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[fresquito]

Great article. Ricki has always been a great player, glad shes finally getting some recognition for her work.

To be honest, I think she had a good day. I wouldn't say she was lucky, but the amount of reversal SBK she landed was just high enough to consider that an anormal number. Had a couple of them turned the wrong way, she could have been eliminated in the first few rounds.

But kudos to her for her footsies (shown through her HP abuse) and reads (SBK) and the general ability to stay cool during clutch moments.

 

[robotzombie]

It's super fucking boring & unbalanced

So you've resorted to lies at this point?

 

[entremet]

Big beefs with SFV.

Shit matchmaking. I mean Pokken kills it.

And locking your character for online play. This is supposedly to make matchmaking faster, but it's still shit and I love changing characters. Just hide the character select if they're concernerd with counter picking,

But I hate, hate, hate, being constrained to one character.

This is where the overt pro focused really lost me. And that's a very pro thing due to mains and such. I've always played SF with a cadre of fighters. I simply get bored having a single main. I'm not trying to compete in EVO.

 

[Imperfected]

I mean, whenever you're talking about sports there's a functional divide between what people enjoy playing, what is competitive, and what people enjoy watching. Sometimes those don't line up.

This is a pretty important point.

I like watching (American rules) football. I don't have any interest in playing football myself. I don't like to watch soccer. I do like to play soccer myself.

I do think SFV is probably the best as a spectator sport that a fighting game has ever been, for the record, because it's slow enough for commentators to not be completely useless hype men and "clean" enough that most of what's happening on the screen at any given time more or less makes sense. Compared to a game like MvC3, it's just a monumentally better viewer experience.

... but, it still has huge problems as a spectator sport. The main one being that in terms of a "narrative structure" the only time it really "works" is when you get the full-on salty runback, which is actually reasonably infrequent, and by the nature of the tournament structure just can't really happen in half the games.

 

[mnz]

To be honest, I think she had a good day. I wouldn't say she was lucky, but the amount of reversal SBK she landed was just high enough to consider that an anormal number. Had a couple of them turned the wrong way, she could have been eliminated in the first few rounds.

But kudos to her for her footsies (shown through her HP abuse) and reads (SBK) and the general ability to stay cool during clutch moments.

Wow, are we downplaying it already? She fucking crushed Kazunoko 3-0 in the losers final, made amazing comeback all tournament and went for the risky stuff when litterally hundreds of thousands were on the line. Had a good day...

Come back when America can win an SF game at EVO despite making up 90% of the entrants.

I'm not American, but Capcom Cup ranks higher for me. 90+% at EVO is cannon fodder and it's an expensive trip so you don't actually have the best of the world competing, because they can't always achieve it.

Big beefs with SFV.

Shit matchmaking. I mean Pokken kills it.

And locking your character for online play. This is supposedly to make matchmaking faster, but it's still shit and I love changing characters. Just hide the character select if they're concernerd with counter picking,

But I hate, hate, hate, being constrained to one character.

This is where the overt pro focused really lost me. And that's a very pro thing due to mains and such. I've always played SF with a cadre of fighters. I simply get bored having a single main. I'm not trying to compete in EVO.

You can change your character within seconds and you could not counter-pick in SF4 since you only saw the pick after both locked it in. There is zero difference to the mind game.

 

[TheSpoiler]

People who think she had a good day don't understand how many times Ricki has placed in EVO. Like probably one of the most consistent and frequent people, mayne even over Wong overall in placement.

 

[mnz]

People who think she had a good day don't understand how many times Ricki has placed in EVO. Like probably one of the most consistent and frequent people, mayne even over Wong overall in placement.

Too many second places, I guess.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Too many second places, I guess.

Getting second place at no joke tbh.

Most players wish they could have that run.

 

[SENPAIatLARGE]

I love SFV to death, but I got major beef with the tutorial system. If you want to learn how to play a character, actually useful combos and set ups,you need to go outside of the game. The fact that the command list doesn't even tell you what moves do is a travesty.

 

[meerak]

Interesting article OP, thanks for sharing.

Wish not every thread devolved into random SFV hate / defence.

Anyways, I do like the game and the CPT and it was a great year for SFV. The ESPN2 broadcast of EVO is probably my highlight? Felt like a watershed moment for the FGC.

I think SFV does have some great characteristics for viewers - among FGs specifically I appreciate the physical clarity of the characters, who are not over-accessorized. As well, moves tend to have such unique profiles, and this helped me in understanding the game.

Diversity was always the thing that got me in to SF. When I was a young brown kid who had no friends and thought everyone hated him, I was utterly shocked to see Dhalsim, a character who for all intents and purposes is brown, but also cool. I was shocked. There were characters from many nations, so much so it seemed the game was outright saying "Wherever you come from, there is a dope fighter! We're ALL cool."

Maybe this isn't the case really, and maybe it has more to do with arcade economics, but I bet a big reason the SF community has so much diversity is because the game has that really built in as something inportant to the design. Like many arabs, I was elated about Shaheen (Tekken) and Rashid (though I don't play him) and when I saw how they treated the latter via animations and the story mode.. Well I'm not too embarassed to say I cried a little. I'm 30 now, and in my life I never would have thought that hate and fear of people would grow worse as I got older... but lo. And so at a time when arabs are all but invisible except as villians in media, I feel like SF is reaching out an open hand, saying "We got you!" The actual Middle East tournaments, the community there, and the mutual respect among communities, well.. it all makes me quite happy. Sorry to rant!

 

[DedValve]

SF did a lot in cultivating a diverse culture by having the best fighters from around the world type of story.

There were stereotypes but they were never too insensitive or outrageous (except that fucking chef, what a weak ass mexican rep) and it felt like these truly were the coolest fighters of *insert country here*.

Its also why I think Overwatch has such a huge appeal, I think their eventual goal is to take something from each country and its culture and apply it to their character much like SF.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Interesting article OP, thanks for sharing.

Wish not every thread devolved into random SFV hate / defence.

Anyways, I do like the game and the CPT and it was a great year for SFV. The ESPN2 broadcast of EVO is probably my highlight? Felt like a watershed moment for the FGC.

I think SFV does have some great characteristics for viewers - among FGs specifically I appreciate the physical clarity of the characters, who are not over-accessorized. As well, moves tend to have such unique profiles, and this helped me in understanding the game.

Diversity was always the thing that got me in to SF. When I was a young brown kid who had no friends and thought everyone hated him, I was utterly shocked to see Dhalsim, a character who for all intents and purposes is brown, but also cool. I was shocked. There were characters from many nations, so much so it seemed the game was outright saying "Wherever you come from, there is a dope fighter! We're ALL cool."

Maybe this isn't the case really, and maybe it has more to do with arcade economics, but I bet a big reason the SF community has so much diversity is because the game has that really built in as something inportant to the design. Like many arabs, I was elated about Shaheen (Tekken) and Rashid (though I don't play him) and when I saw how they treated the latter via animations and the story mode.. Well I'm not too embarassed to say I cried a little. I'm 30 now, and in my life I never would have thought that hate and fear of people would grow worse as I got older... but lo. And so at a time when arabs are all but invisible except as villians in media, I feel like SF is reaching out an open hand, saying "We got you!" The actual Middle East tournaments, the community there, and the mutual respect among communities, well.. it all makes me quite happy. Sorry to rant!

Damn dude that's a good story. I like how Rashid is the hero of the story and it's done organically.

 

[ColonialHawk]

I love SFV to death, but I got major beef with the tutorial system. If you want to learn how to play a character, actually useful combos and set ups,you need to go outside of the game. The fact that the command list doesn't even tell you what moves do is a travesty.

Have you checked out demonstrations and trials? The trials besides one or two combos are pretty good at teaching some basic BnBs and demonstrations go into the details of a character, though they aren't interactive, but they give good advice on the character and his/her moves.
Setups, idk about that one as I personally feel that's something you learn on your own once you have your characters' moves down.

If by "command list not telling what moves do" you mean frame data then yeah I agree, but I'm not sure what you mean by that last sentence.

 

[entremet]

Wow, are we downplaying it already? She fucking crushed Kazunoko 3-0 in the losers final, made amazing comeback all tournament and went for the risky stuff when litterally hundreds of thousands were on the line. Had a good day...


I'm not American, but Capcom Cup ranks higher for me. 90+% at EVO is cannon fodder and it's an expensive trip so you don't actually have the best of the world competing, because they can't always achieve it.


You can change your character within seconds and you could not counter-pick in SF4 since you only saw the pick after both locked it in. There is zero difference to the mind game.

It's still annoying from a UI perspective. I want to change during matchmaking like SF4. The current setup bothers me immensely.

 

[Ucchedavāda]

If by "command list not telling what moves do" you mean frame data then yeah I agree, but I'm not sure what you mean by that last sentence.

As an example of how to do it, see Killer Instinct. That game not only gives you frame data, but also a verbal description of what the move does and its properties. For example, Orchid's "Flick Kick" is described as "a multi hitting handstand kick. Can be used as an opener". See here for more examples.

 

[mnz]

It's still annoying from a UI perspective. I want to change during matchmaking like SF4. The current setup bothers me immensely.

You can change during match-making. Just go into Battle Settings, it's possiblke from anywhere in the game.

That's not what he means and I'm sure you know it.

Not really. I just don't see the difference between how it is now and how it was except that we save another screen.
And a lot of people didn't know you could do that when the game came out.

 

[Wiseblade]

You can change during match-making. Just go into Battle Settings, it's possiblke from anywhere in the game.

That's not what he means and I'm sure you know it.

 

[TheSeks]

Interesting part about the whole age thing. I've heard interviews with professional Starcraft and Dota players mentioning physically feeling like they can't keep up once they're in their late 20s. Meanwhile, many of the FGC's heaviest hitters are well into their 30s.

Unless it's changed since I last noticed: Isn't a lot of those folks the same folks that have been playing since the late 90's? There isn't very many in terms of "new blood" trickling in. It's happening, but it's slow.

 

[Tripon]

Unless it's changed since I last noticed: Isn't a lot of those folks the same folks that have been playing since the late 90's? There isn't very many in terms of "new blood" trickling in. It's happening, but it's slow.

The community is bigger. A guy like Nuckledu started playing competitively at 14 in South Florida locals and is 23 now. Growth doesn't just mean new players coming in, it also means that people who have been in the community finds their role and contributes to that growth as well.

 

[entremet]

You can change during match-making. Just go into Battle Settings, it's possiblke from anywhere in the game.


Not really. I just don't see the difference between how it is now and how it was except that we save another screen.
And a lot of people didn't know you could do that when the game came out.

It's still very awkward from UI perspective since it locks your choice. I want a blank state before each match. This is how it's been done with fighting games for decades now and it works.

Not sure why you're not getting this.

 

[SENPAIatLARGE]

Have you checked out demonstrations and trials? The trials besides one or two combos are pretty good at teaching some basic BnBs and demonstrations go into the details of a character, though they aren't interactive, but they give good advice on the character and his/her moves.
Setups, idk about that one as I personally feel that's something you learn on your own once you have your characters' moves down.

If by "command list not telling what moves do" you mean frame data then yeah I agree, but I'm not sure what you mean but that last sentence.

How am I supposed to know that a tasumaki senpukya is a spin kick if I never played the game? How do I know what a Sonic Boom or Devils reverse is? A simple 1 sentence explanation would go a long way. Not everything has to be a trial by fire for newcomers.

 

[Hueytothe]

Color of your skin and sexuality is OK

Not even, they spam the trihex emote whenever a black person is on stream, they spam the rainbow kappa emote whenever a gay person is on stream, and even fat jokes if a competitor is large.

 

[Grakl]

It feels like Simon kinda forgot to write about the diversity part

 

[BronsonLee]

SFV is pretty easy to get into IMO but KI is on a whole other level with that stuff, it's dirt easy

 

[FluxWaveZ]

It's still very awkward from UI perspective since it locks your choice. I want a blank state before each match. This is how it's been done with fighting games for decades now and it works.

Not sure why you're not getting this.

There are plenty of modern fighting games that use the SFV method of selecting a character before an online session and skipping character select. The ASW games do this for match making. If you want character select, then you can go to Battle Lounge. Otherwise, it's better this way as it saves time.

 

[SENPAIatLARGE]

SFV is pretty easy to get into IMO but KI is on a whole other level with that stuff, it's dirt easy

I hope MvC:I has a tutorial system half as good as KI or skullgirls

lmao at the idea that SFV makes an effort to save you timem

 

[BronsonLee]

I hope MvC:I has a tutorial system half as good as KI or skullgirls

If they're smart they make the story a tutorial system where you use a bunch of different people

 

[Xamtheking]

If they're smart they make the story a tutorial system where you use a bunch of different people

If combofiend is involved, the only tutorial character is spencer and all voice lines are replaced by "BIONIC ARRRRRRRRRMMMMMM"

 

[Diprosalic]

Because more people play those games.

Also they don't make a big enough deal of America winning Capcom Cup. And not only did America win it but it was an all American Grand Finals.

The rest of the world has to HOLD DAT L!!!!

You know that we came all together and decided to give this to you guys? I mean you americans needed a little bit of a cheer up. We're fine.

 

[Garlador]

I'll criticize Capcom endlessly where needed, but I've never criticized them for their approach to diversity and making games with rosters that appeal to a wide variety of players from all walks of life.

It's probably the one thing they have always excelled at.

 

[Zackat]

SFV matchmaking is also pretty good now. I always fight people within my skill range.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Not even, they spam the trihex emote whenever a black person is on stream, they spam the rainbow kappa emote whenever a gay person is on stream, and even fat jokes if a competitor is large.

Yeah I didn't catch that in the previous post but black people get called names allll the time. Even mike ross isn't free of it.

 

[entremet]

There are plenty of modern fighting games that use the SFV method of selecting a character before an online session and skipping character select. The ASW games do this for match making. If you want character select, then you can go to Battle Lounge. Otherwise, it's better this way as it saves time.

I don't if know ASW fighters should be the template for mainstream style success Capcom is going after though.

And Battle Lounge was crap last time I used in terms of matchmaking. Ranked is still better.

 

[Scrub Mcgrubb]

As to the talk about how bad the stream chat is for fighting games-

I was in the chat the night a Killer Instinct player had a heart attack and basically died on stream at Super Arcade.... there were people laughing and making fun of the situation. It clearly wasn't a joke or prank while people were freaking out and calling an ambulance- and I saw some of the most cold hearted comments of my entire life going on in chat.

Stream monster is kind of a general meme... but there's quite a few that are legit mentally disturbed.

 

[Imperfected]

You know that we came all together and decided to give this to you guys? I mean you americans needed a little bit of a cheer up. We're fine.

I mean, that would be more believable if it wasn't mostly Japan that was the alternate option.

Japan hasn't not needed every win they can scrounge out since, like, 1992?

 

[ColonialHawk]

How am I supposed to know that a tasumaki senpukya is a spin kick if I never played the game? How do I know what a Sonic Boom or Devils reverse is? A simple 1 sentence explanation would go a long way. Not everything has to be a trial by fire for newcomers.

They go over those moves in the demonstrations for the character. And your not wrong, having descriptions would help especially with the v-guage system, but again they decided to use the demonstrations to explain these things.

I know it's not perfect but SFV is more beginner friendly than SFIV was or any street fighter before it. They have to improve on it definitely but they have some good stuff to help someone new get into it.

 

[sixghost]

Interesting part about the whole age thing. I've heard interviews with professional Starcraft and Dota players mentioning physically feeling like they can't keep up once they're in their late 20s. Meanwhile, many of the FGC's heaviest hitters are well into their 30s.

I don't know enough about starcraft to comment, but I would definitely say fighters are more demanding in terms of execution/reaction times than Dota, which makes it all the more perplexing to me.

Starcraft players dropping off in their 20s has more to do with the unbelievable amount of hours you need to practice in order to be the best. Brood War in particular was so mechanically demanding that even the best players were at risk of being passed up by some hungry 17 year old who was willing to put in 12-13 hours a day.

 

[Hubb]

I don't if know ASW fighters should be the template for mainstream style success Capcom is going after though.

And Battle Lounge was crap last time I used in terms of matchmaking. Ranked is still better.

ASW's success or lack thereof doesn't hinge on their character select model. Their games do plenty of great things despite their sales.

 

[pizzacat]

I'm not sure why AA jabs are seen as the worst thing ever, jump ins are the most powerful thing in the game that lead to big dmg, jab AA leads to a reset, a mix up maybe, AAs don't lead to anything as big as a jump in so the risk/reward of AAing is just broken now

A character like Alex at least needs a tool like that. That's why his jab AA is like the best in the game barring chun lis lk.

 

[SENPAIatLARGE]

The fact that there is no harsher penalty to rage quitting then not playing is such a travesty. The fact that you aren't locked into a best 2/3 every ranked match is just a dumb.

 

[TheSpoiler]

The fact that there is no harsher penalty to rage quitting then not playing is such a travesty. The fact that you aren't locked into a best 2/3 every ranked match is just a dumb.

Tbh it's a good idea when someone's connection is complete ass. I don't want a run back on some underwater shit.

 

[Producer]

Lol at people talking about netplay and aa jabs in here

 

[GoaThief]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhnObclA_R0

Nothing eh? Not even the end?

Haha. Sorry, but that is a huge mess. Even the screen clutter is pretty abhorrent. British commentator was good though, he definitely enjoys it.

SFV is significantly easier for the layperson and IMHO a much superior spectator sport all round. I'm really pleased SFV is doing well and getting coverage on ESPN and mainstream media. That said I still don't think its the finest example when we have the likes of

https://youtu.be/AdpaLMs2_48

Rocket League.

(As someone who plays at a high level I think the first goal by Pluto is probably my favourite but that's not the point. It's clean and incredibly easy to understand, and the chosen video isn't the best example just one basically plucked at random)

 

[Gurnlei]

Out of all the fighters I play, from my experience, SF has the best community by far. Lots of people willing to help train newer players and just seeing the diversity in a lot of top-ranking players makes me happy to be part of it all.

 

[HotHamBoy]

I remember watching the finals and texting my friends that it was a huge deal that a trans person was possibly going to win a couple million dollars playing Street Fighter V, and that it would be on ESPN2.

But it was eSports so no one cared

I was rooting for Ortiz, though. Pretty cool. The FGC is really toxic, you should (not) have read the Twitch chat. It must be a tough battle for Ricki, even outside the game.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I remember watching the finals and texting my friends that it was a huge deal that a trans person was possibly going to win a couple million dollars playing Street Fighter V, and that it would be on ESPN2.

But it was eSports so no one cared

I was rooting for Ortiz, though. Pretty cool. The FGC is really toxic, you should (not) have read the Twitch chat. It must be a tough battle for Ricki, even outside the game.

Ricki grew up in arcades with 3s and Marvel 2 heads. Doubt twitch chat gets to her.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

I don't fuck with fighting games, not since Tekken on PS1, and yet the genre is easily one of the best, if not the best, to spectate.

 

[MrCarter]

Sorry but whoooo caaaaares...I don't!

I don't care about pro players. I don't care about pro tournaments. I just want to enjoy the game I paid $60 for and the $30 or whatever season pass I coughed up a year ago. And I simply have not enjoyed my experience with the game whatsoever.

I think Capcom pandering to the tournament scene has contributed to this game's lukewarm reception. I understand that's a very import crowd to cater to, but not at the expense of the "casual" player.

And I'm wrapping "casual" in parenthesis but I am anything but. I have been playing Street Fighter since it debut in the arcades and it's by far my favorite franchise. I have bought so many copies of the game over 2+ decades, it would be a fool's errand to even recount them here. My point being: I feel left out! Even when pro players are "on my side," expressing their frustrations with the game's release, it seemingly rings hollow. We're not the same. We have different needs and wants. Pro players likely received the game for free, etc etc.

Fuck Street Fighter 5.

You clearly care enough to post. Well done for adding nothing to this discussion.

 

[ShinMaruku]

I could live to 100 and ill never understand how games like League of Legends and DOTA2 became bigger spectator games than Street Figbter.

It is fairly simple those games have a large percentage of their player base also watching. Also a fighting game requires a mindset that most people do not have. I wish the developers or the promoters got it through their skulls that the games will never be as big as they want it.

 

[Sheroking]

It is fairly simple those games have a large percentage of their player base also watching. Also a fighting game requires a mindset that most people do not have. I wish the developers or the promoters got it through their skulls that the games will never be as big as they want it.

Not only would I say this is NOT true, I would say it's not even close to true.

70 million unique users play League every month. Their top streams ever max out at, what, 500,000-600,000 concurrent viewers? Street Fighter V has sold like 600,000 units or something to that effect and pushed 140k concurrent curing Capcom Cup. Not even including ESPN2, which probably had non-gamers watching, SFV at EVO had 190,000 or something at it's peak. So I would argue Street Fighter (at least for the biggest tournaments) has a much bigger percentage of it's players watching events - it just has far fewer people who own the game.

The reasons the FGC, led by Street Fighter, can never be this big are these IMO:

The top esports are League, DOTA, CS:GO and Hearthstone. Maybe H1Z1 is getting there, too. Dirt cheap or F2P games that run on every PC. Team sports are always more popular than singles and the barrier for entry doesn't quite require the same 200+ hour learning curve that a fighter does. Not to imply it doesn't take time to master, but your first fighting game is a daunting learning curve.

That being said, I don't think it needs to be that big. 100-200k peak viewers is still really good in general. Sponsors and networks see opportunity. We're not at risk of dying out competitively and we're still growing.