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[WaterAstro]

If anything if this law actually passes then you can be sure that Rockstar will be mocking it in the game.

Well it's not an American law. Rockstar won't be developing in France anytime soon.

Ubisoft would need to be worried about it, but they're relatively good with this subject.
Quantic Dream, however...

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

People are saying this will only be applied to video games to justify their support of it but it's actually a very slippery slope that can turn to many other things out there. This is the way censorship begins.

Thanks to censorship I can watch english dubbed anime.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

Like a lot of people here, your missing the point.

Would you like to actually explain or are you just gonna shitpost? I'm not 100% against this but I hate these kinds of low quality posts.

 

[Dennis]

Governments should not interfere in what games are made. That is censorship.

If they want to add a "sexism" label to games like we already have for violence, sex etc. so be it.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Well it's not an American law. Rockstar won't be developing in France anytime soon.

Sure, but if it passes then it'll make enough noise that people in the US will know about it. So I can see a radio station talking about it.

 

[Kinsei]

Governments should not interfere in what games are made.

If they want to add a "sexism" label to games like we already have for violence etc. so be it.

That's exactly what they are doing (minus the restrictions on advertising) though.

 

[Obliterator]

If they want to add a "sexism" label to games like we already have for violence etc. so be it.

The issue with the sexism label is we can't even agree as a society what exactly is sexist. We have some solid ideas and we can mostly recognize some overt cases but a lot of it isn't agreed upon at all. For example FF was insanely off touch with their assessment of Elena in Uncharted 4 imo. It's just not something that is wholly cut and dry. There is a lot of nuances to it.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Governments should not interfere in what games are made.

they aren't

 

[striferser]

Okay, that was interesting. I say let it be, if it's label, some auteur developer don't really give a fuck if their game was labeled with sexism or not. Now, if the government start taking matter into hand and burn every game labeled sexism, now that is what i cannot approve.

 

[jmood88]

With all respect to everyone and clearly just my opinion... This world is lost. The arts are dying in front of us and many are cheering.

This is nonsense.

 

[Dennis]

The issue with the sexism label is we can't even agree as a society what exactly is sexist. We have some solid ideas and we can mostly recognize some overt cases but a lot of it isn't agreed upon at all. For example FF was insanely off touch with their assessment of Elena in Uncharted 4 imo. It's just not something that is wholly cut and dry. There is a lot of nuances to it.

Oh I agree but the label is a compromise to avoid them doing something to actually interfere in what games get made.

I think the labeling including the age rating labels are excessive as is.

All these label about highly specific things like 'drugs' are silly and paternalistic to me.

Just a 'Suitable for Children' sticker should be sufficient.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

they aren't

There's a second sentence there which clearly demonstrates that he knows this.

 

[Harlequin]

You asked, what qualifies a game as sexist, I replied, consider the common tropes of games that are.

So your answer to the question of what the definition of sexist content in this context should be is to look at other content that's already been defined as sexist by random people on the internet? Where did their definition of sexist content come from? That's a non-answer.

 

[hodgy100]

For another perspective. The UK gives tax breaks to "British games" meaning games that feature British places or British characters being made by a British game developer. Would you consider this censorship?

If not then apply that line of thinking to this situation. Because it's pretty much the same.

 

[WaterAstro]

Sure, but if it passes then it'll make enough noise that people in the US will know about it. So I can see a radio station talking about it.

It'll just be talk. The government won't be instituting anything like this. Actually, I don't even know if US gives their video game companies any tax credit to begin with.

 

[Obliterator]

Oh I agree but the label is a compromise to avoid them doing something to actually interfere in what games get made.

I think the labeling including the age rating labels are excessive as is.

Yeah I hear you that's just mainly why I'm against them actively pursuing the negative aspects of the legislation. Violence, drug use, and sex etc. are defined acts that we know exactly what they are. Labeling that onto a game isn't an opinion you can clearly see it. Once you start putting an actual sexism label on something in an official capacity you are going down a road of someone's interpretation of something and not necessarily something that will even be agreed upon at scale. It's a really blurry undefined line. What's sexist to one person often times isn't to someone else.

 

[A Link to the Past]

There's a second sentence there which clearly demonstrates that he knows this.

How does that even imply that idea? That second line can also mean "now if they wanted to do a rating system I'd be all for it".

So your answer to the question of what the definition of sexist content in this context should be is to look at other content that's already been defined as sexist by random people on the internet? Where did their definition of sexist content come from? That's a non-answer.

There are a lot of people who do their work studying sexism. On that note, how do you determine extreme violence, or the many other classifications that we apply to games and other media? Many of these classifications are judgment calls.

 

[HarryKS]

Du blabla.

 

[SolidSnakex]

For another perspective. The UK gives tax breaks to "British games" meaning games that feature British places or British characters being made by a British game developer. Would you consider this censorship?

If not then apply that line of thinking to this situation. Because it's pretty much the same.

It's not the same at all. With what you just described makes it very clear how to get said tax breaks. British developer making games that take place in the UK. So if you're a studio based in Birmingham and you make a game based in London, you're going to get a tax break. Those would be things that are undeniable. The main issue here is that what is or isn't sexist is a matter of opinion. It's not something clear like ESRB category ratings or what you just described.

 

[Nirolak]

So would Ubisoft get in trouble for not having the resources to model a female protagonist and animate her in any future games?
I know Syndicate had a female protagonist but you never know with the french.

Ubisoft only has three French studios.

There's Montpellier, who mostly makes Rayma and games like Valiant Hearts when not assisting other studios.

There's Nadeo, who makes racing games.

And there's Paris, who is making a game about mass murdering and torturing Bolivians, which was presumably going to get a PEGI 18 despite seeming starring four white men.

I don't think they need French tax credits anyway though. They're very wealthy and make all their major games on Canadian tax credits.

 

[Savitar]

No it isn't. You don't have the evidence to support this will turn into censorship. You are attempting to appeal to people with fear of something you don't even know is going to happen.

Some people in this thread continue to use the slippery slope argument, without even realizing it's a logical fallacy. That it has no value in this argument. Stop fear-mongering.

If you're going to argue against this, talk about the draconian limitations of the advertisement, not the economical incentives for teams to develop a more equal representations in some games. If that threatens your masculinity, then you can say that "art is dying", but don't expect people not to call you out.

My statement is my own, it is not made to appeal to anyone or change anyone's way of thinking as most will stand on their own side of the issue.

I'm not surprised that you criticize me for a number of things readily enough as a means of attempting to deflect and discredit my words. And saying it threatens my masculinity? What do you know of my masculinity. Your process on this seems to be an attempt to belittle and incriminate as your argument as a whole. Not that you won't find some who will agree with you, there will be some. But why is it that people such as you take issue with those who think otherwise believe the only way they can triumph is by attacking a person so.

Do you realize that is not the way to "win an argument". It's why these things so de evolve into a circle of insults until finally closed by a mod.

Do you know why I take my stance? It's because I love history, love it. Yet one thing that's always repeated was the calls for censorship of books, movies, music, actors or otherwise because of perceived wronging's or moral outrage. We look back and shake our heads now but the times those things happened, the issues ballooned into much bigger issues and greater calls of censorship until a period of time passed and people realized wow that it went too far and for some reason often results in a good number of burnings, I guess humanity loves a good burning. Funny how that keeps happening despite the fact we believe ourselves to be greater and wiser than what came before.

It's videogames, so what. It's one book, so what. It's a piece of art, so what. It's one actor, so what. It's one disgusting piece of imagery, so what.

Things change to reflect the times and video games like everything will do so as well, but what is perceived as sexist definitely falls into the eye of the beholder. Some here are more critical than others for example, trying to pass a rule to govern is likely to be as flawed as movie ratings. And even then every country has a different view point. Deadpool for example, R in the States was it not? In Canada it wasn't. Again, different view points. Not every item in the world is going to conform to the view point of everyone, nor should it. It's impossible. But it's only video games one says, sure but that's how too often such things always begin.

All things sexual has become this generations violent boogieman of the 90's scene. It's definitely easier to attack than violence and definitely a crusade with greater support.

And no I say none of this to convince anyone of anything, people will believe what they will. These conversations always go around in circles.

Censorship already exists.

Indeed.

 

[Crossing Eden]

So your answer to the question of what the definition of sexist content in this context should be is to look at other content that's already been defined as sexist by random people on the internet? Where did their definition of sexist content come from? That's a non-answer.

You're being obtuse. You wanna know something that's sexist, a sniper who because of a convoluted plot can't talk or wear clothing while constantly being sexualized, bikini armor that serves no functional purpose other than titillating a perceived male audience, that includes skimpy outfits in general when it comes to games whether they're defaults or alternate costumes. Just to name a few examples. Stop pretending like sexism is so incredibly vague when this industry is one of the most tropey and repetitive when it comes to it.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

For another perspective. The UK gives tax breaks to "British games" meaning games that feature British places or British characters being made by a British game developer. Would you consider this censorship?

If not then apply that line of thinking to this situation. Because it's pretty much the same.

How is it the same? France isn't giving tax breaks to devs with positive portrayls of women. It is giving an additional label, banning ads on prime TV, and not giving gov. subs to games with content they deem sexist.

 

[Chezzymann]

So should Mario games be rated 18+? I mean he's always having to save the princess since she's a girl and can't save herself from bowser. That's kind of inciting sexism. Thing is with this is that the line can get pretty blury and subjective to what is sexist.

 

[Stiler]

This deserves a big bag of NOPE.

Sorry, that's censorship plain and simple.

As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. You think it's "good" to promote this and the overly pc-culture but in the end it will be used to curtail art and freedom of expression.

 

[Spring Drive]

Ubisoft only has three French studios.

There's Montpellier, who mostly makes Rayma and games like Valiant Hearts when not assisting other studios.

There's Nadeo, who makes racing games.

And there's Paris, who is making a game about mass murdering and torturing Bolivians, which was presumably going to get a PEGI 18 despite seeming starring four white men.

There's Ubisoft Annecy too

 

[kiguel182]

AdultOnly18+ games are banned in physical stores or won't carry them if I remember correctly. Different from M rated games. I think the big example was the hot coffee mod scandal in GTA (PC).

GTA5 is still rated M, for context.

Course I could be wrong about this. Someone can feel free to correct me.

Oh okay. I don't think we have a bigger rating than M here. At least that I know about.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

This deserves a big bag of NOPE.

Sorry, that's censorship plain and simple.

As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. You think it's "good" to promote this and the overly pc-culture but in the end it will be used to curtail art and freedom of expression.

No. That's not what censorship is. Sorry, try again.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

How does that even imply that idea?

The first sentence is affirming something that he believes needs to be held true regardless of what is happening. The second sentiment acknowledges and condones what's actually happening in juxtaposition to that firmly held ideal.

 

[Audioboxer]

Financially sound developers will continue to create the content they want and if certain countries ever impose restrictions or cuts gamers will simply import. Has been going on for a while now and is but a minor inconvenience.

The discussions are worth having, but people going all out paranoid about their games need not worry. Things are as violent, gorey and naked as ever. In fact nudity is cropping up more often with no issues at all.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Feel free to explain it, then.

Would you like to actually explain or are you just gonna shitpost? I'm not 100% against this but I hate these kinds of low quality posts.

She explained her issue with that already so I don't need to explain that. But on topic, it seems like the people crying "censorship" don't actually understand what's going on here or are thinking this is some attack on certain games.

 

[A Link to the Past]

So should Mario games be rated 18+? I mean he's always having to save the princess since she's a girl and can't save herself from bowser. That's kind of inciting sexism. Thing is with this is that the line can get pretty blury and subjective to what is sexist.

Peach has been playable in most recent Mario platformers.

Furthermore, your proposal is pretty darn black-and-white. We have Cartoon Violence rating and Violence rating; can't we have "Damsel in Distress" rating and "Quiet is Stupid" rating?

The first sentence is affirming something that he believes needs to be held true regardless of what is happening. The second sentiment acknowledges and condones what's actually happening in juxtaposition to that firmly held ideal.

Wouldn't it be nifty if the post properly conveyed that idea

 

[Obliterator]

You're being obtuse. You wanna know something that's sexist, a sniper who because of a convoluted plot can't talk or wear clothing while constantly being sexualized, bikini armor that serves no functional purpose other than titillating a perceived male audience, that includes skimpy outfits in general when it comes to games whether they're defaults or alternate costumes. Just to name a few examples. Stop pretending like sexism is so incredibly vague when this industry is one of the most tropey and repetitive when it comes to it.

Then Crossing Eden you should frankly take your own advice and realize there are tons of cases where it is indeed vague. Just because you can provide evidence of obtuse clearly evident sexism does not mean there isn't PLENTY of nuances to it. If the committee had sided on FF side of things would you be okay with Uncharted 4 receiving a sexism label on it?

Again, I think many in here are coming from the right place but be careful not to overshoot things.

 

[WaterAstro]

You're being obtuse. You wanna know something that's sexist, a sniper who because of a convoluted plot can't talk or wear clothing while constantly being sexualized, bikini armor that serves no functional purpose other than titillating a perceived male audience, that includes skimpy outfits in general when it comes to games whether they're defaults or alternate costumes. Just to name a few examples. Stop pretending like sexism is so incredibly vague when this industry is one of the most tropey and repetitive when it comes to it.

So Heavy Rain and Beyond: Two Souls is sexist?

How is it the same? France isn't giving tax breaks to devs with positive portrayls of women. It is giving an additional label, banning ads on prime TV, and not giving gov. subs to games with content they deem sexist.

DoA Xtreme 3 has female main characters. Would they consider that positive portrayal of woman?

See. Subjective. What would you consider as positive portrayal of women won't be the same for everyone.

 

[Nirolak]

There's Ubisoft Annecy too

After checking, it seems they don't do anything but assist external project, so I don't think this would impact them.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

Wouldn't it be nifty if the post properly conveyed that idea

It does. How do you think I reached that conclusion?

 

[TimeEffect]

Governments should not interfere in what games are made.

If they want to add a "sexism" label to games like we already have for violence, sex etc. so be it.

I wonder how that will be covered in terms of violence.

Would a game where you play as a woman and kill just men have a label? I don't know if Tomb Raider has women NPCs, but the violence in that game was more realistic, wasn't it? A game where you kill just men and play as a woman seems worth noting as an example of gendered violence.

At the same time, a game like Last of Us is so incredibly violent...while it has men to kill, wouldn't seeing women choked and killed by Joel be seen as sexist, cause for concern, and as violence against women? Last of Us had no women enemies, except in storylines. Yet I don't see an overpowering man killing women going over easy. Especially with the violence in that game being so realistic.

I'd say even GTA is tame compared to the realistic violence in Last of Us and perhaps Tomb Raider. GTA on the other hand has male violence on both sexes, but it's particularly the fact that you kill sex workers that seems to make it gendered. So labels would exist for GTA for specially targeting women... but if what if there were male sex workers and female protagonists? Would that result in the removal of a sexist label, or would it still stay?

I wonder if there will be a distinction between who you play as, the context of NPCs, the realism of violence, equal representation, and soon, VR experience.

I imagine VR will bring up the topic of violence in general back up again, especially as well as discussions on sex and women.

 

[A Link to the Past]

It does. How do you think I reached that conclusion?

If anyone can validly interpret it in a different fashion, the idea isn't properly conveyed.

 

[Spyder_Monkey]

France: "want to encourage game developers to bring in a more positive image for women in games along with labeling games we find to be sexist.

Gamers: That's censorship

China: We're blocking Tumblr on the anniversary of the Tianamen Square massacre.

Gamers: ...

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

So Heavy Rain and Beyond: Two Souls is sexist?



DoA Xtreme 3 has female main characters. Would they consider that positive portrayal of woman?

See. Subjective. What would you consider as positive portrayal of women won't be the same for everyone.

?

I was just explaining that the two arguements are completely different.

 

[Vice]

This deserves a big bag of NOPE.

Sorry, that's censorship plain and simple.

As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. You think it's "good" to promote this and the overly pc-culture but in the end it will be used to curtail art and freedom of expression.

It's just a label and a lack of tax credits. The government is not required to financially support art that diesn't agree to its terms, I believe.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

If anyone can validly interpret it in a different fashion, the idea isn't properly conveyed.

"5" isn't a valid interpretation of "2 + 2"

 

[Dennis]

The first sentence is affirming something that he believes needs to be held true regardless of what is happening. The second sentiment acknowledges and condones what's actually happening in juxtaposition to that firmly held ideal.

You are absolutely right.

 

[GhostTrick]

I think the French Parliament has FAR better things to deal with than with video games.

 

[Ysiadmihi]

She explained her issue with that already so I don't need to explain that.

Shocking.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

I think the French Parliament has FAR better things to deal with than with video games.

Yeah, it's too bad they stopped everything else to focus entirely on that.

 

[Kinyou]

France: "want to encourage game developers to bring in a more positive image for women in games along with labeling games we find to be sexist.

Gamers: That's censorship

China: We're blocking Tumblr on the anniversary of the Tianamen Square massacre.

Gamers: ...

What an odd strawman. Are there people here who approve of the censorship happening in China?

 

[A Link to the Past]

"5" isn't a valid interpretation of "2 + 2"

Ah, so you're essentially saying that it is impossible to interpret the statement in the way that I have.

It does not matter whether your interpretation is right or wrong; the statement absolutely can mean both things. It is not my fault that the statement wasn't more carefully worded.

 

[univbee]

So as a French speaker I actually read the proposal and some of you are making a much bigger deal about this than necessary.

First, they fully acknowledge that PEGI 18 games already represent a third of all game sales in Europe and have some of the biggest budgets. i.e. nobody is hurting because their game is PEGI 18.

Second, their examples for things which would fit under what they're going for are: actual discrimination (e.g. some clear 'one sex/gender is unfairly inferior/superior to the other' element, which in this context would be more in the context of 'this sort of thing in a work environment would create legal problems for the company'), sexual violence (assault/rape, and this would have to be actually sex-related versions of those crimes, e.g. Double Dragon would probably be fine), and "use of sexual insults/slurs" (which would include things like "slut, bitch, whore, cunt" and the like). Based on my reading of the way it's presented, I don't think they're saying "anything which doesn't pass the Bechdel test gets a PEGI 18 rating" (even the actual Bechdel test isn't intended to be an 'all movies must pass it' thing, but just to spot trends and see what percentage of movies overall pass the test or nor) or anything like that. Your R. Mika's and Bayonettae are likely safe.

In a sense, all their saying is "the discrimination label shouldn't just apply to race discrimination, but sex/gender discrimination as well", which is completely fair.

 

[Deleted member 10571]

One example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comics_Code_Authority

Edit: Another example would ne germany. If a game is considered too brutal over here, any promotion of it (including any review or previews in magazines) can be prohibited and the game can only be sold to over 18 year olds when specifically asked for at the Counter. It is prohibited from being shown on store shelfs.

For publishers, this meant a great decrease in profits, so special censored versions for germany were made, that contained less blood, violence, changed enemies to robots, or like with Gears of War or Dead Rising prevented publishers from releasing the games over here at all.

The CCA is not government regulated, it's the exact opposite and was founded because of fears of government involvement. Currently, only 3 comic book publishers are even adhering to this thing, not even Marvel cares about it. So yeah, moot point.

Regarding the Germany part, that's a false comparison. What you are talking about is not regular 18+ games (which is what a valid comparison would be as stated in the OP), but indexed games. This isn't happening at all for our usual CODs and not even the recent Doom, so it's already a completely overblown comparison. Games get indexed when they go against German laws, eg showing swastikas or nazi propaganda, or appeal to or instruct criminal acts, among others. This is done for "art" like Hatred and similar games.
Years back also comparably tame shooters were affected, but let's not act as if getting these games regardless would be any problem for 18year olds.


edit: Thanks univbee for the clarification. Figured something like that would be the case.