Batman responds and threatens to end him.
And Bats says repeatedly that superman isn't a man. That scene is Clark appealing to his humanity, so bats realises he's become Joe chill.
The movie is introspective, because it's literally a Jesus allegory, but Jesus has lasers for eyes and his dad's name isn't Jehovah.
At this point Superman and Batman have transcended normal superhero characterisations. They are cultural icons. Everyone has some sort of favoured opinion how they should be represented. So hard to please everyone. Unlike most new Marvel characters which are blank slate for audience.
Everyone understands that scene. I don't know why BvS fans keep trying to explain it like people don't understand what happened.
But even understanding what that scene was supposed to convey, it was extremely poorly done. Batman swings from, "I'M GOING TO MURDER YOU," to, "Let's work together to save the day, new best friend!" waaaaaaay too fast.
I think that instead of trying to use the fact that both of them had a mom named Martha for whatever reason, it would've been better if Superman had just said, "They're going to kill my mother." I mean, it doesn't even make sense for Superman to call his mom by her first name in that situation.
Also, I very strongly disagree that making something a heavy-handed Jesus allegory instantly makes it introspective.
BossDarkseid
Member
Lol no. BvS was sometimes cool visuals and a fairly kick ass but diet version of Wondet Woman wrapped up in an overly violent and dark Snyder vision of what superheroes should be.
Snyder is the guy who reads Watchmen and thinks the violence and rape are the main points.
I didnt overly love CW tho. Cap has been the least interesting character in two of his movies with the main story arcs really being about other characters.
Snyder is the guy who reads Watchmen and thinks the violence and rape are the main points.
I didnt overly love CW tho. Cap has been the least interesting character in two of his movies with the main story arcs really being about other characters.
He didn't try to say Martha. He tried to say Martha Kent but was cut off. It makes more sense if he is on his deathbed and tries to get a superhero to save a woman called Martha Kent than to say save his mother, he might not know who his mother is. But this opens up another can of worms related to Superman's secret identity and how people don't at least suspect him.
<3 <3 BvS was awesome.
I found the scene very convincing and easy to understand. Supes knew Batman's identity - at least since the party scene. Being a journalist, the least he could do is look into Bruce Wayne. Wayne, being one of the richest folks in Gotham, makes the story of his parents' murder more known. Supes, seeing that Wayne's mother's name is Martha as well ends up potentially saving him down the line. Hell, why would Supes say Mother? There's a far bigger trump card than that and it was the common name between their mothers. I see nothing dumb about it. He was on the verge of his death, you use that trump card. It worked - and it made sense why. Bruce Wayne is impacted by his parents moreso than anyone else. It made perfect sense IMO. And I absolutely loved that scene <3
BladeoftheImmortal
Member
Sorry OP, but you are wrong.
The Martha scene
I do want to say that both Zemo's and Lex's plans were silly and relied on coincidence. Zemo relied on
Bucky being in hiding near the UN meeting and no one questioning whether it was actually Bucky despite the fact that in The Winter Soldier one of our heroes used face altering tech.
It was also relies on [spoilerCap, Bucky and Stark being the only ones in Siberia. I guess it's a good job Falcon told Stark to go alone. If he would have taken Vision, Vision would have phased through that glass panel and he wouldn't have even had the chance to show the video. What was the plan if Stark wasn't there at all? What if other Avengers were and could defuse the situation?[/spoiler]
Also if all the Winter Soldier files were public surely the media would have dug through them and the truth of the Stark's death would have been massive news.
It's a good job the performances were so strong and that scene had real emotion and stakes because the ending could have totally fallen flat. That was really what Civil War succeeded at, scene-to-scene it was fantastic so the audience didn't get a chance to get bogged down in those details.
Nemesis121
Member
Both both movies share something, being too damn long, boring parts along the way, and both movies have an obsession, Bruce and his Martha fetish, and Disney and their Tony Stark fetish..
It feels like you either misread that scene, or just really wanted
Steve and Tony to become bitter enemies
The fallout between the two hasn't been resolved or forgiven and very much exists as a thread left to be resolved in Infinity War. Just because they had a falling out doesn't however make them enemies, the entire final act was spurred by Tony's emotions and Steve makes it very clear that he's understanding of that fact and that he is always there for him. Tony isn't going to suddenly turn around and use it to get him detained or to find him himself for round two because that's not how any person actually thinks or acts towards a former friend. The important moment will be when Tony uses that phone, and we all know it's not going to be until Thanos comes wreaking havoc i.e. only when there's no other choice. As for him allowing Steve to break the rest of his team out, they already establish the fact that he both wasn't aware, and didn't approve of the way they were being detained. Couple that with the fact that he doesn't have any problems with the rest of the team, and it's really a no brainer why he wouldn't get involved.
Perfect. I also like to add that while a 100% turn into bitter enemies may be full of (melo)drama, it's not nearly as interesting as
someone who isn't quite friends, but also isn't quite enemies, while still having an intense emotional connection. Having them be bitter enemies would just a denote a fundamental lack of respect for one another, and I like that they have that regardless of all else that goes down between them.
roflwaffles
Member
Zemo's plan is quite convoluted and doesn't really make much sense, similar to Lex's. Both rely on too many coincidences and don't feel like manipulations as much as random luck. Bruhl's performance was much more engaging though, whereas Eisenbergs was grating and annoying.
However, in execution, the emotional cords and physicality of the battle payoff are so well done in CW that I'm willing to forgive it while I'm watching - something that wasn't accomplished for me in the Batman/Superman fight. Not too big a fan of Tony going unreasonable berserker mode but it was better than having Batman treat Supes like Trump treats immigrants.
However, in execution, the emotional cords and physicality of the battle payoff are so well done in CW that I'm willing to forgive it while I'm watching - something that wasn't accomplished for me in the Batman/Superman fight. Not too big a fan of Tony going unreasonable berserker mode but it was better than having Batman treat Supes like Trump treats immigrants.
Boombloxer
Member
Agree, they always make these comparisons in Supes' films, and every single one of them has rang hollow, there's flat out not enough set-up to really make it shine--and there is more than enough material that has.
Also this. Deleted scene enhance understanding, not explain it.
Look at the regular version of Aliens and the Special Edition--they're both fantastic films, regardless of extra scenes or not. Same with Gladiator.
I'm going to watch it, but my hopes are not high.
He just watched his parents get murdered, when that memory is still quite fresh for him over not saying a proper goodbye. He also learned that his friend and teammate was hiding this from him, and his best friend did it. At that point, it wasn't about the accords, he was done--and he still didn't actually try to kill him (could've done so easily with the missile, instead he opts to stop him from escaping. So yes, he lost it, but still not to the point of willing to outright kill him.
That reaction is completely reasonable.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
That doesn't explain why he didn't utter it before or even in the middle of the fight. Uttering the name right before Batman stab him only illustrates that it is nothing more than a mere coincidence that even Clark Kent isn't aware of.
It also undermine Bruce's One Percent Doctrine speech to Alfred earlier on. He was talking at that moment about how they couldnt afford to take any chance, and then at the end of the fight he's fully trusting Superman and doesn't suspect anything or think it might be an act.
Perhaps the main problem is that we will never get a clear answer on this. If your theory is what the film makers has intended, they have done nothing to communicate to the audience about this. They didn't show Clark Kent doing a check on Bruce background and learn about his mother's name.
Yup. The moment Wayne realizes Supes has a mom, just like him. An Earth mom. Made Supes human. I saw that just fine.
Dude, fucking spoilers, man. Civil War literally just came out for a lot of people.
By the way though, Zemo's plan didn't actually rely on coincidence, it would have ultimately worked as long as Bucky gets convincingly framed. He didn't need anyone to come to Siberia for it to work, it's just more entertaining that they did.
Still it rely entirely on the fact that Cap would betray all of his teammates to save bucky, that some of those teammates would ally with with cap and thus create a gap in the avengers. All of which is purely coincidental, Cap could have said, ok let's arrest him, IT IS to save potentially countless lives. And the fact that Bucky get voluntarily frozen at the end just proves it. Cap could have just said, let's just arrest him, not kill him. The end result would have been better as we wouldn't have had all the rest.
Also why would he go illegaly save his wanted friend, against orders, against law dressed as Captain America and not go incognito?
It also relied on some of them being against the Accords, they could have all accepted as the accords weren't that bad honestly.. which is purely coincidence
Also why would he go illegaly save his wanted friend, against orders, against law dressed as Captain America and not go incognito?
It also relied on some of them being against the Accords, they could have all accepted as the accords weren't that bad honestly.. which is purely coincidence
The problem with the "he could have" rhetoric is that with it we would have so very very few movies, as it is applicable to almost any movie out there.
Bucky being captured was all according to keikaku. Him dying during the capture would have still likely caused a major rift but Zemo wanted him alive so he could interrogate him, remember? His objective was getting proof Bucky killed momma and poppa Stark.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
Even if teamCap signed the accord and/or hand Bucky over, the plan wouldn't change much. He'll still brainwash Bucky, and then probably send Stark a copy of the tape or even release it to the public on youtube in the end. He might even have some other plans if these still doesn't do the trick.
His aim is really to make some moves here and there to sow discord in the Avengers, to the point where it gets rotten from within.
I didn't even consider that people would come in here having not seen both but I've gone back and edited spoiler tags in. Sorry.
It still relied on Bucky being conveniently close enough to be plausibly framed. Plus if Bucky was in the middle of say Tibet, it would have meant little to no conflict could have arose because they wouldn't even have found him.
Even then it wouldn't have broke the Avengers because in the Airport scene it's made clear that they're not really enemies. It was the video that really broke Cap and Iron Man's friendship.
A couple of things.
First, Zemo's plan doesn't require Bucky to be near the UN meeting at all. His plan was just to get Bucky out of hiding. Also, Cap, Bucky, and Tony being in Siberia when he discovered the tape wasn't part of the plan, just lucky providence. Lastly, doesn't Zemo say that the Hydra files were largely encrypted, but suggested his background helped him decode much of it?
I don't mind since I've already seen it but others might, even if they really shouldn't be in here if they're worried about spoilers
It'd be different if the title was spoiler tagged
Bucky's location is indeed a coincidence but it was a minor one, imo. As long as they found him, they would have still brought him in pretty much no matter what because they've been looking for him since the fall of SHIELD. You're right that he could have been somewhere extremely remote. Of all the flaws in the movie though, I didn't find Zemo's plan to be one, at least not in any significant sense. It's a movie, after all.
Roland_Gunner
Member
None of this provides a justification for the movie we just watched. Early on we see that Rogers and Stark don't interact on a daily basis since Cap isn't aware Tony and Pepper broke up. So they're already out of touch with each other's daily lives, which is where we wind up at. The only difference is now they get to have a big reunion scene in the next movie.
In that sense, all Civil War does is set up the next movie. While that's great for Marvel's marketing it detracts from the film's message. They had just spent five minutes showing that Zemo "won" by driving the Avengers apart, then they turned around and take it all back. Winter Soldier is a much better film because Captain America does learn something about the new world he's living in. He is shaped by its events. Here the impacts are all plot based (being outside the US; being estranged from Stark), and then even that is undermined in the letter scene.
In that sense, all Civil War does is set up the next movie. While that's great for Marvel's marketing it detracts from the film's message. They had just spent five minutes showing that Zemo "won" by driving the Avengers apart, then they turned around and take it all back. Winter Soldier is a much better film because Captain America does learn something about the new world he's living in. He is shaped by its events. Here the impacts are all plot based (being outside the US; being estranged from Stark), and then even that is undermined in the letter scene.
That's a pretty weak rationale. It's perfectly within reason that Tony and Pepper only separated recently and it's not something he exactly wants to broadcast. Hell, especially since the teleprompter lady couldn't make the change fast enough for the presentation. That suggests it as the probable explanation, but even if you don't buy it, so what? So they don't keep in touch as much as they can. I have lots of friends I communicate with only sparingly but value them no less for it.
I mean, sure, if you believe the relationship can only exist in the catergories of "Perfectly okay" and "bitter enemies". The fact that Tony and Steve don't hate each other at the end only supports the films message, that in a situation where there are lines you can't cross, you should never seek to hate your opposition nor should you stop lines of communication. In many ways, it's the opposite and far more mature message of than how Batman nursed his hate boner for a year and a half without ever even considering to talk to Superman, to understand him as a person. He just writhed in bitter, impotent rage until he found a weapon by which he could murder the object of his hatred, and never considered any alternative lines of resolution. Having Steve always be there as Tony's friend, even when he holds to his disagreement with him, is a far more noble, sensible, and goddamn satisfying conclusion than the idiotically developed flop that Snyder calls Batman's character arc.
Roland_Gunner
Member
This is a really great interpretation of the film's message and ending. Far better than anything else I've seen so far. Without being able to see the conclusion again I can't say if I agree that is the message that the Russo's were trying to convey or if you're inputting stuff that really isn't there. This is consistent Black Panther's story arc in Siberia though.
Mass Appeal
Member
I have seen both movies twice now and obviously this is my opinion but Civil War is a 100 times better. BvS is just not a good movie...it's just a mash up of scenes put together with nonsense thrown in the middle. Most of the movie I am questioning why Snyder went is approach.
Watching Civil War was just a different experience. Both times I had a huge smile across my face because the movie is really awesome and the Russo's actually know wtf they are doing in the MCU while Snyder just doesn't understand the DCU....
Watching Civil War was just a different experience. Both times I had a huge smile across my face because the movie is really awesome and the Russo's actually know wtf they are doing in the MCU while Snyder just doesn't understand the DCU....
Ok. I saw Civil War yesterday.
I loved Civil War, I loved Batman V Superman.
Civil War was definitely put together better however it most certainly wasn't perfect. It had issues but it was a fun movie to watch. My main issue is that final fight.
Civil War's quips didn't bother me. In Age of Ultron it was bad.
I think I prefer it to Avengers which is still the best Marvel movie to me. When I finished watching Civil War, all I could think about was "Man, I really need to watch BvS again!"
I preferred BvS though, I felt it hit harder at certain points, especially the ending. Thats my opinion.
I loved Civil War, I loved Batman V Superman.
Civil War was definitely put together better however it most certainly wasn't perfect. It had issues but it was a fun movie to watch. My main issue is that final fight.
That coincident is just too much you know.
Civil War's quips didn't bother me. In Age of Ultron it was bad.
I think I prefer it to Avengers which is still the best Marvel movie to me. When I finished watching Civil War, all I could think about was "Man, I really need to watch BvS again!"
I preferred BvS though, I felt it hit harder at certain points, especially the ending. Thats my opinion.
DryEyeRelief
Member
lmao
You know every character in this movie quips so I don't get the "too many quips" complaint.
That's not a retort.
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