France considers new ratings and incentives to combat sexism in video games

S

Spring Drive

Banned
// Mod Edit:

Just adding in some clarification here.

The proposal:

Nirolak said:
Okay, so re-reading the OP, the proposed measures seem to be:

1.) Expand the PEGI discrimination tag to also include sex discrimination instead of just ethnic and religious discrimination. This is a label that gets you a PEGI 18 rating and has some advertising implications like no primetime tv commercials, but already exists for ethnic and religious discrimination.

2.) Give new, additional tax incentives to games that promote a positive view of women, as assessed by currently unknown criteria, but it's been implied it would include BG&E and Dishonored 2 (where the leading woman is optional).
Click to expand...

As for what discrimination entails:

univbee said:
So as a French speaker I actually read the proposal and some of you are making a much bigger deal about this than necessary.

First, they fully acknowledge that PEGI 18 games already represent a third of all game sales in Europe and have some of the biggest budgets. i.e. nobody is hurting because their game is PEGI 18.

Second, their examples for things which would fit under what they're going for are: actual discrimination (e.g. some clear 'one sex/gender is unfairly inferior/superior to the other' element, which in this context would be more in the context of 'this sort of thing in a work environment would create legal problems for the company'), sexual violence (assault/rape, and this would have to be actually sex-related versions of those crimes, e.g. Double Dragon would probably be fine), and "use of sexual insults/slurs" (which would include things like "slut, bitch, whore, cunt" and the like). Based on my reading of the way it's presented, I don't think they're saying "anything which doesn't pass the Bechdel test gets a PEGI 18 rating" (even the actual Bechdel test isn't intended to be an 'all movies must pass it' thing, but just to spot trends and see what percentage of movies overall pass the test or nor) or anything like that. Your R. Mika's and Bayonettae are likely safe.

In a sense, all their saying is "the discrimination label shouldn't just apply to race discrimination, but sex/gender discrimination as well", which is completely fair.
Click to expand...

Original Post:

Government weighs labels and financial incentives for games that promote a 'positive image of women'

The French government is considering several measures aimed at combating sexism in video games, according to a report published this week by Le Figaro. Axelle Lemaire, the French Minister of Digital Affairs, met with representatives from the French video game industry last month to discuss the set of measures, Le Figaro reports, which include financial incentives and labels for games that give a "positive image of women."

A spokesman for Lemaire's office later confirmed the Le Figaro report to The Verge, adding that discussions are still in an early phase. A finalized proposal is expected by the end of this year, the spokesman said.

A DIRECT RESPONSE TO "VIOLENT POLEMICS"

Catherine Coutelle, a socialist deputy of the National Assembly, proposed legislation last year that would have excluded games that portray a "degrading image of women" from receiving government tax credits. The amendment was met with opposition from some industry groups, and was withdrawn in January. But in a response to Coutelle's proposition published on Tuesday, Lemaire signaled that her ministry still aims to "encourage the production of video games that promote equality between men and women," and to address "topics related to sexism and violence against women."

Among the proposals currently under consideration are bonuses or other financial incentives for video games that promote a positive image of women, as well as a label that would distinguish such games to consumers. Sweden considered a similar labeling system, based on the Bechdel test, in 2014.

Another proposal would categorize games that "incite sexism" as discriminatory, forcing them to be labeled with the highest age rating (18 and over) and barring them from prime time TV advertising. Under the Pan European Game Information (PEGI) rating system, the "discrimination" category currently applies to games that incite hatred against an ethnic or religious group. Lemaire is also considering measures to encourage more involvement among women and minorities in the video game industry, Le Figaro reports.

In the response published Tuesday, Lemaire said the push for greater gender equality in video games and the industry itself is a reaction to "violent polemics" on social media — an implicit reference to the "Gamergate" online campaign that targeted women and activists with threats and harassment. She also credited Feminist Frequency, the video series created by Anita Sarkeesian, with spearheading a broader conversation about how women are portrayed in games. Lemaire added that French developers are "at the forefront" of the movement, pointing to games such as Ubisoft's Beyond Good and Evil and Arkane's Dishonored 2 as examples in which "main female characters carry a positive image of women."
Click to expand...
http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/4/11857930/france-sexism-video-games-label-women
 
With all respect to everyone and clearly just my opinion... This world is lost. The arts are dying in front of us and many are cheering.
 
Incentives for positive imagery? Okay, that's cool.


Max rating for sexism? Who decides if it is deemed sexist? What about import games merely semi-developed and localized there? There are different views for different cultures and different expectations from different counties, so this could prove very tricky.

This will be complicated.
 
That doesn't sound like cracking down as much as not encouraging.

The issue is government tax credits and who they go to. I can't even get upset about rating. That's how ratings are supposed to work.

Although barring from television advertisement is more serious.
 
"Catherine Coutelle, a socialist deputy of the National Assembly, proposed legislation last year that would have excluded games that portray a "degrading image of women" from receiving government tax credits."

They should so have gone through with that.

Arkam said:
With all respect to everyone and clearly just my opinion... This world is lost. The arts are dying in front of us and many are cheering.
Click to expand...

smh
 
Future image of french video game stores

giphy.gif
 
HUELEN10 said:
Incentives for positive imagery? Okay, that's cool.


Max rating for sexism? Who decides if it is deemed sexist? What about import games merely semi-developed and localized there? There are different views for different cultures and different expectations from different counties, so this could prove very tricky.

This will be complicated.
Click to expand...

Just a guess but it will be a French board that decides based on their French culture what is and what isn't sexist. I guess then they can decide where extra incentives can and can't go based on this.

They don't have to subscribe to the views of any other culture, just as other cultures don't have to subscribe to the French view.
 
The execution seems almost impossible though. And what if a game has both positive and negative portrayals? What if player agency allows for negative portayals?
 
HUELEN10 said:
Incentives for positive imagery? Okay, that's cool.


Max rating for sexism? Who decides if it is deemed sexist? What about import games merely semi-developed and localized there? There are different views for different cultures and different expectations from different counties, so this could prove very tricky.

This will be complicated.
Click to expand...
This, more or less. Sexism can be subjective at times, so I can imagine there being a fair few legitimate debates over whether something counts as sexist or progressive. Or even both at times! If it's a direct reaction to how volatile it is to even have a discussion about this stuff online, I'd see that more as a sign to target how lax security/moderation is of shitty behavior rather than targeting the actual products these people are rallying behind. Why should Company X get punished because a fraction of customers are dickheads on a ton of platforms they have zero control over?

Kinda saw France as being way more open with sexual content in their media compared to the US however, so this could wind up not amounting to much even if it passes I guess.
 
Not sure about this. It will just mean more examples of uneccesary censorship for European releases. Also, I've seen Bayonetta both praised and condemned. Would her game pass the test or fail?
 
so basically only games they like will be made.

i dont agree with this. if you dont like how a fake character is portrayed dont buy the game
 
I'm all in favor of getting better representation of women in gaming, and I think we are seeing some huge strides there, but this doesn't frankly sound like a good idea at all.

I'm in favor of the part where they say they will give incentives for positive imagery. That's really cool and will help encourage devs hopefully. But the negative impacts to those that aren't deemed "worthy" seems less than stellar to say the least.
 
In the end game developers won't be able to make the game they want but first they will have to follow a huge guideline of how their game should be.
 
To me it never sounds right for the government to use its power to attempt to influence these things.

At the end of the day we are talking about something people are willingly buying and willingly producing. Its ok to view it as whatever you think it is, criticize, boycott, etc, going being that, isn't right in my view, specially if its the government doing it.

Rap is sexist as fuck a lot of the times, should rappers be charged more because of it? Also in some of the best raps you could easily identify many sexist elements (or things that could be easily labeled as so), doesn't spoil the whole thing. You look at some of the classic books and there is a lot elements that are inadequate/questionable, they were written by people and people have flaws, let people make up their own mind about stuff.

Maybe I'm wrong and we are better of with the government regulating every aspect of our life according to its own views(worked fantastically in the past, when the people in charge were openly racist, sexist, etc...).
 
What the fuck is this?

Among the proposals currently under consideration are bonuses or other financial incentives for video games that promote a positive image of women, as well as a label that would distinguish such games to consumers. Sweden considered a similar labeling system, based on the Bechdel test, in 2014.

Another proposal would categorize games that "incite sexism" as discriminatory, forcing them to be labeled with the highest age rating (18 and over) and barring them from prime time TV advertising.
Click to expand...

This is virtually enforcing censorship of art. This would also absolutely hurt Japanese games, which always tend to be very sexist.

Using Feminist Frequency as a positive example is a terrible idea too. Regardless of FF's intentions, the execution has been a disaster more often than not.

Sexism in society (not just video games) must be solved through discussion, education, and a shift in cultural interests. Not with laws. You can't force people into being smart and tolerant. You really shouldn't force art into being politically correct either.

I hope this gets modified into being something actually useful and well-executed, because the current propositions sound offensive.
 
Obliterator said:
I'm all in favor of getting better representation of women in gaming, and I think we are seeing some huge strides there, but this doesn't frankly sound like a good idea at all.
Click to expand...

Agreed. It's already happening naturally. This seems pointless.
 
People can often have differing views on what is and isn't sexist. This isn't something that should be determined by a ratings board, in my opinion. Artists need to be free to make what they wish. If what they make is disgusting in its portrayal of women, then it will not sell particularly well because most people will be turned off by it and not buy it.
 
potatohead said:
Sexism isn't the same as depicting sexual relations on TV.
Click to expand...
It isn't, but the difference in cultural norms in media could have a change in how a French board looking into sexism would differ from an American one.

Listing GamerGate as a reason for doing this makes it seem even more backwards; why not take an initiative to combat that toxicity directly instead of just punishing everyone, including the developers and customers, while effectively just brushing the actual perpetrators of internet fuckery under the rug and giving them more ammo to go after their targets?
 
So would Ubisoft get in trouble for not having the resources to model a female protagonist and animate her in any future games?
I know Syndicate had a female protagonist but you never know with the french.
 
Mr Waluigi said:
What the fuck is this?



This is virtually enforcing censorship of art. This would also absolutely hurt Japanese games, which always tend to be very sexist.

Using Feminist Frequency as a positive example is a terrible idea too. Regardless of FF's intentions, the execution has been a disaster more often than not.

Sexism in society (not just video games) must be solved through discussion, education, and a shift in cultural interests. Not with laws. You can't force people into being smart and tolerant. You really shouldn't force art into being politically correct either.

I hope this gets modified into being something actually useful and well-executed, because the current propositions sound offensive.
Click to expand...

It's not censorship, they're not changing games or preventing them from being sold. Just those they deem discriminatory will have a higher rating. That's all.
 
The problem is how subjective the whole topic is. Take the quote about "incite sexism", now that's a tough thing to judge, as there can be sexism portrayed, but to incite it is slightly different. It enters the same realm as the argument there's been about videogames encouraging violence.

Still, it's a novel idea, and I like the concept of incentives for more inclusiveness and positivity.
 
Azerth said:
i did. make your game showing women the way we want and get better tax benefits or not the highest rating possible.

both force devs to either chose between making the game they want or money and a none 18+ rating
Click to expand...

Then there is no threat to game devs who do not rely on French 'financial incentives' for game development, should that proposal pass.

There is no threat to game devs who already do not advertise on prime time French TV, should that proposal pass.

PEGI ratings already exist that slap labels on games over their content, and games still get made all the time across that spectrum.

Therefore "only games they like will be made" is an uninformed overreaction. Worst case, sky-is-falling scenario is that certain games become more difficult to buy in France. I think I'd need to hear more evidence about just how hard it can get before I panic about these proposals.
 
Spirited said:
So would Ubisoft get in trouble for not having the resources to model a female protagonist and animate her in any future games?
I know Syndicate had a female protagonist but you never know with the french.
Click to expand...

The Assassin's Creed studios have already left to Canada
 
How do we know this system won't be used in a bad way? Like Ubisoft, because it is a French company and gives many French people jobs gets a free pass while another company gets the negative effects unfairly for god knows what reasons. Politicians should not put their noses on art.
 
Offering developers bonuses for portraying women positively is a good idea, because as we've seen they'll get a load of shit and possibly lose sales from gamers.
 
Mr Waluigi said:
What the fuck is this?



This is virtually enforcing censorship of art. This would also absolutely hurt Japanese games, which always tend to be very sexist.

Using Feminist Frequency as a positive example is a terrible idea too. Regardless of FF's intentions, the execution has been a disaster more often than not.

Sexism in society (not just video games) must be solved through discussion, education, and a shift in cultural interests. Not with laws. You can't force people into being smart and tolerant. You really shouldn't force art into being politically correct either.

I hope this gets modified into being something actually useful and well-executed, because the current propositions sound offensive.
Click to expand...
I'm not in favor of these policies but they can't be classified as censorship at all. The goverment having a subjective rating system and using it to decide when media can be transmitted seems perfectly normal.
 
Terrible idea. You can't change minds by force and you're hurting devs that make specific kinds of games. If you want the industry to become less sexist, this isn't the way to do it - especially since it only affects games in France. Will just hurt French gamers who like Japanese games.
 
The idea sounds a bit half-baked to me. I mean, first off, why only limit it to video games and why only to the portrayal of women? Sexism in our society is a very complex, interconnected issue that includes harmful female and male gender roles/stereotypes. You can only really solve it if you address both sides of it, otherwise you might as well just not bother TBH. Feels like cutting out one half of a tumour and leaving the other half in. (And no, I am not trying to relativise the oppression of or discrimination against women by pointing out that men are also subject to stupid ideas of how they should look, act, sound, move and think, before anyone tries to accuse me of that. I'm merely saying that they're one and the same issue and that you can't solve one without solving the other.)

Generally speaking, though, I'm all for combatting sexism/promoting gender equality, just not sure whether the proposals at hand are very well-thought-out.

EDIT: And as others have pointed out it is not easy to know where to draw the line when it comes to determining what should be classed as sexist and what shouldn't in this context. I mean, theoretically speaking, even just the differences in popular men's and women's fashion are sexist (whether they're a harmful form of sexism or not is, of course, a different issue but that's kind of the point I'm making) but I'm sure they aren't planning on slapping developers on the wrist for including female characters who dress in normal, traditionally feminine clothing/male characters who dress in normal, traditionally masculine clothing.
 
Prisoner KSC2-303 said:
Still, it's a novel idea, and I like the concept of incentives for more inclusiveness and positivity.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure how much of a positive effect that could really have, though - at best, it'd encourage potentially harmful, surface-level, tokenistic 'inclusivity' with a minimum amount of thought, and at worst it'd actively harm games by encouraging developers to restrict the subject matter they depict for fear of being branded as 'inciting sexism'.
 
The excessive amount of thought policing we're starting to see is getting more and more disturbing by the day.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

  • Poll
Battlefield fans, would you prefer more incentives to encourage squad play?
2
53
433
Ceadeus replied
Ace Combat 30th Anniversary Memorial Video
23
898
LavitzSlambert replied
Skill Up launches new ad-free video game website - This Week In Video Games.
2 3
146
4K
Wildebeest replied
New VIRTUA FIGHTER Project | Combat Gameplay First Look
2 3 4
158
2K
Lambogenie replied
Sword Hero - Demo and Combat Trailer
0
116
Arsic replied
Top Bottom