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[Crimson_Gold]

I think not even Sony themselves know how to market the device in a simple way, which generally makes no sense to me.

It seems like it would be pretty simple: Its a more powerful PS4. Depending on what devs do, it plays games in higher resolutions, enhances graphics, runs higher frames, or any combination of those 3 on a game by game basis.

Again, seems like it should be simple, so i don't understand exactly why they can't get it right.

But that's the thing, that's how stores and reps are marketing it. Forums are not indicative of how a message is being conveyed. The confusion in here comes for the desire to know precisely what's going to happen and that's impossible to know when each dev is free to do what they want after they meet the minimum requirements

 

[JoJo UK]

How much better? How long is a piece of string?

Twice as long as it is from the middle to one end.

Spoiler

sorry...

 

[Angel_DvA]

I think their communication is pretty bad because they haven't released the most basic thing when it comes to compare products: COMPARATIVE VIDEOS, like WTF ? how are we supposed to see improvement or what the PS4 Pro can do without them ?

I said it for weeks now, it's mind blowing than Sony still haven't released face off videos about OG PS4 vs 1080p Pro version or direct feed HDR 4K videos for people like me who have the technology...

the last day I was showing to my friends Horizon 4K Youtube videos on my screen and they were like: "WOW that looks really great but I don't really see what's the difference with what we already saw about this game on PS4..." and I was like: "Yes of course but this is a Youtube video and it has compression and it can't show HDR and as you have seen it in movies, it can be amazing for gaming..." so they said: "Ok , so why don't you show us what it'll really looks like at the end on your screen ?" and I was like : -_-'... ... ... Because Sony is fucking stupidddddd !!!! ).

Please Sony, just SHOW US what PS4 Pro can do compared to the OG PS4, not with words, with screens or videos and for the love of Gaming, just give us your TGS 4K HDR direct feed videos, thank you.

 

[cakely]

2 things:

1) I've never had concerns about it being a failure. Something I've already posted a few times in this thread

2) So you're saying retailers need to lie about it to sell it?

How have I moved the goal posts? My very first post in this thread was responding to a person who is currently working in retail genuinely asking how he's selling the console to customers. How is that not then related to the target consumer for it? Not sure why you're so instantly on the defensive over something not worth being defensive about.

They're lucky they got the price in at $399 because anymore would have been damn hard to justify for even enthusiasts.

No 4K BD
No native 4K games
Same RAM
Same CPU (sped up)
Higher power consumption

Just. Yikes.

Yes. Why are we so instantly defensive?

It's because a couple of posters are filling this thread of up with really obvious concern trolling. "Yikes".

 

[platocplx]

I think they're doing the simple way. No fanfares. It was also introduced in a short PS Meeting. No megalomania like it was in feb 2013.

It's already available for pre-order and for all we know it's doing really solid.

There is a part of GAF that don't want to accept this as a valid approach, who knows. Everything is bad, but they don't have any proof to support their rantings. Right now it's just wishful thinking: the age of Sony is done.

yeah I mean there were people wondering why there was no clapping and stuff when Sony had it as a media only event lol. Its just a difference approach they give people a new option and especially since this is their first time it seems to be they are being cautious and deliberate about it.

 

[mckmas8808]

i'm not confused by the ps4 pro, but i think sony may be in the wrong mindset with it. it remains to be seen what the scorpio is, but if microsoft drops the xb1 branding for it and basically claims it's part of a new and final generation, it could leave sony looking like they lost the plot a bit with how dedicated hardware will be treated moving forward.

Except MS will look like a joke if they made the Scorpio there "next-gen" console. Unless the stats change, that machine with only 12 GBs of RAM is not "next-gen" worthy.

 

[Vinc]

Mafia 3 comes out a month before the pro.
Listen you dont have to buy it thats the beauty of it. All your games work. I dont understand all the mistrust about this console. Sony has been extremely honest about their hardware this gen ive seen the demos which you can find easily and watch on a 4k screen. Or read that massive faq that explains everything. At this point you and others are splitting hairs to the point where your confused that its okay to not get the system and still be happy with your system.

Replace Mafia 3 with TLG, then. As an owner of a 1080p TV, like the majority of people, I have no way of knowing where I'll get benefits and won't. I never talked about mistrust, we were talking about the clarity of what the console does. You and others seem to say that it's clear as day and that it's just "a better PS4". That's very true, I think everybody understands that, but we're arguing that the benefits of the console aren't quite clear.

What I liked about the original 360 launch is that the way they were selling the console's features was very clear. Every game was to have achievements, every game had to run at 720p or above (later reversed, but at launch it was clear), every game had party chat, every game let you listen to music, every game was constantly connected online if you wanted it to. The value proposition was clear.

Giving the choice to devs might be the right choice, but it makes the console's value proposition less clear to the end user. I think that's undeniable, but for some reason some people get very defensive over this opinion.

It was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11XjMplfTd4&feature=youtu.be&t=1753

If you think that wording is too confusing you really need to get over yourself.

Can you give me an exact timestamp? I don't remember them saying every game HAD to support the Pro in the conference, and following your link didn't help as he's not even talking about that.

 

[Vinc]

Edit: Double post

 

[mckmas8808]

"Hello, would you like to preorder a PS4 pro?"
"What's that?"
"A more powerful version of the PS4 that will play all of the new releases and some older titles faster and sharper."
"MY BRAIN OH GOD I CANT HANDLE ALL OF THIS INFORMATION!"
*customer runs out of store*

LOL! Thank you. It's not that hard.

So yep, never worked in retail. Let alone videogame retail.

Then you lose a sale I guess. One wonders how that consumer made their car purchase that got them to the store though. If a 10 second conversation breaks their brain then......whoa!

 

[wapplew]

I think their communication is pretty bad because they haven't released the most basic thing when it comes to compare products: COMPARATIVE VIDEOS, like WTF ? how are we supposed to see improvement or what the PS4 Pro can do without them ?

I said it for weeks now, it's mind blowing than Sony still haven't released face off videos about OG PS4 vs 1080p Pro version or direct feed HDR 4K videos for people like me who have the technology...

the last day I was showing to my friends Horizon 4K Youtube videos on my screen and they were like: "WOW that looks really great but I don't really see what's the difference with what we already saw about this game on PS4..." and I was like: "Yes of course but this is a Youtube video and it has compression and it can't show HDR and as you have seen it in movies, it can be amazing for gaming..." so they said: "Ok , so why don't you show us what it'll really looks like at the end on your screen ?" and I was like : -_-'... ... ... Because Sony is fucking stupidddddd !!!! ).

Please Sony, just SHOW US what PS4 Pro can do compared to the OG PS4, not with words, with screens or videos and for the love of Gaming, just give us your TGS 4K HDR direct feed videos, thank you.

They won't do that ever, PS4 is their major product not PS4 Pro.
It's obvious PS4 Pro is not something Sony focus on, it's barely mention at TGS, super low key meeting, showed Sony taken a rather passive approach with Pro.

 

[ItIsOkBro]

Releasing ps4 pro comparison footage is like releasing vr footage. As in, most people won't be able to experience the benefits with their current monitors and it be a disaster.

 

[TGO]

Don't know what ya about....I ain't seen no marketing or communication outside "it's 4k" at the PlayStation Meeting

 

[watdaeff4]

Ok.....just in defense of the OP.

I have a Pro pre-ordered. I don't have a 4K TV. I was on the fence a bit because from Sony's messaging regarding the console, it came across as possibly having a " better" experience/graphics, but not clear at all as to how, or "how much" (hard to quantify a bit I know).

It wasn't until the people here on GAF that explained it to me that I understood.

Granted, I'm not tech-saavy so that's part of the issue, but if you think lay-people out there (that don't keep up on this like Gaffers do) with "only" 1080p (or less) TVs out there have a clear idea of what this console will and won't do for them, then I would strongly disagree.

Not making any difference for us in retail. We've been able to clearly communicate to our customers what so many on here seem to be willingly obtuse about. Preorders have been very solid, our in store Sony rep is already really excited about the response we've had from both new buyers and existing PS4 owners. We've been able to talk to our customers very clearly about what the product is, and there's been a positive response.

It's stunning to me how people on GAF have seemed to be almost deliberately obfuscating things for themselves, when the information has been communicated with almost agonizing specificity by Sony, and then sources like Digital Foundry provide greater clarity and specifics in technical respects.

Seriously. Blows my fucking mind.

Thanks for the insight Abdiel, but you taking the time to educate the consumers as a retail employee isn't really indicative on how effective Sony's messaging/marketing is. Your post demonstrates that you and the people you train understand and then can clearly relay that to the consumer. Not that Sony is doing it. And maybe I'm reading tea leaves here, but I'm guessing these people you have discussed it with had heard about it coming in and didn't know the true scoop. Thus leading to you and your team needing to clarify/explain/educate (whatever verbiage you would like to use).

I disagree Sony has been 'agonizing specific' esp when it comes to people with 1080p sets. And while yes Digital Foundry gave great info, them along with Gaf helped me decide to preorder one, there are several articles I read when doing my research that came across stating that only those with a 4K TV would benefit which according to DF and GAF is not true. So why would they say that? Are they being "willingly obtuse" also?

I'm not trying to attack you, but to let you see a side that just because this is child's play to you doesn't mean it is for the rest of us, and maybe, just maybe, Sony hasn't been completely great at communicating the benefits to non-4K owners.

Releasing ps4 pro comparison footage is like releasing vr footage. As in, most people won't be able to experience the benefits with their current monitors and it be a disaster.

I understand your point regarding 4K/HDR, but if there are obvious advantages for us peasant non-4K TV owners, then they could still do that........

 

[Z3M0G]

It was not named "PS4K" since that would have basically been a lie.

"HDR HDR HDR" yet all PS4s now have HDR support as of last week.

Yet at the same time, Sony still wants to push the sale of 4K TVs...

 

[Bousf]

I don't think it's confusing at all, but I want to see Pro at work a bit more, that can never hurt. Devs should do side-to-side comparisons of games running on both PS4 and PS4 Pro on both 4K/HDR and FHD TVs (the owners of each TV set will be able to "sample" the upgrade) because an image says more than a thousand specs.

There's time for that though, so let's hope we get some solid comparisons, I'm in for PS4 Pro regardless because I know there will be an improvement in performance that will grow larger over time, so there isn't really much more for me to ponder.

Oh, and the PS Meeting isn't the only thing that has been said about PS4 Pro. There is a HUMONGOUS FAQ on the PS Blog, numerous interviews from Sony people and lots of sources for people to get a grip on what PS4 Pro is. So if you feel confused, do some digging and you may find the answers you look for

 

[platocplx]

Replace Mafia 3 with TLG, then. As an owner of a 1080p TV, like the majority of people, I have no way of knowing where I'll get benefits and won't. I never talked about mistrust, we were talking about the clarity of what the console does. You and others seem to say that it's clear as day and that it's just "a better PS4". That's very true, I think everybody understands that, but we're arguing that the benefits of the console aren't quite clear.

What I liked about the original 360 launch is that the way they were selling the console's features was very clear. Every game was to have achievements, every game had to run at 720p or above (later reversed, but at launch it was clear), every game had party chat, every game let you listen to music, every game was constantly connected online if you wanted it to. The value proposition was clear.

Giving the choice to devs might be the right choice, but it makes the console's value proposition less clear to the end user. I think that's undeniable, but for some reason some people get very defensive over this opinion.



Can you give me an exact timestamp? I don't remember them saying every game HAD to support the Pro in the conference, and following your link didn't help as he's not even talking about that.

you are just moving goal posts on this. TLG doesnt come out until December after the console launches its pretty obvious the game probably got delayed due to the pro and you probally will hear more before release. There are several Big games coming out in November that will have support and more announcements will be coming.

You dont have to get it at launch. There are many people comfortable with making the purchase and at this point you really are splitting hairs on this.

The benefits are clear to a majority of people, for your analogy of making this as if its a new platform its not its an extension and its acting as such comparing this to the 360 adds nothing to the discussion its not a totally new platform its an extension of the existing one. At this point you can just wait and see or dont believe all the benefits they have listed Also includings stuff like 1080p streaming, 1080p capture and 4k screenshots as other pieces.

 

[Abdiel]

Hence why my very first post in this thread was asking how he's selling it. I was genuinely curious. Never got a reply.

Sorry, different time zones. Just getting back to work, and also pages means I didn't see your post.

What we've done is specifically make sure to clarify the features it has. Making comparisons to existing examples. Newer iPads and the like, are very clear lines, where consumers can grasp that it keeps the same library without any loss, but new benefits, for a very manageable price. It offers an upgrade in technology and performance for those who wish to do so. Those who see no reason can instead benefit from the now cheaper than ever piece of the standard ps4.

These lines are very clear to communicate with how Sony has explained them. They haven't asked us to promise things they can't deliver, and they've made sure not to make statements that are going to over reach. Showing customers hdr and 4k content is pretty amazing, and now that we have increasingly affordable tvs with these options, and now with a gaming hardware that will provide games that can take advantage of those options without making a pc, is a powerful message, especially with how consistent the ps4 has been.

 

[Vinc]

you are just moving goal posts on this. TLG doesnt come out until December after the console launches its pretty obvious the game probably got delayed due to the pro and you probally will hear more before release. There are several Big games coming out in November that will have support and more announcements will be coming.

You dont have to get it at launch. There are many people comfortable with making the purchase and at this point you really are splitting hairs on this.

The benefits are clear to a majority of people, for your analogy of making this as if its a new platform its not its an extension and its acting as such comparing this to the 360 adds nothing to the discussion its not a totally new platform its an extension of the existing one. At this point you can just wait and see or dont believe all the benefits they have listed Also includings stuff like 1080p streaming, 1080p capture and 4k screenshots as other pieces.

Whatever game you prefer, it still doesn't change my point. I don't get what your speculation about the game has to do with the point I'm making. Replace TLG or Mafia with whatever game you want. The benefits for someone with a 1080p TV aren't obvious to anyone because not all games will have those, and not all games will necessarily render above 1080p. So depending on the TV you have, some games will have benefits and some won't. I'm not moving any goalposts, that's what I've been arguing since the beginning. The benefits the console brings are too loosely defined because devs are given freedom to do what they want, making it impossible to tell which game will have what rendering settings.

My analogy with the 360 has nothing to do with it being a new platform, it has to do with making sure customers get to see the value they'll get out of a product before purchase. As someone buying TLG / Mafia / Whatever future game with a 1080 TV, I don't know that I'll get benefits at all from the machine. I'd LIKE to know, but I don't. That's what's unclear about the whole thing. It's really not that hard to understand.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

Yes. Why are we so instantly defensive?

It's because a couple of posters are filling this thread of up with really obvious concern trolling. "Yikes".

Not sure what your post proves? That second quote is from the Pro announce thread? Not this one? Even now, that second post holds true. Everyone acknowledges the great price. How many would buy it if it were more given what it lacks?

So again, I never concern trolled anything. Mu first post in here was asking someone in retail how they're selling it to customers.

Nice stalking though. I'm sure you thought you "had me" there.

Sorry, different time zones. Just getting back to work, and also pages means I didn't see your post.

What we've done is specifically make sure to clarify the features it has. Making comparisons to existing examples. Newer iPads and the like, are very clear lines, where consumers can grasp that it keeps the same library without any loss, but new benefits, for a very manageable price. It offers an upgrade in technology and performance for those who wish to do so. Those who see no reason can instead benefit from the now cheaper than ever piece of the standard ps4.

These lines are very clear to communicate with how Sony has explained them. They haven't asked us to promise things they can't deliver, and they've made sure not to make statements that are going to over reach. Showing customers hdr and 4k content is pretty amazing, and now that we have increasingly affordable tvs with these options, and now with a gaming hardware that will provide games that can take advantage of those options without making a pc, is a powerful message, especially with how consistent the ps4 has been.

Thanks for the reply. iPad analogy is a good one for the more casual gamer.

 

[Neuromancer]

Sorry, different time zones. Just getting back to work, and also pages means I didn't see your post.

What we've done is specifically make sure to clarify the features it has. Making comparisons to existing examples. Newer iPads and the like, are very clear lines, where consumers can grasp that it keeps the same library without any loss, but new benefits, for a very manageable price. It offers an upgrade in technology and performance for those who wish to do so. Those who see no reason can instead benefit from the now cheaper than ever piece of the standard ps4.

These lines are very clear to communicate with how Sony has explained them. They haven't asked us to promise things they can't deliver, and they've made sure not to make statements that are going to over reach. Showing customers hdr and 4k content is pretty amazing, and now that we have increasingly affordable tvs with these options, and now with a gaming hardware that will provide games that can take advantage of those options without making a pc, is a powerful message, especially with how consistent the ps4 has been.

Is it safe to say customers aren't running out your store screaming after these discussions?

 

[ViolentP]

My issue with Sony's marketing of the Pro is simple. You cannot commandeer an established term and alter its definition. If this were the first time the world had seen 4K (upscaled or native), call it whatever you want. But what 4K is has been established for some time and what the Pro does ain't that.

 

[Purest 78]

It's a new Ps4 model with twice the power. How is that confusing again?

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

My issue with Sony's marketing of the Pro is simple. You cannot commandeer an established term and alter its definition. If this were the first time the world had seen 4K (upscaled or native), call it whatever you want. But what 4K is has been established for some time and what the Pro does ain't that.

It's never really been a requirement to explicitly market "native" when throwing around terms though.

Last gens games were mostly called HD despite many technically being sub 720. For the majority, they'll just accept it as 4K.

 

[ViolentP]

It's never really been a requirement to explicitly market "native" when throwing around terms though.

Last gens games were mostly called HD despite many technically being sub 720. For the majority, they'll just accept it as 4K.

Agreed. But still inaccurate. We are teaching non-savvy consumers incorrectly. That's my only real gripe with their marketing.

 

[gtj1092]

Are people serious with wanting to know how every game is going to run. When in the history of console gaming has a platform holder been able to mandate how each game will run before or after launch. Yes I would say asking that question and claiming to be confused is concern trolling. How would Sony know how each game from 1000s of developers is going to run on the pro.

 

[Abdiel]

Not sure what your post proves? That second quote is from the Pro announce thread? Not this one? Even now, that second post holds true. Everyone acknowledges the great price. How many would buy it if it were more given what it lacks?

So again, I never concern trolled anything. Mu first post in here was asking someone in retail how they're selling it to customers.

Nice stalking though. I'm sure you thought you "had me" there.



Thanks for the reply. iPad analogy is a good one for the more casual gamer.

No problem. Sorry I missed the question the first time. I'm always going to want to be accountable to the statements I make on here.

The iPad thing helps make a clear line for most people that aren't familiar with the idea for consoles. More savvy folks are usually more well read already and are trying to see if we've been briefed on more details than have been leaked already, heh.

Is it safe to say customers aren't running out your store screaming after these discussions?

Have yet to see that reaction. Some people aren't interested, but there's plenty of people with a wait and see mentality. They want it to prove itself, which I think is totally reasonable. I said a few months ago that it's up to Sony to validate this to everyone. I think they've shown what they can how they can, and sources like digital foundry acknowledged what they've accomplished. That's significant.

I hope they'll give us a demo unit to hook up to one of the hdr 4k tv's to really let us knock people's socks off. Preferably with horizon footage, hah.

 

[Lionheart]

I think Sony could have improved the following things in their messaging:
- Show more games that visibly improve in 1080p Pro mode. This is just in hindsight, because so many people think it only makes a difference if you own a 4K tv. With twice the power, it should show much prettier games at 1080p. Show me!
- Make clear that all games that release after {date} have a Pro mode that actually improve on something.
- Have a bigger list of older titles that will receive a Pro patch. Give developers incentive to do so. I expected a list of dozens of titles to receive a patch. How many will actually receive one? Around 10?

 

[platocplx]

Whatever game you prefer, it still doesn't change my point. I don't get what your speculation about the game has to do with the point I'm making. Replace TLG or Mafia with whatever game you want. The benefits for someone with a 1080p TV aren't obvious to anyone because not all games will have those, and not all games will necessarily render above 1080p. So depending on the TV you have, some games will have benefits and some won't. I'm not moving any goalposts, that's what I've been arguing since the beginning. The benefits the console brings are too loosely defined because devs are given freedom to do what they want, making it impossible to tell which game will have what rendering settings.

My analogy with the 360 has nothing to do with it being a new platform, it has to do with making sure customers get to see the value they'll get out of a product before purchase. As someone buying TLG / Mafia / Whatever future game with a 1080 TV, I don't know that I'll get benefits at all from the machine. I'd LIKE to know, but I don't. That's what's unclear about the whole thing. It's really not that hard to understand.

There are plenty of customers that see the advantage. Its just for you seem like everything has to be all or nothing. How do you function when knowing not all games render at 1080p on the ps4 or xbox now?

They said devs who enable pro features that can allow for supersampling for games. Like seriously what else do you want man? lmao

The games they announced so far will have pro features, they just listed all the options that devs have to take advantage. Again you dont have to buy it, its okay to wait and see but plenty of us see the benefits just fine.

Are people serious with wanting to know how every game is going to run. When in the history of console gaming has a platform holder been able to mandate how each game will run before or after launch. Yes I would say asking that question and claiming to be confused is concern trolling. How would Sony know how each game from 1000s of developers is going to run on the pro.

seriously thats what people are grasping at now. They listed all the ways Devs can take advantage its up to Devs now.

 

[Obscuritas]

Is it safe to say customers aren't running out your store screaming after these discussions?

Only if they are told to see the list of patched games on US PS blog.

 

[ViolentP]

Are people serious with wanting to know how every game is going to run. When in the history of console gaming has a platform holder been able to mandate how each game will run before or after launch. Yes I would say asking that question and claiming to be confused is concern trolling. How would Sony know how each game from 1000s of developers is going to run on the pro.

This is a bit of a different scenario from anything historically, however. The Pro is being sold as a performance enhancing tool for an already established library. This hasn't been done before. And while I agree it's unreasonable to know how everything is going to run, seeing as performance is the primary selling point of this device, I don't think it's crazy that people want to know what to expect.

 

[mckmas8808]

That would be 2x supersampling AA then? That's not a big visual improvement and already leaves not much room for framerate improvements in GPU limited situations.

The tangible improvements across a breadth of games remains to be seen and I'd be more careful to sell it as an improvement for 1080p users.

Until then the Pro is only for 4K and probably VR.

This is literally and absolutely false. MOST people have already seen a clear difference in the look of games. Why would you think two times more GPU wouldn't a yield clear difference in visuals at 1080p?

 

[platocplx]

This is a bit of a different scenario from anything historically, however. The Pro is being sold as a performance enhancing tool for an already established library. This hasn't been done before. And while I agree it's unreasonable to know how everything is going to run, seeing as performance is the primary selling point of this device, I don't think it's crazy that people want to know what to expect.

What to expect:

Depending on how the developer chooses to use the increased processing power, games with PS4 Pro support are able to render higher or more consistent framerates, increased environmental and character model detail, improved overall visual quality, and other related visual enhancements.

Additionally, PS4 games that render below native 1080p (maximum quality for HD TVs) on the standard PS4 can be elevated to render at full native 1080p on an HDTV.

those are all that are at a developers disposal. It can vary based on what the dev is aiming for. Its up to the Devs they arent telling them what to choose. So asking per game basis is insane. lol

 

[Oni Jazar]

What I want to know is how many PS4 pro games will support supersampling for 1080p?

 

[ViolentP]

What to expect:

Depending on how the developer chooses to use the increased processing power, games with PS4 Pro support are able to render higher or more consistent framerates, increased environmental and character model detail, improved overall visual quality, and other related visual enhancements.

Additionally, PS4 games that render below native 1080p (maximum quality for HD TVs) on the standard PS4 can be elevated to render at full native 1080p on an HDTV.

those are all that are at a developers disposal. It can vary based on what the dev is aiming for. Its up to the Devs they arent telling them what to choose. So asking per game basis is insane. lol

Appreciate the info, though I've done my due diligence in researching the device before I made my decision. To the individual that I quoted that was surprised that people are clamoring for performance expectations, I simply wanted to mention that a device that is selling performance should have its metrics questioned.

 

[Give War A Chance]

The Slim is going to be the best seller of the two.

Not really going out on a ledge here.

It's $100 cheaper. Of course it will. Are you talking lifetime sales? That's more interesting talk.

 

[Vinc]

There are plenty of customers that see the advantage. Its just for you seem like everything has to be all or nothing. How do you function when knowing not all games render at 1080p on the ps4 or xbox now?

They said devs who enable pro features that can allow for supersampling for games. Like seriously what else do you want man? lmao

The games they announced so far will have pro features, they just listed all the options that devs have to take advantage. Again you dont have to buy it, its okay to wait and see but plenty of us see the benefits just fine.



seriously thats what people are grasping at now. They listed all the ways Devs can take advantage its up to Devs now.

First of all, no, there aren't plenty of customers who see the benefits because we don't know what those benefits are. That's what I'm arguing. It's a game by game basis, so we don't know.

When going from PS3 to PS4, I knew there would be an advantage in every game I bought. When buying the PS4 Pro, it's actually possible that I will never see any benefits, since I have a 1080p TV, if I don't buy the right, unknown games. That's what's unclear. I'm sure Digital Foundry will clear it up on a game by game basis, but it's still a tough proposition to upgrade blindly since we don't know if there will be benefits at all.

No, I'm not the only one in this situation. That's why the thread is made. You can call that grasping at straws and concern trolling all you want, but the fact remains.

If you can't understand my point of view here... well... "lmao". :/

 

[kaching]

HD consoles were a pretty clear generational leap though. Even if you were watching YouTube videos in 240/360P, you could pretty clearly see that Gears of War looked amazing compared to PS2/Xbox games. You didn't really even need a new monitor/TV to see that jump. The difference between PS4 and PS4Pro games is much harder to communicate across current media.

Come on, border, you've been here longer than I have. Gears wasn't a launch title for the 360 and wasn't even shown until the following E3, I believe. Don't you remember all the "xbox 1.5" complaints before the release of the 360? Launch period library relied on a lot of mostly just uprezzed PS2/Xbox titles and even the brand new games, like Perfect Dark, weren't as impressive visually as many hoped. Remember Wall Guy??? Clearly, plenty of "confusion" back then too.

To me that message from from CDP could easily be interpreted as Pro Patch = 4k.

Yes, that would appear to be their particular take on patching for the Pro. So what? Since when is there an expectation that every developer would patch their older games for newer hardware exactly the same way?

 

[platocplx]

First of all, no, there aren't plenty of customers who see the benefits because we don't know what those benefits are. That's what I'm arguing. It's a game by game basis, so we don't know.

When going from PS3 to PS4, I knew there would be an advantage in every game I bought. When buying the PS4 Pro, it's actually possible that I will never see any benefits, since I have a 1080p TV, if I don't buy the right, unknown games. That's what's unclear. I'm sure Digital Foundry will clear it up on a game by game basis, but it's still a tough proposition to upgrade blindly since we don't know if there will be benefits at all.

No, I'm not the only one in this situation. That's why the thread is made. You can call that grasping at straws and concern trolling all you want, but the fact remains.

If you can't understand my point of view here... well... "lmao". :/

you are comparing Two DIFFERENT platforms again. Its not a different generation dude. it is concern trolling at this point especially when you keep making generational arguments when its clearly an extension of the existing platform.

Sony already said its 2X the peformance of the OG etc. like you are nitpicking on a game by game basis now which is insane at this point when its clear if a game takes advantage it can use the whole stable of options sony mentioned based on the developers wants for the game.

 

[cakely]

How do you market a product you have to see to believe without actually being able to see without the correct TV?

I don't think it's hard to understand it's just something you have to see on a 4K/HDR TV.

Besides the target is aimed at the hardcore of hardcore so I don't expect Sony is expecting the same sales numbers they had with the OG.

The Slim is going to be the best seller of the two.

It would be easier to market if it was called the PS5, but it isn't therefore the challenge.

Maybe eventually. Looking at Amazon rankings the PlayStation 4 slim has had a much more muted launch than the PlayStation 4 Pro.

For September:

#3: Sony PlayStation 4 Pro - 1TB
#30: Sony PlayStation 4 500GB Bundle with Call of Duty Black Ops III - Black
#60: PlayStation 4 Slim 500GB Console - Uncharted 4 Bundle

So far the challenge isn't selling the Pro at all ... people are snapping up the old model PS4 at $300 over the slim.

 

[Sad Affleck]

That his criticism of the E3 press conference was bizarre and unsupported, and that if the plan is to live stream events so you can make jokes over them you probably shouldn't complain when you were talking over the answers you think they didn't give.

I saw nothing that was bizarre and certainly not unsupported. I also doubt that Jeff's criticism was based on the few bits of information he picked up during the live stream.

 

[Vinc]

you are comparing Two DIFFERENT platforms again. Its not a different generation dude. it is concern trolling at this point especially when you keep making generational arguments when its clearly an extension of the existing platform.

Sony already said its 2X the peformance of the OG etc. like you are nitpicking on a game by game basis now which is insane at this point when its clear if a game takes advantage it can use the whole stable of options sony mentioned based on the developers wants for the game.

Where in the world in my posts do you see me arguing that it's a generational leap? What are you talking about?

I'm saying the benefits of upgrading to PS4 were clear from PS3, because you brought up the PS4. I'm saying the upgrade from PS4 to PS4 Pro is nowhere near as clear as that. The point I'm trying to make is that if Sony wants people to not be confused about the console, they should probably mandate that all games on all TVs should at least offer some benefits on the Pro. It's not the case currently. Meaning I could buy a PS4 Pro and never buy a game that will let me even notice I have one if I don't upgrade to 4K. That's less clear a message than upgrading between generations. That's what this thread is about.

Again, for emphasis, I'm not saying the PS4 Pro should offer the same leap in quality as PS3 to 4. I'm saying it should GUARANTEE a leap in quality that doesn't depend on your TV. They're currently advertising as "not only for people who have 4K TVs", but are also saying "but it depends on the game, some games will only benefit 4K TV owners". Sure, that's clear messaging, but as a customer I don't even know if I'll benefit from buying one until future games come out.

You keep telling me stuff that's completely unrelated to the points I'm making. I know I don't have to buy one, that's not the point. I know it's not a new gen, that's not the point. Did you forget what thread we're in?

You're arguing that the benefits of the Pro should be clear to me and that I'm concern trolling, and I'm pointing to evidence as to why it's not clear. If you can absolutely tell me with certainty that all future games on a 1080p TV will look or perform better on the Pro, then that's perfect. Great messaging. That works for me. However, Sony isn't at all doing that.

Hopefully you understand at this point, because I can't phrase this differently.

 

[platocplx]

Where in the world in my posts do you see me arguing that it's a generational leap? What are you talking about?

I'm saying the benefits of upgrading to PS4 were clear from PS3, because you brought up the PS4. I'm saying the upgrade from PS4 to PS4 Pro is nowhere near as clear as that. The point I'm trying to make is that if Sony wants people to not be confused about the console, they should probably mandate that all games on all TVs should at least offer some benefits on the Pro. It's not the case currently. Meaning I could buy a PS4 Pro and never buy a game that will let me even notice I have one if I don't upgrade to 4K. That's less clear a message than upgrading between generations. That's what this thread is about.

Again, for emphasis, I'm not saying the PS4 Pro should offer the same leap in quality as PS3 to 4. I'm saying it should GUARANTEE a leap in quality that doesn't depend on your TV. They're currently advertising as "not only for people who have 4K TVs", but are also saying "but it depends on the game, some games will only benefit 4K TV owners". Sure, that's clear messaging, but as a customer I don't even know if I'll benefit from buying one until future games come out.

You keep telling me stuff that's completely unrelated to the points I'm making. I know I don't have to buy one, that's not the point. I know it's not a new gen, that's not the point. Did you forget what thread we're in?

You're arguing that the benefits of the Pro should be clear to me and that I'm concern trolling, and I'm pointing to evidence as to why it's not clear. If you can absolutely tell me with certainty that all future games on a 1080p TV will look or perform better on the Pro, then that's perfect. Great messaging. That works for me. However, Sony isn't at all doing that.

Hopefully you understand at this point, because I can't phrase this differently.

It is Guaranteeing a Jump as long as developers take advantage. The Hardware is better than the old one. Its up to Developers. They will look better if the developer chooses to do so. They showed the example with Shadow of mordor for super sampling and I also believe they did the same for For Honor as well. Again the hardware guarantees it will be better as long as devs do their thing. You want them to tell you every game will perform better period and that is setting them up for you to rage about it when its on the devs.

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

Maybe you are confused?

No.

 

[b0bbyJ03]

One thing i would love to know is what would happen if I connect this to a 1440p monitor. I already preordered the Pro but I dont have a 4K TV yet. Im wondering if i could get a 1440p output out of this thing so I could at least benefit from the higher res.

 

[Vinc]

It is Guaranteeing a Jump as long as developers take advantage. The Hardware is better than the old one. Its up to Developers. They will look better if the developer chooses to do so. They showed the example with Shadow of mordor for super sampling and I also believe they did the same for For Honor as well. Again the hardware guarantees it will be better as long as devs do their thing. You want them to tell you every game will perform better period and that is setting them up for you to rage about it when its on the devs.

That is the very definition of "not guaranteed".

And I'm not raging about it at all, I'm arguing that the benefits aren't clear to customers BECAUSE it's "up to the devs". If I upgrade a PC, I know there will be benefits in all games I'm not running at max settings. On PS4 Pro, it's "up to the devs to take advantage". Clear as mud.

Also, devs can decide to support 4K and not 1080. That's another reason why the idea of upgrading is more complicated than it used to be. To better communicate the PS4 Pro advantage, Sony should pull a Microsoft early 360 era (mandatory 720p, achievements, etc, as discussed earlier) and mandate HDR support, 4K "mode" support, and 1080p "mode" support. That way you can tell all of your customers "this is a PS4 that will make all future games look better no matter what you own", rather than "this is a PS4 that will probably make most games look better for you, mostly, depending on your TV".

 

[platocplx]

That is the very definition of "not guaranteed".

And I'm not raging about it at all, I'm arguing that the benefits aren't clear to customers BECAUSE it's "up to the devs". If I upgrade a PC, I know there will be benefits in all games I'm not running at max settings. On PS4 Pro, it's "up to the devs to take advantage". Clear as mud.

Also, devs can decide to support 4K and not 1080. That's another reason why the idea of upgrading is more complicated than it used to be. To better communicate the PS4 Pro advantage, Sony should pull a Microsoft early 360 era (mandatory 720p, achievements, etc, as discussed earlier) and mandate HDR support, 4K "mode" support, and 1080p "mode" support. That way you can tell all of your customers "this is a PS4 that will make all future games look better no matter what you own", rather than "this is a PS4 that will probably make most games look better for you, mostly, depending on your TV".

thats not true, you are like devil advocating this to the point of infinity. Stop comparing this to other console launches again these analogies do not work. Its an extension of the PS4 as such benefits are up to developers just like new iphones mid gen. Any change in hardware the developers have to make a change to enable new features its not rocket science. The hardware is better. It will give you a better advantage. This message you want will never come because its not a console generation leap.

 

[Nico_D]

Sony unmarketed the PSVR for me with the PS Pro. Why would I buy the VR if I can expect a new and improved model soon? Or maybe a bundle with Pro? Or with Pro and camera and the damn llightsticks? Or maybe with PS5?

You shouldn't mess with your customers.

 

[Vinc]

thats not true, you are like devil advocating this to the point of infinity. Stop comparing this to other console launches again these analogies do not work. Its an extension of the PS4 as such benefits are up to developers just like new iphones mid gen. Any change in hardware the developers have to make a change to enable new features its not rocket science. The hardware is better. It will give you a better advantage. This message you want will never come because its not a console generation leap.

Is it really not true? Do you have a source on that? Every game needs to have improvements in 1080p? If that's the case it's news to me, and it's definitely a better value proposition. I watched the conference and read the entire FAQ, and somehow this fact has gone way over my head... so where is it stated?

Everything else you said I already responded to, I'm not comparing it to a new generation of consoles at all. I'm saying one thing and one thing only: It's not a guarantee that I'll see benefits without upgrading my TV, making it unclear if I should buy it or not.

And the message COULD very much come and has nothing to do with generation leaps. Sony COULD tell devs that every game has to look or run better on any TV, 1080 or more, for a game to be released on the Pro.

 

[Shin-chan]

I feel like some people are being deliberately obtuse about the Pro at this point. It's a more powerful PS4 for $100 more than the next most powerful console on the market. It's not a lot to ask for, all things considered.

The specifics of how that power will be used are up in the air, but we've seen several examples already, and it would actually be ridiculous for Sony to mandate that it's used in specific ways, leaving developers no autonomy or room to maneuver.

The product itself is simple as fuck though. You know that iPad Pro? How it's a more premium version of the iPad? Well this is a PS4 Pro. It's a more powerful, premium version of the PS4. And the price hike is far more reasonable than that example.

 

[Callibretto]

Is it really not true? Do you have a source on that? Every game needs to have improvements in 1080p? If that's the case it's news to me, and it's definitely a better value proposition. I watched the conference and read the entire FAQ, and somehow this fact has gone way over my head... so where is it stated?

Everything else you said I already responded to, I'm not comparing it to a new generation of consoles at all. I'm saying one thing and one thing only: It's not a guarantee that I'll see benefits without upgrading my TV, making it unclear if I should buy it or not.

And the message COULD very much come and has nothing to do with generation leaps. Sony COULD tell devs that every game has to look or run better on any TV, 1080 or more, for a game to be released on the Pro.

4k image downsampled to 1080p counts as "improvement in 1080p"

The easiest and quickest way for dev to make pro mode is to simply use the checkered rendering to output a 4k image. That 4k image would look better than base ps4 no matter what tv you use.