Brexit |OT| UK Referendum on EU Membership - 23 June 2016

Did you vote for the side that is going to win?


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You telling me. We've got the Elephant man, and Jack the ripper; so we're pretty Rich as far as great characters from history goes. But for the life of me I don't understand why in the age of the Internet, people still take those Jack the Ripper tours is beyond me. There's a Jack the ripper museum on Cable Street now. And Jack the clipper barber shop near Shoreditch.

My favourite thing is that there was a time when Burger Kings around the whole of Europe (maybe the world) had some sort of interesting display on the walls based on their immediate surroundings. So I went to the BK in Salamanca in central Spain a few years ago and they had this cool, sort of duo-tone artistic impression of the big city center square there. It was very nice.

The one near Aldgate East station? It's got a moody painting of Jack the Ripper, cloak blowing in the wind as he hides in the shadows. It felt so weird because, like, he's not fictional. He was an actual serial killer who murdered people. I just imagine that in another 80 years the Burger King in Hyde will have a Fresco on the wall of Harold Shipman with a wry smile and a hypodermic needle.
 
Apologies, then

And I certainly agree the campaign's have been terrible. They've ranged from incompetent to outright misleading

can't argue with that. My feeling though is we can always vote to get out but if we leave now we're never getting back in (and definitely not with our current deal)
 
Accuracy assured...

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New version of the Sun's front page today.

Please tell me that's fake.
 
So for the whole "We didn't vote for those who make EU laws", what is the truth to that? We did in fact vote for our representatives to "making these laws".

Showing my lack of knowledge in how the EU actually works.

It is complicated.

The European Council decide what the lawmaking priorities should be. The European Council is the head of state or parliament from each country (i.e. they are all elected)

The European Commission prepares the draft legislation. There are 28 commissioners (1 per country) appointed by the European Council, but they must be approved by the European Parliament (who are elected, see below). It acts like a cabinet, but can be a bit like the house of lords - in that it's members are appointed and tend to be old politicians. It can be a sneaky way to give a job to an important politician that lost his seat. However, they serve short terms and must be re-appointed, unlike peers in the house of lords.
The Commission also contains the bulk of the EU's civil service.
This is why people like Boris and Farage can claim the laws are written by unelected bureaucrats. Unlike our own cabinet, the commissioners don't need to pass a public vote, but they are appointed by people who have passed a public vote.

Draft legislation must then be voted on and passed by the European Parliament and also by the Council of Ministers. If either house fails to do so, they can propose changes to the commission, who will redraft the legislation and resubmit it for voting. This happens a lot, and there can be many cycles of redrafting as people argue over the small print in the legislation. It is essentially impossible to force through legislation that either parliament or the commission do not agree with.

The EU parliament is like our house of commons, with elected MEPs and a majority vote required to pass legislation.

The Council of Ministers is essentially the EU's joint cabinet. It is sometimes considered to be the EU's house of lords, since it has quite a few ex-politicians who get appointed to some post or other. It's job is to judge whether the legislation is acceptable for each member's government. Each national government appoints a single minister for to vote on each decision. In most cases, to pass a vote, at least 15 of the 28 ministers must agree and they must represent 2/3rds of the EU population. Some policy areas have tighter rules and may even require a unanimous decision.
In practice, it is very rare for these votes to be close. If there is a lot of disagreement, the council usually asks for a re-draft instead of passing it by a slim majority.
Things have got more acrimonious recently. It used to be that ministers would agree with the majority verdict >97% of the time, but in the last 5 years or so Britain (i.e. Cameron's appointed ministers) have been kicking off a lot, and 'only' agree with the majority on 87% of decisions.

In my limited experience, the Commission is rather technocratic, but writes good 'neutral' laws.
Parliament is highly populist, since those MEPs need something to say when they go to their voters and turnouts in MEP elections are poor. If you can say you are in a parliament committee that made regulation ammendments that saved British steel or something, you've got a much better chance of getting elected. This can be good or bad. They block some bad unpopular legislation but can be a bit "why don't we just ban [necessary but unpopular thing]"
The Council of Ministers tends to act as the 'voice of reason' to make sure the laws aren't going to be unworkable or upset people back home.

TL;DR, it's democratic but complicated.

An EU regulation must be given a mandate by the elected heads of government, drafted by people appointed by elected heads of government, approved by the ministers of elected governments, and also approved by directly elected MEPs.
 
Please tell me that's fake.

The fact that Murdoch is happily using the referendum to promote one of his own films is utterly, in every way, appalling. It's a sickening corruption of democracy and the strongest example of why the laws around media ownership should never have been relaxed.
 
Well let me just say I hope you guys remain. Also seems to be the smarter move. It's hard to see any benefits from leaving considering you guys already have exceptions from some EU stuff like the Euro.
 
Going to the polls in an hour or so. It's going to be weird actually voting for something rather than spoiling my ballot in protest of FPTP
 
I wonder what the papers will be doing for their front pages tomorrow. We'll probably know the outcome by then but none of them will before going to press.
 
It is very noticeable how much more relaxed people in town are today. Everybody I've seen.

I guess that's a good sign. People have been taking this seriously and worrying at it for the last few weeks, and I hadn't noticed the stress levels building up. But today it is like everybody's strings have been cut, minds are made up, worry is off the agenda.
 
I wonder what the papers will be doing for their front pages tomorrow. We'll probably know the outcome by then but none of them will before going to press.

YouGov are doing exit polling, it probably won't be very accurate but they may use that to have something to go off.
 
An hour later and everything has moved in favour of remain. As at 1020 the markets are the following:

FTSE100 - 6,323 (up 1.0%)
£ - USD 1.482
Betfair - 1.19 (84% remain)

Wasn't there talk about some financial companies having commissioned private exit polls that they would be using to profit from predicting the direction of the marketplace? Or was that bunkum?
 
Wasn't there talk about some financial companies having commissioned private exit polls that they would be using to profit from predicting the direction of the marketplace? Or was that bunkum?

Not bunkum. They will already be pouring over any data they have received, and will continue through the day.
 
I wonder what the papers will be doing for their front pages tomorrow. We'll probably know the outcome by then but none of them will before going to press.

The Economist has delayed printing so it can include the result and appropriate articles - although depending how close it is my copy might not arrive till Monday apparently.
 
Wasn't there talk about some financial companies having commissioned private exit polls that they would be using to profit from predicting the direction of the marketplace? Or was that bunkum?
Yes. So if the markets go down suddenly with seemingly no reason, their research has shown Leave's chances are up.
 
The fact that Murdoch is happily using the referendum to promote one of his own films is utterly, in every way, appalling. It's a sickening corruption of democracy and the strongest example of why the laws around media ownership should never have been relaxed.

Relatedly: Can anyone tell me why Last Week Tonight was delayed "due to OFCOM impartiality rules", yet The Sun can have that front page? Is it just OFCOM having stricter rules and regulations than whatever covers newspapers?

Unrelated to that, but another question: The Pound is riding high against the Dollar, due to a feeling for Remain. If the result is to Leave, who is worst hit by the drop in currency that will happen? I presume bankers and investment houses?
 
Relatedly: Can anyone tell me why Last Week Tonight was delayed "due to OFCOM impartiality rules", yet The Sun can have that front page? Is it just OFCOM having stricter rules and regulations than whatever covers newspapers?

I don't think OFCOM covers newspapers.
 
Relatedly: Can anyone tell me why Last Week Tonight was delayed "due to OFCOM impartiality rules", yet The Sun can have that front page? Is it just OFCOM having stricter rules and regulations than whatever covers newspapers?

Broadcast has rules about impartiality, and also, presenters can't tell people how to vote. I think it's section 6 of the broadcast code but haven't read it in a while.

Newspapers have no such rules.
 
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