I tried to eloberate on my second post, I hope it became more clear what I wanted to say.
OK, eh, this is now the point where I really dont want to help anymore
I took a trip to North Korea. (Pic heavy)
- Thread starter SuperBanana
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Fenderputty
Banned
Actually it is.
You're proposing the same stupid argument neo-liberals make about supporting welfare. I don't want my dollars going to pay for "X". Your dollars go to the government and is divided up. Who the fuck knows where it will end up, and why the fuck do you care when you know the government has labor camps?
Because a mod said that discussing the moral implications of taking such a trip are fine.
oyoshimaru
Member
The kid in the first photo of the kids is definitely wearing New Balance shoes, I wonder how they get them in there.
BibiMaghoo
Member
Cool thread OP, was nice to see some legit pictures. Probably what strikes me the most is what appears to be a lack of people even in a major city. Maybe it was the time or just the shots you took, but it looks really quiet for a city.
SuperBanana
Banned
I'm not saying the camps aren't bad. I'm saying it sucks for that guy but you go to NK and get told "You can do anything you want in this area but DO NOT go to level 5. Do not steal. Please respect us". So he gets wasted, goes to level 5, tries to steal shit, doesn't tell the guides(who could have gotten him out of it), then tries to leave and gets caught at customs. If you go to NK DON'T DO DUMB SHIT. Especially if you're technically from an enemy state. It's an easy rule to follow. so to be like "I can't believe he got 15 years, how can you go to a place like that?". Well, it's pretty easy. I didn't intend to be a moron.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
My favorite thread/documentary of the day. Thanks for the e-tour!!
Are you new on the internet? What are you gonna learn about this thread that dozens of identical threads all around won't tell? Or journalistic reports? Or actual death camp survivor experiences? Or books about that? Or is it too much effort to look that up?
OP saw an incredibly directed theatrical show that everyone who goes there sees. Don't believe me? Look it up.
What these threads do is bring up more curiosity and make it acceptable to visit North Korea, an inhuman dictatorship, bringing the country money and free good publicity. Or of course, if you don't give a shit about actual people suffering there, your curiosity naturally goes before their lives and deaths.
What really got me finally was the fact how similar this thread is to every previous one where people went there. What insight is there to see?
OP is not the reason I'm so mad. It's the fact it's not the first, not the 10th time. It's like the straw that broke camel's back. And I have high fever.
Yeah, all we get is the same regime allowed pictures. That's enough NK trip threads guys.
perfectchaos007
Member
If you steal a poster from a shop in America, you'll get a small misdemeanor fine of about $150 max. North Korea did a little more than that
VendettaRed07
Member
You stole DPRK money, right.
You should just be glad you are safe. There is a very real danger for people who travel there beyond people who do dumb things
But following that logic I can't go to any fucking country on the world map because every government does deplorable shit.
I've been living in China for the last year and let me tell you there's a lot of fucked up stuff going on here as well. Does that mean I support all of their camps, treatment of their minorities, their stance on Tibet, etc, etc? Ofcourse fucking not.
I love visiting the US but I sure as fuck don't support waterboarding or all the deplorable stuff they think is valid because it's in the best interest for the country.
So OP is visiting NK and it doesn't mean he's suddenly Dennis fucking Rodman holding Kim's hand and saying everything is A-ok in NK.
The_Darkest_Red
Member
The Omega Man
Member
Not it's not easy actually.
He might have broken the law but the country lacks a proper Retributive justice system, that punishment doesn't fit the crime.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Stealing-one-slice-of-pizza-results-in-life-3150629.php
The problem is that the guy had four felony convictions prior, though I do agree that stealing the pizza should not have been a felony, but clearly the same thing! How dare we criticize North Korea for this. :/
I am going to break this down, because you are either being naive, or purposefully peddling propaganda.
You do realize that what you saw was heavily measured, and not the true North Korea, right?
When people talk about illegally smuggling photos out, they are not talking about photos taken during their Disney-esc trip on rails. They are talking about photos taken from other areas, not usually allowed by visitors.
Why do you think you were not allowed off the premises while at the hotel?
SuperBanana
Banned
No, there's really not. Statistically it's one of the safest countries in the world. If you look at the number of travelers vs the number of people arrested it's virtually nothing. It just gets a lot of coverage because of the extreme sentencing. 13 Americans have been detained in North Korea since 1995. That's less than 1 per year. You understand the risks. You understand if things go wrong they might go REALLY fucking wrong but the chances of it happening on a 5 day trip is low and you're with profession tour guides. You don't go solo.
HyperCroutons
Member
Really interesting read but personally I would never set foot in North Korea for many different reasons even if the trip was full paid.
The Omega Man
Member
Thelonelykoopa
Member
its always cool to see images from north korea. Im surprised though that some of you didnt know North Korea made good beer it was one of the few things North Korea made which was really popular in South Korea during the subshine policy of the early 2000s.
the_batman
Banned
So OP goes on a rigidly guided tour of the human zoo that is Pyongyang, while never seeing the rest of the country and the deplorable places that are hidden from foreigners, and declares NK is alright.
Why are you spewing propaganda?
Well about that...
Do you realize how comical it is to cite crime statistics in a country where a fascist regime has an iron grip on the people and tortures and executes dissenters?
Yeah, they are definitely not letting any tourist go near or actually see the inhumane things they do over there. Stating you can tell fake from real because some things are ridiculously fake is a bit silly. I am glad you had a good time op, but I have to agree with most posters here.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
How in the world would the average person know that North Korea makes good beer?
SuperBanana
Banned
How is it propaganda? Statistically I, as a traveler, have a lower chance of being arrested or getting into trouble in NK than almost any other country based on the number of travelers vs the number arrested.
I'm talking about foreigners.
Fenderputty
Banned
Scale and scope are important are important factors here.
Chairmanchuck
Member
Because you are a foreigner...
NyMartin90
Member
I'd really like to go to Iran, any details you want to share?
He actually never left NK and is now forced to write semi-positive ambiguously worded posts about how alright NK is in between forced labor.
SuperBanana
Banned
That's what I'm talking about. x_x
The Omega Man
Member
And yet, you still don't see it
Is there a term like the Uncanny Valley that can be applied to a place? That's the closest term I can think of for how looking at pictures of North Korea makes me feel.
Of course he is.
Thelonelykoopa
Member
Well the average person no but typically Gaf is quite in the know politically so I assumed they would have knew one of North Korea most famous exports (outside of drugs deals with entities like the triads and yakuza).
What are these statistics? Because but you're going to have to give us a per capita statistic. I'm not sure if the number of tourists to London who get captured and used as political prisoners is higher than Pyongyang. But you're free to give me some data
Over the last decade, how many tourists have there been to DPRK and how many of them have been "unsafe"?
--
I think it's fair to talk about the morally of visiting DPRK if OP is going to suggest that it is in fact moral to do so.
Pro from Dover
Member
I watched a YouTube slide-show video that was supposed to show how awful and everything it all is there. But for fun, I watched the video again but had the Kiki's Delivery Service soundtrack play.
Ohh I agree with you on that but where do we draw the line?
Visiting Iran?
Visiting Syria?
When am I directly funding human rights violations and when am I just a tourist visiting a country and spending money?
Look I'm not saying he visited Disneyland and it's all great. Just saying I can't fault him for it and I think when someone is visiting North Korea or other countries that have shitty track records on the violation of human rights doesn't automatically make them supporters of the regime or of human rights violations.
I would love to visit Iran for example. But I definitely do not support their treatment of women or homosexuals. Maybe in your eyes it would be morally wrong for me to visit that country then, but I see it as a seperate issue and I don't think me not visiting is making a statement or making a change.
a Master Ninja
Member
What's the Pokemon Go situation? Did you catch Deerleader?
Good grief. You honestly believe this? How many countries watch their visitors at all times and tell them what to do or else. Seriously, you lost perspective.
It was part of the information package probably. You know those videos you get when you're about to land in another country?
SiegfriedFM
Member
Interesting to see, even if it is 99% the exact same things everyone gets to see. As mentioned, it at least reminds us that there are plenty of normal people over there living in a pretty fucked up world.
The cynicism and shaming in this thread is stupid though. No, of course all the visits are staged, but it's not like everyone's an actor. In fact, much like Truman Show, there is probably a bunch of people who just happen to do stuff nearby (and that everyone in Pyongyang is certified loyal to begin with). That said, I'm pretty certain there are instructions going out: "Alright, foreign devils will possibly be passing through here in two days so you'd better not try anything or it's camping time. Glory to the Leader!"
And I wouldn't be too bothered about spending a little money there either. It all goes to bribing the necessary people and giving their kids black market shoes. I mean - if you'd really start looking at exactly who you're paying for everyday, western goods, you'd feel pretty sick. Even something as innocent as an Iphone or a PS4 is put together in some sweatshop, not to mention all the cheap pirated goods people buy off Amazon.
I wouldn't ever, ever visit there myself though. Too scared of something random getting me into trouble and into a work camp. Even South Korea was a bit scary with the nationalism on display, and that's pretty much as normal and westernized as you get around there. Many of those pictures are straight out of totalitarian dystopias.
The cynicism and shaming in this thread is stupid though. No, of course all the visits are staged, but it's not like everyone's an actor. In fact, much like Truman Show, there is probably a bunch of people who just happen to do stuff nearby (and that everyone in Pyongyang is certified loyal to begin with). That said, I'm pretty certain there are instructions going out: "Alright, foreign devils will possibly be passing through here in two days so you'd better not try anything or it's camping time. Glory to the Leader!"
And I wouldn't be too bothered about spending a little money there either. It all goes to bribing the necessary people and giving their kids black market shoes. I mean - if you'd really start looking at exactly who you're paying for everyday, western goods, you'd feel pretty sick. Even something as innocent as an Iphone or a PS4 is put together in some sweatshop, not to mention all the cheap pirated goods people buy off Amazon.
I wouldn't ever, ever visit there myself though. Too scared of something random getting me into trouble and into a work camp. Even South Korea was a bit scary with the nationalism on display, and that's pretty much as normal and westernized as you get around there. Many of those pictures are straight out of totalitarian dystopias.
What the OP is trying to say (I think) is that you're statistically less probable to be:
- robbed
- physically hurt
- murdered
- incarcerated
when visiting NK (via a tourgroup since that's the only way).
VS. visiting other countries.
But let's not kid ourselves and say you'll have a higher chance to be send to a labor camp for a long ass time if you break a law whilst there (and the OP is saying, you're kind of an idiot if you manage to break one because they lay it out for you, before and during your trip on multiple occassions).
...I believe it.
Chittagong
Gold Member
Well done OP, amazing write up - makes me look lazy 
Agreed on the fantastic beer. One thing you might not have tried is the hangover, it's just as good as the beer is - I was throwing up in that paper walled Kaesong hotel the next morning, good god.
Don't worry about the negative comments, many of them are valid but you made a conscious decision aware of what you are doing.
Today I'm less optimistic about DPRK unfortunately. They seem to be getting crazier, and have reversed their opening up since I was there.
Agreed on the fantastic beer. One thing you might not have tried is the hangover, it's just as good as the beer is - I was throwing up in that paper walled Kaesong hotel the next morning, good god.
Don't worry about the negative comments, many of them are valid but you made a conscious decision aware of what you are doing.
Today I'm less optimistic about DPRK unfortunately. They seem to be getting crazier, and have reversed their opening up since I was there.
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