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[Par Score]

Ah, an out-of-context snippet in the OP. My favorite. I honestly don't know much about Rimworld, but did he promise realistic relationships? Was the relationship system a key facet of the game? There is lot of outrage in this thread towards a person seemingly based on a single post. That's always a good sign to step back and take a deep breath.

And before I get some misguided post from someone who is ready to step in and do battle with the evil of the world, I can understand disappointment and wanting to change a game because of its views and understanding of diversity. I have trouble understanding knee-jerk outrage to anything that seems to stray from the majority GAF views.

Edit: Especially on a game still in early-access.

Bi-erasure is a serious issue that has caused genuine harm to millions of people for a long time.

Enshrining that erasure in the relationship code of your early access game is one thing, a forgiveable thing, but doubling down with some bullshit "research" and "personal experience" when called out on it takes us into darker territory.

And yes, the relationship system is a core part of the game, managing your colonist's moods is a key part of ensuring your long term survival and relationships play a big part of this.

Like the game. Like the dev. Can't fault him for basing his npc behaviour off personal experience, especially since he seems open to discussion and change.

You "can't fault him" for his game denying the existence of Bi men, and then trying to justify that? No fault there from your perspective?

 

[Razmos]

"All bisexual men turn out gay, I'm my expert opinion"
What a fucking idiot

 

[karobit]

Since everyone else has the bi-erasure covered, I just want to reiterate the other point from the RPS story: the men's advances being refused negatively affects their mood but the constant advances on women by men doesn't affect theirs.

If this is supposed to resemble life in any meaningful way, I don't know how that one happens without some massive empathetic blinders on or a humongous sense of entitlement.

 

[Bumbletron]

"Every bi man I've ever know has ultimately ended up identifying as gay"

ummmmmmmmm

Oh shit, that's news to me. And I already missed the deadline for coming out day this year! Damn.

 

[itxaka]

Looking at the article and the dev response posted on page 1, doesnt this seem like a case of a misunderstanding and mob going mobbing?

After reading the dev full letter you can see that is temporary, is an aproximation at what he has observed and he doesn't claim that its fact, only based on what he has seen, so he has built it like that and due to change in the future (I mean, its an alpha ffs)

Arent people just jumping to throats here?

 

[hodgy100]

Looking at the article and the dev response posted on page 1, doesnt this seem like a case of a misunderstanding and mob going mobbing?

After reading the dev full letter you can see that is temporary, is an aproximation at what he has observed and he doesn't claim that its fact, only based on what he has seen, so he has built it like that and due to change in the future (I mean, its an alpha ffs)

Aren't people just jumping to throats here?

the problem was that he made a conscious decision to put these rules in place. if it was truly a quick & easy system then it would be completely unbiased against sex, age , ability etc. or a super simple hetero only.

The problem is that he has knowingly introduced nuance into the system that reflects his own views. So I think he looses the excuse that "it was just thrown together"

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

lol he wouldn't do the RPS interview unless he had full editorial control but he's done multiple breitbart interviews

i'm done

Well, I guess there goes any benefit of doubt I had for the guy.

Shame, because apparently this game is really good.

Anyways, the romance system is based on his extremely limited understanding of sexuality. As for the "mood" system, I don't think I would chalk that up to him being sexist, but simply, once again, designing a system from his perspective, again. He's a guy, and he most likely hangs around other guys and they all bitch about how they got rejected and stuff.

Now, considering his political leanings/social leanings, this could very much be red pill shit that is coded behind the game, or he could just be an idiot and be like "why would women feel bad about being asked out??" type of deal. Either way, it's sexist, but there is a difference between thinking women are just tools for men and their sexual needs, and just being ignorant and not considering the PoV from someone else, which happens a lot and part of the reason red pill exists because women having agency scares a lot of nerds who have to compete with people who actually try and make an effort to get relationships.

But honestly now that I wrote it out and know his rather "extreme" leanings, maybe I'm over thinking it and he's just a sexist who coded sexist things in his game.

 

[DouglasteR]

Omfg ppl, just play the game.

It´s incredible good.

 

[Conkerkid11]

Omfg ppl, just play the game.

It´s incredible good.

That's not what any of this is about.

 

[SwissLion]

Looking at the article and the dev response posted on page 1, doesnt this seem like a case of a misunderstanding and mob going mobbing?

After reading the dev full letter you can see that is temporary, is an aproximation at what he has observed and he doesn't claim that its fact, only based on what he has seen, so he has built it like that and due to change in the future (I mean, its an alpha ffs)

Arent people just jumping to throats here?

There's nothing specific in any of his comments about what is or isn't temporary. Are the erased sexual identities temporary? Are the weird regressive gender roles temporary? Is the empathy-barren treatment of sexual advances temporary?

It's early access! It's buggy! These aren't detailed or specific enough to be explanations. They're excuses, now that he's getting attention for his clearly backward view of basically all of human sexuality. He's being fairly criticised and flailing in response, and if that seems unfair to you, know that people tend not to give GamerGaters the benefit of the doubt anymore.

Also, if one article and a three page GAF thread is what counts as mobbing nowadays you should probably have a look at the shit RPS and the author are getting from his buddies round about now.

 

[Conkerkid11]

Ah, an out-of-context snippet in the OP. My favorite. I honestly don't know much about Rimworld, but did he promise realistic relationships? Was the relationship system a key facet of the game? There is lot of outrage in this thread towards a person seemingly based on a single post. That's always a good sign to step back and take a deep breath.

And before I get some misguided post from someone who is ready to step in and do battle with the evil of the world, I can understand disappointment and wanting to change a game because of its views and understanding of diversity. I have trouble understanding knee-jerk outrage to anything that seems to stray from the majority GAF views.

Edit: Especially on a game still in early-access.

The reactions are more specifically about the developer's initial response, in which he says that the game is the way it is because he believes there are so few real life bisexual men, that they don't need to exist in the game, whereas every woman in real life is bisexual, so every woman in the game is bisexual.

We're reacting to dumb and outdated world views of an indie dev of a popular indie game that recently came out, which influenced the game's mechanics.

Dunno wtf your post is even a reaction to.

 

[itxaka]

the problem was that he made a conscious decision to put these rules in place. if it was truly a quick & easy system then it would be completely unbiased against sex, age , ability etc. or a super simple hetero only.

The problem is that he has knowingly introduced nuance into the system that reflects his own views. So I think he looses the excuse that "it was just thrown together"

But you mold things from your own visions. When I build software, I do it always from my point of view, which may as well be biased. It is only when other coders come in, or when the software is maturing that you can rethink or modify that.

I think that what he says on that long read about the systems in place, its pretty fair. He seems to know that the system is biased and that its molded by his own observations and that its not fact and may change in the future. So it looks like its ignorant, yes, but not done on malice. We are all ignorant somehow and probably cant avoid plastering that when we build things, especially something like a game or a book.

disclaimer: English is not my first language so I may not be reading into that properly. Dont attribute my words to malice or justification

It's early access! It's buggy! These aren't detailed or specific enough to be explanations. They're excuses, now that he's getting attention for his clearly backward view of basically all of human sexuality. He's being fairly criticised and flailing in response, and if that seems unfair to you, know that people tend not to give GamerGaters the benefit of the doubt anymore.

Im talking about this quote which seems to explain what I mean about the sytems being not real but just based on his own biased view:

Nor am I an expert in all this; the game simply attempts a very rough approximation of some patterns from real life. In truth I never did a full analysis of every possible situation this code could run into. I’m sure various numbers are wrong. But, it’s functional and gets the job done.

Also, if one article and a three page GAF thread is what counts as mobbing nowadays you should probably have a look at the shit RPS and the author are getting from his buddies round about now.

Oh, I would expect that from GG. Anything that can push their agenda, they will rally behind and bring it to threats, insults and what not. Im talking more about the posted letter on page 1 that expands beyond the article and that people seem to be ignoring it and just jumping to conclusions i this thread.

 

[SwissLion]

I'm talking about this quote which seems to explain what I mean about the sytems being not real but just based on his own biased view:

Nor am I an expert in all this; the game simply attempts a very rough approximation of some patterns from real life. In truth I never did a full analysis of every possible situation this code could run into. I'm sure various numbers are wrong. But, it's functional and gets the job done.

Exactly, and it's likely that if this hadn't been brought up in an article, that biased view would never have been challenged.

And judging by his response so far, in the exact post you're talking about, calling the article a dishonest hitpiece, and getting incredibly defensive, his overall attitude is unlikely to change any time soon. People will continue to criticise him, and base their purchasing decisions off his responses.

And your English is totally excellent!

 

[aeolist]

But you mold things from your own visions. When I build software, I do it always from my point of view, which may as well be biased.

that is literally the only point the article on RPS is trying to make. it actually goes out of its way to avoid mentioning sylvester by name and is simply using the relationship system in his game as a concrete example.

he then barged into the comments section with a massive chip on his shoulder and proceeded to attack a relatively benign and entirely factual piece of writing as anger-mongering and shoddy journalism.

this guy is an asshole, full stop. he has proved it with his own actions.

 

[hodgy100]

But you mold things from your own visions. When I build software, I do it always from my point of view, which may as well be biased. It is only when other coders come in, or when the software is maturing that you can rethink or modify that.

I think that what he says on that long read about the systems in place, its pretty fair. He seems to know that the system is biased and that its molded by his own observations and that its not fact and may change in the future. So it looks like its ignorant, yes, but not done on malice. We are all ignorant somehow and probably cant avoid plastering that when we build things, especially something like a game or a book.

disclaimer: English is not my first language so I may not be reading into that properly. Dont attribute my words to malice or justification



Oh, I would expect that from GG. Anything that can push their agenda, they will rally behind and bring it to threats, insults and what not. Im talking more about the posted letter on page 1 that expands beyond the article and that people seem to be ignoring it and just jumping to conclusions i this thread.

I think if he jsut came out and said hes basing the system of his personal experiences acknowledge that that isn't how the real world works, but he wants to make this system the way he wants to to see how it would work then there is no reason to question these views like we are.

Instead hes tried to back it up with studies and use his personal experience in an attempt to say "but this is how real life works" That's the part that is being critiqued here.

Also my personal politics dont make it into the games I program at-all. I get given a design and i provide an implementation. that design may have political leanings yes, but they are often from a point of view of what will make fun gameplay rather than real life experience.

Oh and I know you arent being malicious, we are just discussing after all.

 

[Zafir]

But you mold things from your own visions. When I build software, I do it always from my point of view, which may as well be biased. It is only when other coders come in, or when the software is maturing that you can rethink or modify that.

I think that what he says on that long read about the systems in place, its pretty fair. He seems to know that the system is biased and that its molded by his own observations and that its not fact and may change in the future. So it looks like its ignorant, yes, but not done on malice. We are all ignorant somehow and probably cant avoid plastering that when we build things, especially something like a game or a book.

disclaimer: English is not my first language so I may not be reading into that properly. Dont attribute my words to malice or justification




Im talking about this quote which seems to explain what I mean about the sytems being not real but just based on his own biased view:

Nor am I an expert in all this; the game simply attempts a very rough approximation of some patterns from real life. In truth I never did a full analysis of every possible situation this code could run into. I’m sure various numbers are wrong. But, it’s functional and gets the job done.





Oh, I would expect that from GG. Anything that can push their agenda, they will rally behind and bring it to threats, insults and what not. Im talking more about the posted letter on page 1 that expands beyond the article and that people seem to be ignoring it and just jumping to conclusions i this thread.

The problem is though. He says he never spent much time on these rules in place but then in a comment later he then proceeds to "defend" this idea that all women are a little bit bi-curious through some research piece.

He either didn't spend much on this code, or he did research and knew what he was getting into when writing it. He can't have his cake and eat it too. The only way he could is if he wrote it and then found studies to confirm but was then deluded by confirmation bias, which frankly is still questionable.

 

[cubicle47b]

I can't blame him for being wary of this editorial or not wanting his comments edited so that they're taken out of context (as they are in the OP - the part about the actual research he did was left out).

 

[Nudull]

Finally, a videogame where you experience life through the eyes of a shallow, homophobic Nice Guy! The narrative/interactive experience that no one asked for!

 

[veloxStrix]

Ah, I'm beginning to understand. Let me rephrase my last post -

I agree. Burn it down.

Bi-erasure is a serious issue that has caused genuine harm to millions of people for a long time.

Enshrining that erasure in the relationship code of your early access game is one thing, a forgiveable thing, but doubling down with some bullshit "research" and "personal experience" when called out on it takes us into darker territory.

And yes, the relationship system is a core part of the game, managing your colonist's moods is a key part of ensuring your long term survival and relationships play a big part of this.

My sarcasm doesn't extend to this post though. I can understand that. Having your entire sexuality coded out of a game that includes everyone else is ridiculous. Especially when it is inclusive of female bisexuality? Unless I'm wrong on that last part. Going through the guys Reddit AMA and interviews, it seems like he's not particularly apologetic (or the type to be) about the whole thing so I doubt it's getting changed officially. :/

 

[Xater]

I can't blame him for being wary of this editorial or not wanting his comments edited so that they're taken out of context (as they are in the OP - the part about the actual research he did was left out).

His "research" indicates that more women seem to identify as bi than men. But fuck that. All those men are actually just gay, because personal experience.

 

[Dryk]

that is literally the only point the article on RPS is trying to make. it actually goes out of its way to avoid mentioning sylvester by name and is simply using the relationship system in his game as a concrete example.

he then barged into the comments section with a massive chip on his shoulder and proceeded to attack a relatively benign and entirely factual piece of writing as anger-mongering and shoddy journalism.

this guy is an asshole, full stop. he has proved it with his own actions.

It would have been so easy for him to talk about how he never really looked about it that way but can see how it may come of as subconciously sexist. So easy. People probably would have believed him and let him go on his merry way.

 

[cubicle47b]

His "research" indicates that more women seem to identify as bi than men. But fuck that. All those men are actually just gay, because personal experience.

Yeah, his decision was very strange based on the research he did, but nothing I'm reading is malicious, just ignorant.

 

[itxaka]

Exactly, and it's likely that if this hadn't been brought up in an article, that biased view would never have been challenged.

And judging by his response so far, in the exact post you're talking about, calling the article a dishonest hitpiece, and getting incredibly defensive, his overall attitude is unlikely to change any time soon. People will continue to criticise him, and base their purchasing decisions off his responses.

And your English is totally excellent!

that is literally the only point the article on RPS is trying to make. it actually goes out of its way to avoid mentioning sylvester by name and is simply using the relationship system in his game as a concrete example.

he then barged into the comments section with a massive chip on his shoulder and proceeded to attack a relatively benign and entirely factual piece of writing as anger-mongering and shoddy journalism.

this guy is an asshole, full stop. he has proved it with his own actions.

I think if he jsut came out and said hes basing the system of his personal experiences acknowledge that that isn't how the real world works, but he wants to make this system the way he wants to to see how it would work then there is no reason to question these views like we are.

Instead hes tried to back it up with studies and use his personal experience in an attempt to say "but this is how real life works" That's the part that is being critiqued here.

Also my personal politics dont make it into the games I program at-all. I get given a design and i provide an implementation. that design may have political leanings yes, but they are often from a point of view of what will make fun gameplay rather than real life experience.

Oh and I know you arent being malicious, we are just discussing after all.

The problem is though. He says he never spent much time on these rules in place but then in a comment later he then proceeds to "defend" this idea that all women are a little bit bi-curious through some research piece.

He either didn't spend much on this code, or he did research and knew what he was getting into when writing it. He can't have his cake and eat it too. The only way he could is if he wrote it and then found studies to confirm but was then deluded by confirmation bias, which frankly is still questionable.

Good points all around.

Seems that I missed this:

Instead hes tried to back it up with studies and use his personal experience in an attempt to say "but this is how real life works" That's the part that is being critiqued here.

Which indeed is cause for concern. Ignorance and blind bias can only cover so far, doubling down on your ignorance as fact and pushing it like its truth crosses into malice. Thanks everybody involved for your opinions and patience

 

[Bert]

Oh good, a sexuality/social issues thread of GAF, these always go down well.

Look, all game AI is a horrible approximation of real AI which is a horrible approximation of actual intelligence. Pro tip, adding salt to fries just makes me not buy fries, it doesn't make me want more drink. Didn't stop the guy who wrote that code ending up founding DeepMind and pushing real AI forwards.

The guy is a game developer, not a gender studies doctorate candidate, give him a break. Just like Notch being a dick doesn't change how fun Minecraft is, some guy with his own theories on sexuality doesn't ruin your fun.

...

And anecdotally I'd agree with his estimation of number of bi men vs women, but I have no idea if there's even research out there on this or what it says. My brother is "bi" but only goes with guys and I don't know a woman who hasn't experimented at some point. I can see how someone with just life experience and not doing the research might come to similar assumptions.

But like the trans threads, please remember that this is not a solved problem with a right and a wrong answer. We know so little about sexual attraction on general.

 

[veloxStrix]

Pro tip, adding salt to fries just makes me not buy fries, it doesn't make me want more drink.

I don't want to derail the thread, but what does this even mean?

 

[DoubleYou]

Hopefully he learns from this. Been enjoying his game a lot.

 

[SerTapTap]

"Every bi man I've ever know has ultimately ended up identifying as gay"

Christ. IMO Death of the Artist is really important and there's some good stuff from fairly to very shitty people, but I'm not sure I can play this crap. Most people's shitty opinions are at least kept out of the code.

 

[Lime]

Oh good, a sexuality/social issues thread of GAF, these always go down well.

Look, all game AI is a horrible approximation of real AI which is a horrible approximation of actual intelligence. Pro tip, adding salt to fries just makes me not buy fries, it doesn't make me want more drink. Didn't stop the guy who wrote that code ending up founding DeepMind and pushing real AI forwards.

The guy is a game developer, not a gender studies doctorate candidate, give him a break. Just like Notch being a dick doesn't change how fun Minecraft is, some guy with his own theories on sexuality doesn't ruin your fun. .

The dude encoded his ideological views of sexuality and gender into the fabric of the game itself so that players are confined to only do the actions conforming to his worldview of sexuality.

 

[nomohair]

What in the fuck am I reading???


...reads more..

lol, me with this thread.

 

[Croatoan]

lol, me with this thread.

Same.

 

[ponpo]

The developer is a Gamergator / bigot / alt-right / racist / etc.

Amazing analysis by the writer.

What is covered by the etc? Didn't get racist from the OP so wondering what else I didn't pick up on.

 

[FyreWulff]

yeah it's definitely a persistent thread amongst altrighters that bi men are just "gay men in denial". what a moran

 

[Famassu]

Thats the way he programmed the game, it doesn't have to perfectly mirror the real world. Even though I'd love to see the line of code that deals with asian women from toronto who expect their boyfriend to pay for everything when they go out with her friends.

Devs can program AI how they want, we can criticize them for what seems like somewhat sexist & limited depictions of sexuality.

Oh good, a sexuality/social issues thread of GAF, these always go down well.

Look, all game AI is a horrible approximation of real AI which is a horrible approximation of actual intelligence. Pro tip, adding salt to fries just makes me not buy fries, it doesn't make me want more drink. Didn't stop the guy who wrote that code ending up founding DeepMind and pushing real AI forwards.

The guy is a game developer, not a gender studies doctorate candidate, give him a break. Just like Notch being a dick doesn't change how fun Minecraft is, some guy with his own theories on sexuality doesn't ruin your fun.

...

And anecdotally I'd agree with his estimation of number of bi men vs women, but I have no idea if there's even research out there on this or what it says. My brother is "bi" but only goes with guys and I don't know a woman who hasn't experimented at some point. I can see how someone with just life experience and not doing the research might come to similar assumptions.

But like the trans threads, please remember that this is not a solved problem with a right and a wrong answer. We know so little about sexual attraction on general.

Lol, anecdotally. Experimentation != bi-sexuality. There's far more antagonism against bisexual men than there are against women having it both ways or just exploring their sexuality (even if they decide that they are, in fact, straight after some experimentation), so most bisexual men probably do not advertise the fact (no matter if they are with men or women) and fewer men experiment with their sexuality even if they maybe have a moment when they might.

And sure, there are some men who are afraid to come out as gay so they play the bi-card. Still, that says absolutely nothing about male bisexuality or how common it is.

EDIT: Also, as limited as AI can still be, you're seemingly ignoring the fact that it wouldn't really have required all that much to include bisexual men and straight women since he already has straight AI & bisexual AI, so it's not like it's some impossible task that goes beyond what can be done with modern game AI.

 

[LurkerPrime]

I just want to say, thanks the Technomancer for creating this thread. You're good at OPs!


I was ready to finish that article thinking, "fascinating, the decisions that can be made while developing a game. I sure hope he improves it." but then I saw that editor's note and Tynan's comments in the article. And man, Tynan's post is a really disappointing stand against freedom of the press and games criticism in general, not to mention kind of disturbing with how paranoid it is. Also, for some reason Tynan always referring to the author, Claudia Lo, impersonally (only once mentioning her first name, never the last) and not once mentioning RPS proper is setting off an alarm in my head; on top of all the accusatory words he also used. I will always remain baffled that Tynan calls the article "[an] anger-farming hit piece" while later admitting that "[the system] is very rough." Like, c'mon.


The thing that jumps out at me from the article is how the "no bisexual men" thing is a bizarre stand for the dev to take--it doesn't even make sense in terms of gameplay.

To explain: in Rimworld, mood is the key ingredient to a successful colony and is changed by many things, including relationships. Low mood is one of the big things to try and avoid because it can lead to pawns behaving erratically, or even going berserk and attacking anything nearby; while conversely, relationships are worth cultivating because of the great mood boosts they give. Pawns naturally float together or apart and it can raise some cool gameplay ramifications, which is one of the reasons why Rimworld is (was?) such a fun game.

But, the rejection thing mentioned in the article is an actual gameplay problem, because it totally does annihilate male pawns' mood (and would do the same to female pawns if they had anywhere near the same frequency of attempts). To make matters worse, gay pawns already have next to no chance of meeting someone; they're quite rare, and colonies don't often go beyond 12 pawns as I understand it. Even if the storyteller AI is fudging things in the background it's still a bad system.

 

[webrunner]

Death of the author is fine but it doesn't invalidate critiques of bigoted bullshit that are actually in the work.

 

[UncleSporky]

Finally, a videogame where you experience life through the eyes of a shallow, homophobic Nice Guy! The narrative/interactive experience that no one asked for!

If he was truly homophobic I don't think he would've made a game that includes gay/bi relationships at all, treated so casually and normally, without fanfare. I think they even occur much more often in the game than in real life. I think of some of the homophobic people I've known and they never would've condoned a game that allowed for that sort of thing.

The dude encoded his ideological views of sexuality and gender into the fabric of the game itself so that players are confined to only do the actions conforming to his worldview of sexuality.

This is really reaching. "Players are confined to only do the actions conforming to his worldview of sexuality?" What the heck? What is "do the actions?" The game isn't really about sexuality. It's about surviving on an alien landscape. You order your straight/gay/bi characters to go salvage, go farm, go harvest and cook and install light fixtures. These actions aren't about conforming to any specific worldview.

Aren't there thousands of games with nothing but heterosexual content in them? Are you confined in those games to "do the actions" as well? Mario has to rescue the princess, reinforcing the heterosexual worldview of the developers?

 

[Suite Pee]

Man. I really like this game. Even if dude changes the mechanics and includes a mood penalty for having to rebuff someone, I'm soured by his personal politics.

Talented guy behind a good game, so I hope he learns from this.

 

[Aaron D.]

The Dev:


To me this sounds reasonable. Strange yes, but it sounds like actually a case of ignorance and slight bias without the maliciousness that we tend to see when people claim someone is just "ignorant". He acknowledges that Bi men exist but for some reason chose to ignore them in his game. He has some gender rules that come from personal life experience that don't reflect the most progressive views yes. But I just think he seems to be so finely straddling the line between being progressive and falling into the folds of the Alt-right internet that we should all take it easy on him and convince him to join the good team. He's definitely someone who can be gently educated. I know i may I sound like one of those people, but really in this case, he semi tried to be inclusive, and it sounds like he was already paranoid about being rejected and attacked by "SJW's". He's already defensive, I don't think harsh criticism will help anyone.

I''m not saying he's without fault. I'm not trying to trivialize the issue. I just want to approach with caution. And I get it, I'm black and gay, I really get the frustration that people feel, and the desire to ridicule, but for once, at least based on the quote above, there's not really any malicious intent. He really did try. The framing of the article seems to kind of justify his initial fears, and seeing some responses here just further confirms his paranoia of a "lynch mob". I just don't want to radicalize a dev :/

This is a really thoughtful post and I appreciate you taking the time to lay this out.

It's interesting what happens when we shift away from reactionary conclusions that throw up walls and shut down conversation. But instead look for strands of possibility. Those opportunities to open dialog and create bridges instead of reflexively burning them down.

Maybe it's just this stressful and contentious election season in The States, but I've seen too much close-minded Us vs Them tribalism on display. Divisions being irresponsibly fueled by the media, who don't give one damn about the consequences beyond their own ratings, btw. It's maddening to watch.

There's a place for open discussion. For learning & understanding. That doesn't mean there aren't lost causes out there too entrenched in ideologies to dig themselves out. But on the other hand, neither does that mean that there isn't a place for learning opportunities cultivated through non-aggressive, open conversation.

Reading through the dev's comments cited here lead me to believe that this is clearly a case of the latter.

 

[Annubis]

This is a really thoughtful post and I appreciate you taking the time to lay this out.

It's interesting what happens when we shift away from reactionary conclusions that throw up walls and shut down conversation. But instead look for strands of possibility. Those opportunities to open dialog and create bridges instead of reflexively burning them.

Maybe it's just this stressful and contentious election season in The States, but I've seen too much close-minded Us vs Them tribalism on display. Divisions being irresponsibly fueled by the media, who don't give one damn about the consequences beyond their own ratings, btw. It's maddening to watch.

There's a place for open discussion. For learning & understanding. That doesn't mean there aren't lost causes out there too entrenched in ideologies to dig themselves out. But on the other hand, neither does that mean that there isn't a place for learning opportunities cultivated through non-aggressive, open conversation.

Reading through the dev's comments cited here lead me to believe that this is clearly a case of the latter.

Yeah. I feel bad for the dev. It seems obvious this is something he was scared of.

I don't think any of this will end up being better if everyone simply reacts offensively to this and calls forth the usual witch hunt and attacks on character.

Aiding the dev with proper and clean communications to have a better system or even making a mod with what would be considered a better vision for the relationship system and contacting the dev to see if it could be integrated would both be much better actions.

 

[PBY]

Yeah. I feel bad from the dev. It seems obvious this is something he was scared of.

I don't think any of this will end up being better if everyone simply reacts offensively to this and calls forth the usual witch hunt and attacks on character.

Aiding the dev with proper and clean communications to have a better system or even making a mod with what would be considered a better vision for the relationship system and contacting to the dev to see if it could be integrated would both be much better actions.

I mean... I think people just want to engage in discourse, not a witch hunt. Based on what we know about this dude, though, his intentions seem fairly obvious.

 

[UncleSporky]

I feel bad for Shabutaro. Shouldn't have to fall all over yourself pre-emptively apologizing and worrying about "sounding like one of those people" for taking a thoughtful stance of gentle education. You're as worried about being roasted by the mob as the developer, just for advocating giving him a chance, not even being on his side.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Every once in a while RPS likes to stir the pot. The response shouldn't be anger though.

 

[aeolist]

Every once in a while RPS likes to stir the pot. The response shouldn't be anger though.

the article itself is a fairly dry and straightforward analysis of the code and its implications. there's really nothing there to support sylvester's extreme and angry response.

people are falling all over themselves to excuse the game and the dev when he himself was the one who started a fight, not RPS. it's hard to advocate for a reasoned and logical discussion with a person who instantly jumped to irrational rage.

 

[bltn]

Looks like the game world he created reflects the world he lives in.

Wonder why he had to put his personal assumptions into game logic like that though... Maybe there's a reason for it, don't know much about the game tbh.

 

[FyreWulff]

the article itself is a fairly dry and straightforward analysis of the code and its implications. there's really nothing there to support sylvester's extreme and angry response.

people are falling all over themselves to excuse the game and the dev when he himself was the one who started a fight, not RPS. it's hard to advocate for a reasoned and logical discussion with a person who instantly jumped to irrational rage.

i also found it hilarious that he said "it was just quickly thrown together" when he had to go specifically out the of the way to make all the different logic branches per-gender instead of just doing pure RNG

 

[gabbo]

This is really reaching. "Players are confined to only do the actions conforming to his worldview of sexuality?" What the heck? What is "do the actions?" The game isn't really about sexuality. It's about surviving on an alien landscape. You order your straight/gay/bi characters to go salvage, go farm, go harvest and cook and install light fixtures. These actions aren't about conforming to any specific worldview.

Aren't there thousands of games with nothing but heterosexual content in them? Are you confined in those games to "do the actions" as well? Mario has to rescue the princess, reinforcing the heterosexual worldview of the developers?

It normalizes the idea that women/LGBTQ people should go about their usual daily routine with no reaction what so ever to advances (be they positive or negative) of people around them (and from the side of making the advances as well)

 

[BrutishMrFish]

i also found it hilarious that he said "it was just quickly thrown together" when he had to go specifically out the of the way to make all the different logic branches per-gender instead of just doing pure RNG

And the whole "alpha 15 has bugs that were fixed in alpha 16, so you're analyzing a broken system" excuse is a good one, too. I've never seen a programmer claim that not writing code for a particular feature is the same thing as a bug.

There's a place for open discussion. For learning & understanding. That doesn't mean there aren't lost causes out there too entrenched in ideologies to dig themselves out. But on the other hand, neither does that mean that there isn't a place for learning opportunities cultivated through non-aggressive, open conversation.

Reading through the dev's comments cited here lead me to believe that this is clearly a case of the latter.

His defensiveness and swiftness to blame biased journalism over what was a fairly dispassionate analysis of his code suggests that he's not open to learning anything that doesn't already conform to his worldviews.

 

[The Albatross]

I've never even heard of this game

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

i also found it hilarious that he said "it was just quickly thrown together" when he had to go specifically out the of the way to make all the different logic branches per-gender instead of just doing pure RNG

Would pure RNG even work? I'm not really buying that argument either but all or nothing is not a good argument for a game in progress.

 

[strata8]

the article itself is a fairly dry and straightforward analysis of the code and its implications. there's really nothing there to support sylvester's extreme and angry response.

people are falling all over themselves to excuse the game and the dev when he himself was the one who started a fight, not RPS. it's hard to advocate for a reasoned and logical discussion with a person who instantly jumped to irrational rage.

I mean, we're talking about a small indie dev who has had his code dissected by a well known website, and strong implications made about his intentions - on a subject as controversial as sexuality.

It doesn't excuse the initial angry response, but I can see how he might feel targeted. And he's said as much in later comments.