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[Izuna]

https://youtu.be/EbFhlfnJep0

EDIT: probably already posted

 

[accel]

I really want to hear what the long term plan, in the form of a plan.

I can only say general words which I am sure will be met with 'it's too general' and 'woah, good luck'. The gist is that the EU is inefficient and the UK can be more efficient without it.

 

[Tregard]

Greens all the way, baby.

Caroline Lucas is a model MP and Natalie Bennett is a fellow Australian dual-citizen so she's cool by me.

And they actually give a shit about equality too.

I'm thinking if the Greens did a deal with the LibDems, that could work out quite well for them potentially.

 

[kmag]

You are talking about the short term. Yes, in the short term everyone is worse off.



That's not what the UK had - the UK had all that and additional controls from the EU / agreements it wanted out of. Ie, the proverbial free movement (of people).

And we will be in the medium to long term. We had the lowest growth rates in the G7 pre-accession to the EU and that was when we actually made and exported shit.

It might be hard to for certain types to wrap their heads around but the UK isn't some special little flower. We're resource poor, our main selling point has been as the gateway to common market for Asia and the US. We've slit the throat of our non insurance financial sector which is about the only sector which was actually world leading. Basically we might be able to prosper in a race to the bottom making ourselves more competitive than our European neighbours by dismantling lots of 'red tape' (i.e consumer, employee, health safety provisions)

And lost growth just now requires far greater growth in future years to catch up, if you lose 1% just now you actually need greater than 2% just to keep up to where you would be.

 

[Mr. Sam]

Watching Michael Gove's speech on BBC news: this is not a man that inspires confidence. This is a man whose lunch money you take.

 

[Izuna]

I can only say general words which I am sure will be met with 'it's too general' and 'woah, good luck'. The gist is that the EU is inefficient and the UK can be more efficient without it.

I have no problem with you saying that, heck I'm able to perfectly articulate the benefits of the EU myself. But I, or other people, can share links or comments of why it would be better, not anecdotes.

It's too early to tell if Leave was a great idea or not, but it seems to be the vote of the heart.

In terms of inclusion, I think the EU, whether efficient or not, is the right idea. My concern is that us leaving gives us no say in what the EU is, and if the EU continues to grow without us and our short-term setbacks are just long enough, whatever scary future for the EU is, we'd be powerless to stop it from annexing our way of life.

 

[Maledict]

And lost growth just now requires far greater growth in future years to catch up, if you lose 1% just now you actually need greater than 2% just to keep up to where you would be.

This is a really key point that I don't think most people understand. I didn't get it until someone at the treasury gave a really hair raising presentation on the impacts of the 2008 financial crisis. It's like compound interest - every bit lost now requires far further growth just to catch up later on.

 

[accel]

We had the lowest growth rates in the G7 pre-accession to the EU and that was when we actually made and exported shit.

Yes, this was the case. Things change, the EU became much more stagnant.

I have no problem with you saying that, heck I'm able to perfectly articulate the benefits of the EU myself. But I, or other people, can share links or comments of why it would be better, not anecdotes.

It's too early to tell if Leave was a great idea or not, but it seems to be the vote of the heart.

I shared some links and comments up the thread, although not a lot, because (a) there has been a constant flurry of news, and (b) we all are in a shock to a degree and so right now there's a lot of talk and emotion, while numbers hopefully will come into power later.

I genuinely believe that the UK is better off out of the EU, it's not a vote of heart in my case, although I obviously can't say for others.

 

[Rodelero]

You are talking about the short term. Yes, in the short term everyone is worse off.

I didn't see "In The Short Term You'll All Be Worse Off" on the side of a bus anywhere.

God the dishonesty of this entire situation is disgusting.

 

[mclem]

Clown, May will squash this fool.

That's unfair, he did an excellent job of uniting teachers.

Against him.

 

[BossDarkseid]

I don't know if this is a tragic-bad thing but earlier when people were suggesting Labour split into a new Democratic party i was thinking "Hmm...Liberal Democrats?" only to THEN realize the name was taken >_>

 

[heidern]

Please don't spread the misconception that anybody in Labour opposed to Corbyn is a Blairite.

What? Lots of the people opposing Corbyn are Blairites. It has spread beyond them now but when Corbyn first got elected Blairites were definitely sniping and refusing to support him as leader(maybe there were non-Blairites at the time too). This was a tactical error since they weren't just undermining him they were undermining the credibility of the party. Even if they depose him now the damage to the party has already been done.

 

[Izuna]

I don't know if this is a tragic-bad thing but earlier when people were suggesting Labour split into a new Democratic party i was thinking "Hmm...Liberal Democrats?" only to THEN realize the name was taken >_>

I wonder if young people never heard of the Lib Dems and just remember the name Nick Clegg and THE GOVERNMENT.

I've been thinking, all they need to do is figure out a way to make universities free/wipe off student finance debt, and then they can save us from ourselves.

If I was SUPER rich this is what I'd be working with them on. We need them in power.

I shared some links and comments up the thread, although not a lot, because (a) there has been a constant flurry of news, and (b) we all are in a shock to a degree and so right now there's a lot of talk and emotion, while numbers hopefully will come into power later.

I genuinely believe that the UK is better off out of the EU, it's not a vote of heart in my case, although I obviously can't say for others.

Like, my sensitivity comes from living with the most insufferable Leave supporter (who is everything said about Leave supporters, Trump and Nigel favouring to boot, whilst being a minority ffs), and I wish to prove to myself that not everyone who voted Leave -- at least in terms of who I communicate with, are like that privately.

We've lost tak3n who at times actually posted some more... informative views... at times... (rarely) and it is actually refreshing.

 

[Real Hero]

What? Lots of the people opposing Corbyn are Blairites. It has spread beyond them now but when Corbyn first got elected Blairites were definitely sniping and refusing to support him as leader(maybe there were non-Blairites at the time too). This was a tactical error since they weren't just undermining him they were undermining the credibility of the party. Even if they depose him now the damage to the party has already been done.

yep they should have let him fail then called for him to go, but no you had tony fucking blair saying he wouldn't ever vote for him when he was obviously going to become leader.

 

[Camp Freddie]

I just don't even know what Labour(More specifically Corbyn) are playing at.

He wasn't going to stand a chance of getting in anyway, between his total lack of MP support, and the fact his lefty views aren't a massive hit everywhere. Now he decides to also go after the same 52% that the Tories are going after? It's madness. I mean I get he was always wanting to leave the UK, but is he really that delusional he can best the Tories with Labour in its current state?

Corbyn:
I got 70% of labour voters to back "Remain"
I'm now going to campaign on a Brexit platform - and not just some namby-pamby Norway option!

The Labour promises that free movement ends while free trade and financial-passporting remain are the ultimate in I'll have my cake and eat it, even though I won't be the one baking it.

 

[captain wow]

Not seen this posted yet.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...e-cancelled-or-delayed-says-francois-hollande

 

[BossDarkseid]

I wonder if young people never heard of the Lib Dems and just remember the name Nick Clegg and THE GOVERNMENT.

I've been thinking, all they need to do is figure out a way to make universities free/wipe off student finance debt, and then they can save us from ourselves.

If I was SUPER rich this is what I'd be working with them on. We need them in power.

I'm not that young

However i understand your point...and it seems somewhat believable

My Mum has been a Lib Dem voter for years (Chris Grayling's been our MP for 15 years or so though so boo) so i've been aware of them and have voted Lab or Lib Dem in any relevant elections in my area since i've been able...

If i was filthy rich i'd work out how little i need to live in a nice house/pay the bills etc then team up with Lib Dems or form a Superparty and work towards reducing and eliminating tuition fees...or something similarly pipe-dreamy. I feel like education should be free, and not to diminish the quality of teaching but the opportunity to go to a good school or study at university should not be denied to anyone because of a financial barrier.

 

[Zaph]

Not seen this posted yet.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...e-cancelled-or-delayed-says-francois-hollande

Of corse he'd say that, he smells London's blood in the water

 

[Camp Freddie]

That's unfair, he did an excellent job of uniting teachers.

Against him.

If Gove gets in, I fully expect a Glorious Revolution where we invite some European head of state to invade us because our official leader is a useless piece of shit.
Germany probably wouldn't be up for it, but I reckon we could persuade the French. Spain seems to have a few too many political parties at the moment, so maybe we could borrow one (preferably not that awfully corrupt one).

 

[Izuna]

I'm not that young

However i understand your point...and it seems somewhat believable

My Mum has been a Lib Dem voter for years (Chris Grayling's been our MP for 15 years or so though so boo) so i've been aware of them and have voted Lab or Lib Dem in any relevant elections in my area since i've been able...

If i was filthy rich i'd work out how little i need to live in a nice house/pay the bills etc then team up with Lib Dems or form a Superparty and work towards reducing and eliminating tuition fees...or something similarly pipe-dreamy. I feel like education should be free, and not to diminish the quality of teaching but the opportunity to go to a good school or study at university should not be denied to anyone because of a financial barrier.

;P

They don't need to return the cap or abolish fees -- they can keep them for EU and International Students (as far as they're concerned, they won't have any additional reason to second guess studying here) -- but make it so that British nationals don't owe the Student Finance they receive. That way you keep the system in place but make the very small reshuffling at the HMRC to make the money stop coming out of our payslips. The Unis still get their funding, so they don't go bust or become public institutions, but that 40 or so percent of projected tuition fees that are expected to come back in just don't.

Hell, we probably lost that much in GDP since this abysmal vote.

(They could also get away with saying that anyone who has already paid since the won't get a refund, so long as they explain that early on... it'll sink in and people will accept it's better than nothing).

Then over time we can work on making sure that student accommodation isn't so fucked, situations like myself where I worked almost full-time and yet ended up homeless because I had no home address to return to doesn't happen, but that's a fight for later on.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

If Gove gets in, I fully expect a Glorious Revolution where we invite some European head of state to invade us because our official leader is a useless piece of shit.
Germany probably wouldn't be up for it, but I reckon we could persuade the French. Spain seems to have a few too many political parties at the moment, so maybe we could borrow one (preferably not that awfully corrupt one).

A slight irony to this is that Gove, in trying to rewrite the history curriculum, specifically bemoaned people's lack of understanding about the Glorious Revolution (he had a very British sense of what was important in history).

 

[Sumio Mondo]

Is this a strange world in which Labour focus more on businesses and Tories talk abut wealth inequalities or is my impression skewed?

And you believe the Tories? At least Labour are being more honest with their plan outright.

 

[Bold One]

been a life-long Labour voter, I can not stand by those policies.

its the Lib Dems or Greens for me

 

[The Friendly Monster]

been a life-long Labour voter, I ca not stand by those policies.

its the Lib Dems or Greens for me

Seriously...what the hell are they playing at...?

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

Watching that gove speech, something is up. Nobody could seriously expect this man to win.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

From what I understand Labour MP want to shift more towards the right because they want to win elections.
Corbyn is die-hard lefty, not compromising.

Labour going more right, wouldn't that make them Tories essentially?

 

[theaface]

Question - if both parties feel like they MUST do something about immigration because the electorate demands it, isn't the easier solution to look at measures to reduce non-EU immigration? I'm basing that on the fact that it accounts for a larger proportion of immigrants than those within the EU and whilst not consequence-free, might give us a means to avoid the Brexit shitstorm? It's a possible way or saying that we didn't follow the vote, we followed the route cause of it? I think the whole thing is a nonsense either way, but just a thought.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

From what I understand Labour MP want to shift more towards the right because they want to win elections.
Corbyn is die-hard lefty, not compromising.

Labour going more right, wouldn't that make them Tories essentially?

I don't think they want to shift to the fight at all. I think they just want to remain in the centre and corybn and his minions want labour to go to the extreme left.

 

[Zafir]

From what I understand Labour MP want to shift more towards the right because they want to win elections.
Corbyn is die-hard lefty, not compromising.

Labour going more right, wouldn't that make them Tories essentially?

They just want to be centre left again, as they know it's the best possible stance to take if you want to get elected.

 

[Moosichu]

Question - if both parties feel like they MUST do something about immigration because the electorate demands it, isn't the easier solution to look at measures to reduce non-EU immigration? I'm basing that on the fact that it accounts for a larger proportion of immigrants than those within the EU and whilst not consequence-free, might give us a means to avoid the Brexit shitstorm? It's a possible way or saying that we didn't follow the vote, we followed the route cause of it? I think the whole thing is a nonsense either way, but just a thought.

I think it ultimately comes down to the fact the UK is such an international powerhouse because of immigration. The government has been cutting down on non-EU migration, which in practice means things like preventing students who have studied here at Uni getting a working visa. Which is madness.

 

[Izuna]

Maybe Corbyn's plan all along was to destroy Labour and give us our LibDems back. Cameron was already taken out. But sadly, May is the final boss here.

Question - if both parties feel like they MUST do something about immigration because the electorate demands it, isn't the easier solution to look at measures to reduce non-EU immigration? I'm basing that on the fact that it accounts for a larger proportion of immigrants than those within the EU and whilst not consequence-free, might give us a means to avoid the Brexit shitstorm? It's a possible way or saying that we didn't follow the vote, we followed the route cause of it? I think the whole thing is a nonsense either way, but just a thought.

No one but Nigel Farage would touch this topic, and currently, he doesn't need to. The fact is, EU migrants are a small piece of the immigration pie, so any Leave voter who was against immigration were barking up the wrong tree.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

Question - if both parties feel like they MUST do something about immigration because the electorate demands it, isn't the easier solution to look at measures to reduce non-EU immigration? I'm basing that on the fact that it accounts for a larger proportion of immigrants than those within the EU and whilst not consequence-free, might give us a means to avoid the Brexit shitstorm? It's a possible way or saying that we didn't follow the vote, we followed the route cause of it? I think the whole thing is a nonsense either way, but just a thought.

What gets me is the majority of people's concerns with immigration are based on non-eu immigration.

You are not going to convince me 17 million people are concerned about the Polish, Spanish and Italian.

Even if we add the Turks, Lithuanian and Russian, it still doesnt add up.

What other European nation is even here in significant numbers?

 

[GoldenCrow]

Watching that gove speech, something is up. Nobody could seriously expect this man to win.

The worst politician at the moment. I kind of have a feeling the reason the better candidates dropped out as the saw what happened to Gordon Brown and that what is about to come is going to be a lot worse. Whoever wants a long term political career in the tory party would be wise to avoid this round.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Question - if both parties feel like they MUST do something about immigration because the electorate demands it, isn't the easier solution to look at measures to reduce non-EU immigration? I'm basing that on the fact that it accounts for a larger proportion of immigrants than those within the EU and whilst not consequence-free, might give us a means to avoid the Brexit shitstorm? It's a possible way or saying that we didn't follow the vote, we followed the route cause of it? I think the whole thing is a nonsense either way, but just a thought.

Well, non-EU migration would probably require more of an overhaul of our overall system, and might get looked at as unnecessarily strict, if not unduly discriminatory - especially when EU migrants are, due to obvious demographics, more likely to possess lighter skin tones than those migrating from outside the EU. For any party that's not UKIP - who wouldn't care for such a policy to begin with - its a bad look.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

just heard my mother say
"I want my country back"

I am so fucking done

 

[Jasup]

Finnish minister of foreign affairs Timo Soini is getting fucking roasted by the rest of the parliament today.

He went to see UK about this whole Brexit thing, and he's the head of True Finn's Party (similar to say, UKIP), and he's been heard talking about how there "loud discussion" about EU membership here while in actuality it's pretty clear we're pro-EU (according to study few days ago, at least 70% support EU membership).

To give you a better image, imagine if instead of UK, another big country was leaving EU, and UK was very pro-EU but their Foreign Secretary was Nigel Farage, and he's been voicing his very personal opinions abroad as fact

But but, the discussion for a Finnish EU referendum (or Fixit) is now "open and loud as well". The citizen's initiative started by BB Sebastian has already been signed by over 25000 people!

But yes, overall the support for EU is very high. 70% of people even support staying in the Eurozone.

It's been quite something to follow that mess unfold.
BTW, The campaign for the EU referendum initiative is named "saviours of Europe", I find it cute.

 

[Izuna]

just heard my mother say
"I want my country back"

I am so fucking done

My Mom thinks the EU is solely responsible for Greece getting fucked.

 

[PJV3]

just heard my mother say
"I want my country back"

I am so fucking done

Is she a member of the aristocracy?

 

[Faddy]

Question - if both parties feel like they MUST do something about immigration because the electorate demands it, isn't the easier solution to look at measures to reduce non-EU immigration? I'm basing that on the fact that it accounts for a larger proportion of immigrants than those within the EU and whilst not consequence-free, might give us a means to avoid the Brexit shitstorm? It's a possible way or saying that we didn't follow the vote, we followed the route cause of it? I think the whole thing is a nonsense either way, but just a thought.

Non-EU immigrants are required for Britain to function. Most of those non-EU migrants are either students which provide huge sums of money for our universities, health workers who fill roles in the NHS and international business people who bring investment and jobs

 

[Izuna]

Non-EU immigrants are required for Britain to function. Most of those non-EU migrants are either students which provide huge sums of money for our universities, health workers who fill roles in the NHS and international business people who bring investment and jobs

And the only way to function without that is better education for the general population ~~ which isn't going to happen with the spending cuts.

 

[theaface]

Thanks for the thoughts about non-EU immigration, people. It's a million miles away from what I think or want, but I was interested to know why the politicians don't talk about it more.

 

[jelly]

Just for perspective a 1% drop per year in GDP equals £18 billion. At even a conservative 35% taxed rate this is £6 billion per year of lost money to the exchequer.

Now that Gove has admitted that he can only give £100m in savings per week ( which remain said was closer to our cost of membership) to the NHS, this means that any drop of more than 1% of GDP caused by leaving the biggest market in the world will have wiped out all the savings in one go.

Well done lads, well done.

They also need to fund Welsh, other UK areas, science, infrastructure etc. around the UK without EU funding.

Should start planting those trees that grow money, such a thing is real in this new utopia?

 

[Joni]

Non-EU immigrants are required for Britain to function. Most of those non-EU migrants are either students which provide huge sums of money for our universities, health workers who fill roles in the NHS and international business people who bring investment and jobs

I wonder why they would try to bring in nurses from outside of Europe when it was easier to get them in eastern europe.

 

[Halph n Halph]

I wonder why they would try to bring in nurses from outside of Europe when it was easier to get them in eastern europe.

I'm not 100% sure,but I think it allows for a more thorough check of competence.
I'm not saying Eu doctors and nurses are not competent by the way.

 

[Lego Boss]

been a life-long Labour voter, I can not stand by those policies.

its the Lib Dems or Greens for me

I said l would vote LIB ever again after their deal with the devil.

Now l can't vote Labour it has to be the Greens.

I have become nothing more than a protest vote.

Thanks Obama!

 

[Faddy]

And the only way to function without that is better education for the general population ~~ which isn't going to happen with the spending cuts.

Exactly. Specifically the NHS employs many non-EU nurses for the simple reason there aren't enough UK nurses. And not because people don't want to do the job but because the NHS can't afford to train more. Every year 3 times as many people apply for nursing courses as there are places available.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Cameron should say he's canceling his departure, call immediately for elections, says the Tories will run for a remain mandate and anyone in his party who wants the UK to exit to leave the party. He would win. UKIP would get some votes, but the conservatives would win because they'd get all the remain votes + those that regret voting leave + a bunch of labour votes since that party is in shambles.

Boris is out, Labour is out, all people would have left is to vote for UKIP if they want to leave, and they wouldn't win. The UK could throw this whole Brexit thing in the trash since Cameron could say he won the mandate to stay, which clearly supplants the non-binding poll-referendum, and run his campaign on how the leave campaigners had lied and how the proof is that when they won their leading chearleader quit because he never wanted it to win anyway and that it was just a power grab.

It's still possible to throw this referendum in the trash, but not if Cameron quits, considering all the others in line have basically commited themselves to leave.

 

[Izuna]

Cameron should say he's canceling his departure, call immediately for elections, says the Tories will run for a remain mandate and anyone in his party who wants the UK to exit to leave the party. He would win. UKIP would get some votes, but the conservatives would win because they'd get all the remain votes + those that regret voting leave + a bunch of labour votes since that party is in shambles.

Boris is out, Labour is out, all people would have left is to vote for UKIP, and they wouldn't win, and the UK could throw this whole Brexit thing in the trash since Cameron could say he won the mandate to stay, which clearly supplants the non-binding poll-referendum, and run his campaign on how the leave campaigners had lie and how the proof is that when they won their leading chearleader quit because he never wanted it to win anyway and that it was just a power grab.

How much do you hate the LIbDems to come up with this fantasy? Cameron would get slaughtered if he dared to that. The left nor the right would respect him.

 

[Ardenyal]

The citizen's initiative started by BB Sebastian has already been signed by over 25000 people!

What happened to the last petition? It seems to have gathered the required signatures in march. Guess it got rejected and now they try again...

 

[Mr. Sam]

What? Lots of the people opposing Corbyn are Blairites.

Apologies, I mistyped - I meant "everybody" - i.e. not everybody who opposes Corbyn is a Blairite.