nature boy
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The UK votes to leave the European Union |OUT2| Mayday, Mayday, I've lost an ARM
- Thread starter Hasney
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I agree that Labour's chosen position to more or less agree with the Tory one is absolutely mind-boggling.
1. Their MPs were almost entirely pro-EU. Far moreso than the Tories were.
2. Why on earth not try to reach out to the 48% (probably now higher) of the electorate who do not want the country to go in the direction it's heading?
3. Generally as the opposition party, it's good to take an opposing stance. I mean, obviously not just for the sake of it, but in this case it makes total sense.
Madness.
1. Their MPs were almost entirely pro-EU. Far moreso than the Tories were.
2. Why on earth not try to reach out to the 48% (probably now higher) of the electorate who do not want the country to go in the direction it's heading?
3. Generally as the opposition party, it's good to take an opposing stance. I mean, obviously not just for the sake of it, but in this case it makes total sense.
Madness.
More Fun To Compute
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We need to ban imports on all foreign computers and consoles. It's time to resurrect the ZX Spectrum brand but not the BBC micro since the BBC are basically communists and traitors, to a man.
The Friendly Monster
Member
Completely agree, is there a chance this stance changes with a new leader?
It's not a sure thing, but I think it's pretty likely the new Lab leader is more pro-EU.
Labour will never get to have a say in the matter, as either the Article 50 button gets pushed long before a general election, or it's already clear that it isn't going to be pushed at all by which point Labour will have changed policy. They're just covering themselves so the Conservatives can't score any political points out of it.
Speaking of which, with the Conservative leadership contest underway and the Labour mutineers struggling to find anyone daft enough to stand up to Corbyn it seems that the initial threat of Article 50 has passed for now. They all talk about doing it like it's a sure thing, but it's getting kicked to the long grass as they all try to position their careers appropriately.
Think I'll duck out of the thread for now. At least until we have a new Prime Minister with their hand hovering over the self-destruct button.
Only in the UK could we have two parties desperately vying to prove that they respect a democratic referendum that returned a tiny majority which, according to current polling, has already been overridden.
Labour and the Tories both aligning behind less immigration & Brexit is monumentally depressing, and, frankly, seems like Labour has given up on all reason in desperation for votes. As much as Corbyn comes across principled, his actual policy jumps around just as much as anyone else's.
Yes, come to the light my friend
Yup, I wish Labour were even close to being credible opposition, or even lay out a plan for this shit that would make sense to me... but nope.
Lib Dems all the way. I'm gonna go campaign around here when there's something to play for, or at least raise awareness (and not be like a Bernie supporter).
JonnyDBrit
Member
That reminds me, I need to weigh up joining the party proper. My family's always been big on the LibDems (though they tend to not do well where I live), and watching how things go with Labour and the Conservatives is just pushing me more towards it.
Hey you know how Remain failed to inform Welsh voters of the significant funding that Wales receives from the EU? Fortunately, this Leave campaigner had their back:
This is a joke, right?
The Tories justify cutting government services using different rhetoric.
Does it matter? He's only going to be Chancellor for about another 13 hours.
Because the people running Labour don't want to be in the EU, and sabotaged the Remain campaign as best as they could. Given Corbyn has been against it since we joined it shouldn't come as a surprise.
If you want a major political party to be against leaving the EU, you need to change the leader of the Labour Party or hope that the economic and trade issues are so significant May pulls away from it (but I dopn't think she will).
The only other option is to join the Lib Dems and campaign like hell.
They know they are fucked and are trying to stay relevant. No thought at all is being put into their views. Worse opposition. I'm like, anti-Tory, but somehow I'm even more anti-their opposition. It's insane.
that's actually depressing
Im also switching from someone who wasthinking about Labour to Lib dems. They seem to be the only party wanting to stay in Europe as is.
Bony Manifesto
Member
I wouldn't get your hopes up. He's still totally committed to austerity on an ideological level, but now he's absolved himself of having to hit his 2020 target, he probably won't try to push any more grotesquely unpopular policies through to make savings.
SporeCrawler
Member
no its not. Britons have no working permit or residence permit in european countrie they are not refugees so normally they need to go. Its up to each individual state what they will do with the britons.i assume they will issue work permits and residence permits as long they are students or have a job. Other people will probably get kicked out.
This of course may change if UK agrees to freedom of movement
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Good thing their trying to with poor success. We'll see how that goes for them
Number 5 is impossible without a single market deal.
accel
Member
They told how to spend it.
I didn't have my hipes up tbh.
IPSOS Mori poll results.
22% of people don't know if we will leave Europe, 16% believe we will stay in. So a third currently with me in denial!
Also 48% think we should have a general election before we leave to people can vote on plans outside the EU. Given the other poll that had 60% wanting an election before we leave it seems that there is already quite a strong feeling that this needs further confirmation from people before we go.
What I don't get is how that affects parties or politics - it flings so much in the air. GE before we trigger article 50 and we won't know what we get. GE after we trigger article 50 and we might not be able to stop it happening. FEels like a lot of people don;'t understand exactly how one way this process is...
22% of people don't know if we will leave Europe, 16% believe we will stay in. So a third currently with me in denial!
Also 48% think we should have a general election before we leave to people can vote on plans outside the EU. Given the other poll that had 60% wanting an election before we leave it seems that there is already quite a strong feeling that this needs further confirmation from people before we go.
What I don't get is how that affects parties or politics - it flings so much in the air. GE before we trigger article 50 and we won't know what we get. GE after we trigger article 50 and we might not be able to stop it happening. FEels like a lot of people don;'t understand exactly how one way this process is...
Just for perspective a 1% drop per year in GDP equals £18 billion. At even a conservative 35% taxed rate this is £6 billion per year of lost money to the exchequer.
Now that Gove has admitted that he can only give £100m in savings per week ( which remain said was closer to our cost of membership) to the NHS, this means that any drop of more than 1% of GDP caused by leaving the biggest market in the world will have wiped out all the savings in one go.
Well done lads, well done.
Now that Gove has admitted that he can only give £100m in savings per week ( which remain said was closer to our cost of membership) to the NHS, this means that any drop of more than 1% of GDP caused by leaving the biggest market in the world will have wiped out all the savings in one go.
Well done lads, well done.
Tory's can simply decide not to have a GE beforehand. It doesn't matter even if that poll said 70%. They know they risk not coming back into power, so they wouldn't do it.
I love the fact he's promising 100million by 2020. That's so far into the future given current circumstances it's a joke - and so completely against what they campaigned on, which was clearly 350m a week that would be going into the NGS straight away.
I mean hell, Labour should just promise 150m from tackling tax evasion. That far out you can promise bloody anything and come up with an easy way to fund it.
I mean hell, Labour should just promise 150m from tackling tax evasion. That far out you can promise bloody anything and come up with an easy way to fund it.
Finnish minister of foreign affairs Timo Soini is getting fucking roasted by the rest of the parliament today.
He went to see UK about this whole Brexit thing, and he's the head of True Finn's Party (similar to say, UKIP), and he's been heard talking about how there "loud discussion" about EU membership here while in actuality it's pretty clear we're pro-EU (according to study few days ago, at least 70% support EU membership).
To give you a better image, imagine if instead of UK, another big country was leaving EU, and UK was very pro-EU but their Foreign Secretary was Nigel Farage, and he's been voicing his very personal opinions abroad as fact
He went to see UK about this whole Brexit thing, and he's the head of True Finn's Party (similar to say, UKIP), and he's been heard talking about how there "loud discussion" about EU membership here while in actuality it's pretty clear we're pro-EU (according to study few days ago, at least 70% support EU membership).
To give you a better image, imagine if instead of UK, another big country was leaving EU, and UK was very pro-EU but their Foreign Secretary was Nigel Farage, and he's been voicing his very personal opinions abroad as fact
accel
Member
Not a bad set of points (apart from point 4, which I also don't understand, maybe I am missing something).
It depends what they want. There's also the issue that if their numbers do drop through the floor they lose their democratic mandate, and there's a lot more than 12 pro-EU conservatives who would happily start voting against the government at this point.
If May doesn't;t actually want us to come out of the EU, then she can bargain hard, get a terrible deal (because that's all we;be got), then call a general election and position herself as having fought the hardest fight possible. That's one way to get out of leaving the EU without directly ignoring the referendum.
Passporting: www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36630606
I hope you understand that Labour as basically trying to get a set of deals that are essentially what we already had, but without any of the special privileges. They should be fighting against the referendum, it's stupid.
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The EU Investment Bank has nothing to do with bank passporting though. That's what point number 5 means.
accel
Member
You are talking about the short term. Yes, in the short term everyone is worse off.
That's not what the UK had - the UK had all that and additional controls from the EU / agreements it wanted out of. Ie, the proverbial free movement (of people).
I... Yeah I misread, forgive me.
I really want to hear what the long term plan, in the form of a plan.
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Labour wants to control immigration now? Since when? Also, good luck with that.
I just don't even know what Labour(More specifically Corbyn) are playing at.
He wasn't going to stand a chance of getting in anyway, between his total lack of MP support, and the fact his lefty views aren't a massive hit everywhere. Now he decides to also go after the same 52% that the Tories are going after? It's madness. I mean I get he was always wanting to leave the UK, but is he really that delusional he can best the Tories with Labour in its current state?
He wasn't going to stand a chance of getting in anyway, between his total lack of MP support, and the fact his lefty views aren't a massive hit everywhere. Now he decides to also go after the same 52% that the Tories are going after? It's madness. I mean I get he was always wanting to leave the UK, but is he really that delusional he can best the Tories with Labour in its current state?
Camp Freddie
Member
My understanding is that the Tory membership only get a choice between the top 2 selected by MPs in a multiple round elimination, that has a similar effect to an AV vote.
So I guess it's either Gove or Crabb, alongside May. Which one depends on who the 2nd/3rd choices are for the Ledsom/Fox voters. Or if there are tactical defections from May by MPs that want to kick out Gove/Crabb from the membership vote.
Overall though, it's a much better system than Labour's, since the MPs can block any extremist candidates. Fuck knows how you can call yourself an opposition leader when most of your MPs don't support you.
I just realised that the SNP have more MPs than Corbyn has supporters.
Maybe he should make way for Angus Robertson (the SNP's commons leader and yes I did have to google that).
That Labour negotiating manifesto just seems like an initial negotiating stance to me. The good news about it is at least they recognise the important issue(London financial services). Not that it matters because in addition to Corbyn being unelectable the Labour party is now unelectable due to a year of disloyalty and backstabbing from the Blairites and the untenable situation in the party.
After that interview with the EU trade commissioner it's also clear the UK have no leverage, the best you can hope for is that parliament find a way to sabotage leaving. But the window for that is very limited because the EU isn't stupid and they'll be playing the political game to lead Britain to having to push the Article 50 button.
After that interview with the EU trade commissioner it's also clear the UK have no leverage, the best you can hope for is that parliament find a way to sabotage leaving. But the window for that is very limited because the EU isn't stupid and they'll be playing the political game to lead Britain to having to push the Article 50 button.
Please don't spread the misconception that anybody in Labour opposed to Corbyn is a Blairite.
Replace Corbyn with a decent leader who can communicate and you will get an immediate poll bump. People hate parties in turmoil - but they are fine with parties starting again with a new leader. Look at the poll boost Gordeon Brown received when he took over.
Mind you, after Brown -> Miliband -> Corbyn it seems Labour aren't capable of choosing a leader who can communicate well at all. Although somehow since leaving office Gordon Brown suddenly became capable of giving great, passionate effective speeches?
Yeah there was a jab about SNP being the opposition in parliament the other day because of that fact.
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