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[Sanctuary]

They need to do a better job advertising the Pro if they want to sell more of them. A friend of mine just bought a 4K TV, and a "PS4". When I asked him if it was the Pro, he didn't know what I was talking about, and said that it's just a PS4. Money wasn't even a consideration here either.

 

[Izuna]

They need to do a better job advertising the Pro if they want to sell more of them. A friend of mine just bought a 4K TV, and a "PS4". When I asked him if it was the Pro, he didn't know what I was talking about, and said that it's just a PS4. Money wasn't even a consideration here either.

speak of the devil

 

[III-V]

They need to do a better job advertising the Pro if they want to sell more of them. A friend of mine just bought a 4K TV, and a "PS4". When I asked him if it was the Pro, he didn't know what I was talking about, and said that it's just a PS4. Money wasn't even a consideration here either.

Thats amazing.

 

[The Beard]

Actually, what they are seeing when they shop for a console is:

Xbox One S
$429 (first hit on Amazon)
Same power as Xbone
Plays 4K bluray media

PS4 Pro
$399 (first hit on Amazon)
4x the power as XboneS
Plays 4K streaming media

Literally, that is what they are seeing when they look for a console right now.

Out of all my friends, I know of 2 people that still use DVD/BR disk media. My parents, and my grandparents. Even as anecdotal as it is, I don't see this message hurting the PS4 momentum in any way shape or form.

Lol

Yeah, ok.

Even the dumbest of people can find out that an Xbone S is available for $250 right now.

 

[chromatic9]

I don't think Sony opted out of 4k blu-ray because of cost

Saving $15 on 8 million units = $120m. It also allows flexibility on bundles and deals and generally they'd have to eat the cost of the UHD player or skimp out something else to hit RRP $400.

if you look at Sony's profits then saving 120m is quite a big deal

I reckon Sony might include a UHD player when other costs go down or if US and UK sales continue to be closer than in the past. The recent surge for Xbox One S could be many factors and we'll see if it slows back down in the coming months.

 

[Kilau]

Funny you mention this. As I was at BB the other day, I saw people buying like 10 Xbox's I guess they are a hot item at this point.

Like stacks of 10 xbox's each? Should be monster sales for the month.

 

[family_guy]

Funny you mention this. As I was at BB the other day, I saw people buying like 10 Xbox's I guess they are a hot item at this point.

I still believe people think the Xbox One S is the Scorpio.

 

[Izuna]

I still believe people think the Xbox One S is the Scorpio.

It isn't?!

Spoiler

haven't heard this one yet, but boy, that would be silly

 

[bubumiao]

There is too much information in this thread being tossed back and forth. Hard to keep track of what I wanted to say, but I'll mention this. The "not true 4k" argument is weak. The games that are 1440 or 1800 upscaled to 2160 are gonna look pretty damn good.

Checker board is a good thing. The Scorpio is going to be overpowered and that's essentially what you're going to end up paying for (if you buy one). I can't remember who said it (Cerney or someone), but that's what they were saying.

We've been playing games at lesser resolutions for years upscaled to 1080p. They don't have to be rendered in 4K to be good.

I'm not happy Sony didn't include the 4K Blu-ray player, but I don't usually buy physical movies anyways. I'm debating whether I'll even upgrade to Netflix's premium 4k offering (I suppose i will for a month just to check it out if nothing else). If Amazon's 4K content blows me away, well see.

I'll probably end up with a cheap 4K Blu-ray player or just grab an S.

I think a lot of it boils down to Sony wanting to push 4K TV's as well.

 

[MazeHaze]

I think you can appreciate the trend with expensive equipment and uninformed buyers. But I think I should clarify. I'm going saying 1080 -> 4K is hard to see for these people, but 1440p to 4K (or 1800p).

Honestly, as someone who plays a lot of games at 4k and 1080 and 1440 on a 55 inch tv from 5-6 feet away, the difference is small.

4k over 1080 looks sharper, but not by a ton. I can't tell the difference at all between 1440 and 4k.

Most any game I could lock framerate at 30 and play at 4k, but 1080 60 looks and feels way better.

On my ps4, im perfectly fine with 1080, 4k and some slight framerate improvements would be nice, but not 400 dollars nice.

 

[bubumiao]

On my ps4, im perfectly fine with 1080, 4k and some slight framerate improvements would be nice, but not 400 dollars nice.

The pro was just released though, give it a year and I'm sure we'll see some crazy visuals.

 

[MazeHaze]

The pro was just released though, give it a year and I'm sure we'll see some crazy visuals.

Will we though? All the games still have to run on base models, and the pro still has a cpu bottleneck. I expect it to continue as it is now until the next generation.

Edit: I'm not saying pro isn't nice, but even a year from now it won't look as good as my pc, and I don't even think the visual upgrade from pro to what my pc does currently is a very wide gap.

 

[rjcc]

And yes 4K streaming has a lower bitrate than a 1080p Bluray. It looks worse on screen than a standard Bluray because of it.

This is probably not true for most people. If you have a good internet connection, even Netflix streaming 4K is at worst on par with your average Blu-ray. Vudu 4K streams definitely look better than the same thing on Blu-ray, and 4K streams with Dolby vision HDR look wayyyy better.

 

[chromatic9]

Will we though? All the games still have to run on base models, and the pro still has a cpu bottleneck. I expect it to continue as it is now until the next generation.

Edit: I'm not saying pro isn't nice, but even a year from now it won't look as good as my pc, and I don't even think the visual upgrade from pro to what my pc does currently is a very wide gap.

Scorpio will be interesting if they can have a better CPU.

Resolution bump over 1080p alone isn't a great pull for even the dedicated gamer. When you offer a premium system to play the same games, you might expect to pay more for 60fps over the base 30fps at 1080p. I've heard this a lot from gamers.

Textures are more noticeable on comparisons and also go hand in hand with resolution. ROTTR on PS4 Pro misses out on better textures, it has Xbox One textures.

If Scorpio's 12GB of ram means use of ultra textures then its just going to look better in all modes and the better CPU can possibly offer 60 or mostly 60 in unlocked frame rate modes at 1080p for multiplats like ROTTR, the Scorpio will look to be worth it to your gamer out there. Plus on top of that there's more chance of native 4k 30 and 2160p checkerboard where resolution really is more noticeable.

 

[Massa]

Will we though? All the games still have to run on base models, and the pro still has a cpu bottleneck. I expect it to continue as it is now until the next generation.

Edit: I'm not saying pro isn't nice, but even a year from now it won't look as good as my pc, and I don't even think the visual upgrade from pro to what my pc does currently is a very wide gap.

If you play games on PC you should easily notice the benefits of PS4 Pro right now. Games that run at 20-30 fps like the Last Guardian can run at a stable frame rate on the Pro. Games that sacrificed image quality on the PS4 running below 1080p look much clearer on the Pro. And it's not a $400 upgrade if you actually 'upgrade' it.

 

[bubumiao]

Will we though? All the games still have to run on base models, and the pro still has a cpu bottleneck. I expect it to continue as it is now until the next generation.

Edit: I'm not saying pro isn't nice, but even a year from now it won't look as good as my pc, and I don't even think the visual upgrade from pro to what my pc does currently is a very wide gap.

I don't know what the specs of your PC are, but I'm guessing you probably won't be all that impressed by Scorpio either. Maybe I'm just optimistic. I don't have a 4K TV yet, and I just hooked up my first ps4 this week (it's a pro and I never had an og), so maybe I don't have the best judgment of the IQ yet. Waiting til I get my new TV to even bother with pro enhanced titles.

 

[Celcius]

If requested I can explain why purchasing current OLED tv's is a bad move.

Please elaborate if you don't mind.

 

[StudioTan]

The main difference for movies is that you can use streaming services that offer 4K.

If you have a 4k TV then you're almost guaranteed to have one that can already access 4k streaming content without having to purchase a console to do it.

 

[Zedox]

There is too much information in this thread being tossed back and forth. Hard to keep track of what I wanted to say, but I'll mention this. The "not true 4k" argument is weak. The games that are 1440 or 1800 upscaled to 2160 are gonna look pretty damn good.

Checker board is a good thing. The Scorpio is going to be overpowered and that's essentially what you're going to end up paying for (if you buy one). I can't remember who said it (Cerney or someone), but that's what they were saying.

We've been playing games at lesser resolutions for years upscaled to 1080p. They don't have to be rendered in 4K to be good.

I'm not happy Sony didn't include the 4K Blu-ray player, but I don't usually buy physical movies anyways. I'm debating whether I'll even upgrade to Netflix's premium 4k offering (I suppose i will for a month just to check it out if nothing else). If Amazon's 4K content blows me away, well see.

I'll probably end up with a cheap 4K Blu-ray player or just grab an S.

I think a lot of it boils down to Sony wanting to push 4K TV's as well.

DAFUQ?

 

[Hoje0308]

Checker board is a good thing. The Scorpio is going to be overpowered and that's essentially what you're going to end up paying for (if you buy one). I can't remember who said it (Cerney or someone), but that's what they were saying.

If mental gymnastics were an Olympic sport, you'd be on a Wheaties box by now.

 

[Izuna]

DAFUQ?

It's the biggest BS I've seen.

 

[Smokey]

DAFUQ?

"The one thing I don't like about the Scorpio, is that it's almost too strong"

 

[Hoje0308]

"The one thing I don't like about the Scorpio, is that it's almost too strong"

Not as balanced as Pro.

 

[Metfanant]

Notice I said 1440pISH. I'm obviously referring to all the sub 4k games that are upscaled. Not a knock, they look great, but my point still stands.

And agenda? I have no agenda, I love Sony and love my ps4.

Also if anyone thinks the upscaling of a ps4 pro of 1080p blu rays is in any way better than the upscaling of high end 4k tvs, I'm sorry but you are misinformed.

Except they are not really 1440pish at all...The majority of games are either 4k, checkerboard 4k, checkerboard 1800p and then upscaled, or 1080p...

There is I believe 1 single game that renders out at 1440p...And I believe MW:R is something like 1620p and then upscaled...

I'd still like to see the receipts on the upscaling..I'd be very interested to see what Sony had to say about it

 

[Apt101]

I had an i7-4790 and a GTX in my PC, but I realized it was overpowered for most games at 1080p so I threw it in the dumpster and now just play games on my PS4 Pro.

 

[CrispyBoar]

So is McDonald's. What's actually more convenient though is owning a disc, ripping it and having your entire collection on one hard drive. You then get the convenience of streaming and a much higher quality.

Question is, how can I do that?

 

[KrawlMan]

"The one thing I don't like about the Scorpio, is that it's almost too strong"

It makes sense if the extra power is barely utilized and added costs are passed to the consumer. Not saying that will be the case but it's possible if PS4 Pro sets the standard.

 

[Hoje0308]

It makes sense if the extra power is barely utilized and added costs are passed to the consumer. Not saying that will be the case but it's possible if PS4 Pro sets the standard.

This makes no sense to me. Pro hasn't added costs and people like me appreciated the upgrade. Scorpio is like Pro, but will likely be a much better upgrade.

 

[KrawlMan]

This makes no sense to me. Pro hasn't added costs and people like me appreciated the upgrade. Scorpio is like Pro, but will likely be a much better upgrade.

Pro is some amount more expensive than PS4. That is an added cost.

What I'm stating is that hypothetically releases on PS4 Pro and Scorpio could be nearly identical to most consumers because developers opt not to effectiely leverage the extra power over PS4 pro for whatever reason. At this point any price difference is a waste to the consumer.

I'm not saying this will happen. I'm only explaining how one could imagine a world where the Scorpio is "too powerful"

 

[Hoje0308]

Pro is some amount more expensive than PS4. That is an added cost.

What I'm stating is that hypothetically releases on PS4 Pro and Scorpio could be nearly identical to most consumers because developers opt not to effectiely leverage the extra power over PS4 pro for whatever reason. At this point any price difference is a waste to the consumer.

I'm not saying this will happen. I'm only explaining how one could imagine a world where the Scorpio is "too powerful"

Ah, I wrongly assumed you were talking about dev costs. The utilization risk is also there with Pro, but Scorpio should have far fewer limitations, especially if MS moves away from the awful Jaguar CPU. At worst we could have a situation where multiplats are generally better on Scorpio, just like we've seen between PS4/XB1 and, at best, there could be be titles that run at 60fps on Scorpio and 30 on Pro. If I were shopping for a console next fall, I think Scorpio would almost certainly be my choice, as the advantages, big or small, should be there nearly every time. And consumers don't necessarily have to know why a product is better to respond favorably to it. I have to assume MS will be screaming from the rooftops that their console is the most powerful on the market by quite a margin and that'll resonate with some percentage of people the don't know a damn thing about CPUs, teraflops or memory bandwidth.

 

[jryi]

Saving $15 on 8 million units = $120m.

It doesn't really even matter, if the cost difference is anywhere near $15. Manufacturers try to shave as much cost from the device as they can get away with. And there are multiple variables that Sony needs to balance. Most important of these are volume and margin.

Let's assume that Sony does not want to sell consoles at a loss, which locks the minimum retail price at manufacturing cost. Retail price affects volumes: there is a significant difference between $399 and $419, for example. (And $409 is simply a dumb price, nobody goes with that.)

Suppose that Sony could have squeezed the price to $399 with UHD BD, but with zero margin. It wouldn't matter a bit, how many more sales they got, because N times zero is still zero. If they sell 5 million UHD'less Pros with $5 margin, that's $25M. Much more than zero, isn't it?

Now, if Sony were able to make profit from Pros with UHD BD included, some more estimates were required. Like, what is the increase in volume. Supposing they could go from 5M to 6M (which I highly, highly doubt), and the difference in margin is $2 to $1 (generous assumption, right?), Pro without a UHD drive would still make $10 million to $6 million of the "better" model.

Of course, Sony could adjust the retail price, but higher price usually leads to lower volumes, which affects total profit.

I genuinely believe that Sony has a bunch of pretty smart people who are better informed about consumers' price sensitivity, BOMs and effect of features on volumes than I am. Heck, I'd be willing to bet that they are more informed than most people discussing in this thread.

 

[nel e nel]

Lol

Yeah, ok.

Even the dumbest of people can find out that an Xbone S is available for $250 right now.

Yeah, was about to say that the first hit I saw was $299 for the 1tb Battlefield version, then the $250 standard version.

 

[SolidusDave]

It makes sense if the extra power is barely utilized and added costs are passed to the consumer. Not saying that will be the case but it's possible if PS4 Pro sets the standard.

But the pro can't even really do 4K in games without compromises. It's always: higher res with normal graphics and low framerate, or normal res with better graphics and normal framerate, or better framerate with normal graphics and res.
The Scorpio will just be better at that. If anything the PS4pro is underpowered for what it's supposed to do.

If you are arguing that the Scorpio's power is a waste then so is the Pro's, both offer only very limited graphical enhancements resulting in barely visible differences often enough (HDR aside which is the biggest improvement in graphics this year but can't count that as it's available on OG PS4 and XB, ironically). Diminishing returns and all that, especially considering all games have to be developed for the OG PS4 and XB1.

 

[Izuna]

Question is, how can I do that?

I don't believe you can with UHD without some serious equipment.

You'd also need a dope af home network to stream at that sort of bitrate.

 

[Metfanant]

But the pro can't even really do 4K in games without compromises. It's always: higher res with normal graphics and low framerate, or normal res with better graphics and normal framerate, or better framerate with normal graphics and res.
The Scorpio will just be better at that. If anything the PS4pro is underpowered for what it's supposed to do.

What? FIFA, and NBA 2k are two games right off the top of my hea, in my half awake getting ready for work state of mind that are native 4k...Run at the same frame rate, and while idk about NBA...But at least in FIFA graphics are slightly improved...

 

[SolidusDave]

What? FIFA, and NBA 2k are two games right off the top of my hea, in my half awake getting ready for work state of mind that are native 4k...Run at the same frame rate, and while idk about NBA...But at least in FIFA graphics are slightly improved...

Wow, two sports games don't have to compromise. That changes everything I wrote.
Come on, man. We are talking the majority of games here, in particular new demanding (AAA) releases.

 

[Purest 78]

They need to do a better job advertising the Pro if they want to sell more of them. A friend of mine just bought a 4K TV, and a "PS4". When I asked him if it was the Pro, he didn't know what I was talking about, and said that it's just a PS4. Money wasn't even a consideration here either.

Many outside gaming forums have no clue the pro exist. I asked some of my friends if they were getting the Pro, none of them knew about it.

 

[Dunlop]

At least out the gate, Sony has already lost the narrative on this one. The comparison is now Xbox One S vs PS4 Pro instead of the Slim, in which the cheaper console has actual and perceived advantages over the more expensive one.

For the average consumer that only somewhat follows gaming news, they see:

Xbox One S
$300
More powerful than Xbox One, faster load times, higher framerate
Upscales all games to 4K
Plays 4K bluray

PS4 Pro
$400
More powerful than PS4, games need to be patched
Some patched games play worse
Not quite native 4K games
No 4K bluray

I'm happy with my Pro, but they fumbled this one and are being carried forward by the momentum of the PS4 brand.

Edit for clarity and stability:
Long story short, both being advertised as 4K consoles and the lack of a UHD drive in the more powerful/expensive one suddenly puts unequal products on even ground for comparison and drives the mostly inaccurate narrative bulleted above.

I hang around here all the time and I still had to dig past a ton of praise levied on S and pull up PS4 specs separately to find that improvements are marginal at best and still track behind PS4 substantially, and was pretty confused why S vs Pro was the more common comparison instead of S vs Slim.

The first Xbox One S I see when searching amazom is a $250 bundle with Battlefield 1

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01L1Y0TCC/?tag=neogaf0e-20

I have to actually scroll down the page over many other cheaper versions to find the one you listed above

 

[Sanctuary]

I don't believe you can with UHD without some serious equipment.

You'd also need a dope af home network to stream at that sort of bitrate.

Yeah, right now. I was actually talking about how it currently is with just Blu-ray. Eventually UHD will eventually follow suit. It's not like everyone was ripping and storing tons of Blu-rays on a single hard drive when they first arrived either.

Honestly, as someone who plays a lot of games at 4k and 1080 and 1440 on a 55 inch tv from 5-6 feet away, the difference is small.
I can't tell the difference at all between 1440 and 4k.

Neither can I with the same sized TV and viewing distance. Good thing I guess too, since I've been playing everything at 1440p anyway. This is also why I'm not bothered at all that the Pro isn't going to be rendering most games at 2160p. 1440p upscaled should be fine, and a definite improvement over 1080p.

Except they are not really 1440pish at all...The majority of games are either 4k, checkerboard 4k, checkerboard 1800p and then upscaled, or 1080p...

There is I believe 1 single game that renders out at 1440p...And I believe MW:R is something like 1620p and then upscaled...

I'd still like to see the receipts on the upscaling..I'd be very interested to see what Sony had to say about it

Just imagine when people say 1440p upscaled, they are actually talking about 1440p > checkerboard rendering > 2160p! Currently known titles have no bearing on future titles either.

 

[bubumiao]

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Or maybe I didn't totally understand what I read a month or so ago? I hope the pro can deliver. Maybe I'm expecting it to do more than it actually will?

 

[Vegetable Lasagna]

Actually, what they are seeing when they shop for a console is:

Xbox One S
$429 (first hit on Amazon)
Same power as Xbone
Plays 4K bluray media

PS4 Pro
$399 (first hit on Amazon)
4x the power as XboneS
Plays 4K streaming media

Literally, that is what they are seeing when they look for a console right now.

Out of all my friends, I know of 2 people that still use DVD/BR disk media. My parents, and my grandparents. Even as anecdotal as it is, I don't see this message hurting the PS4 momentum in any way shape or form.

Buahahaha you are good. Too good.

 

[etta]

There is too much information in this thread being tossed back and forth. Hard to keep track of what I wanted to say, but I'll mention this. The "not true 4k" argument is weak. The games that are 1440 or 1800 upscaled to 2160 are gonna look pretty damn good.

Checker board is a good thing. The Scorpio is going to be overpowered and that's essentially what you're going to end up paying for (if you buy one). I can't remember who said it (Cerney or someone), but that's what they were saying.

We've been playing games at lesser resolutions for years upscaled to 1080p. They don't have to be rendered in 4K to be good.

I'm not happy Sony didn't include the 4K Blu-ray player, but I don't usually buy physical movies anyways. I'm debating whether I'll even upgrade to Netflix's premium 4k offering (I suppose i will for a month just to check it out if nothing else). If Amazon's 4K content blows me away, well see.

I'll probably end up with a cheap 4K Blu-ray player or just grab an S.

I think a lot of it boils down to Sony wanting to push 4K TV's as well.

lols

 

[Krakin]

What a strange turn this thread has taken lol

 

[EASTC0AST_GH05T]

Wow, two sports games don't have to compromise. That changes everything I wrote.
Come on, man. We are talking the majority of games here, in particular new demanding (AAA) releases.

Does NBA 2K have super sampling on the PRO for 1080p screens?

 

[chromatic9]

It doesn't really even matter, if the cost difference is anywhere near $15.

$15 is $15 of course if would matter.

Manufacturers try to shave as much cost from the device as they can get away with. And there are multiple variables that Sony needs to balance. Most important of these are volume and margin.

You just inadvertently answered here. That's one reason to cut it which I also expressed in my original post you're quoting.

Let's assume that Sony does not want to sell consoles at a loss, which locks the minimum retail price at manufacturing cost. Retail price affects volumes: there is a significant difference between $399 and $419, for example. (And $409 is simply a dumb price, nobody goes with that.)

They're not going to do $415 or $409 that would be silly. Point was about hitting $399 and having room for bundles and various price cuts

Suppose that Sony could have squeezed the price to $399 with UHD BD, but with zero margin. It wouldn't matter a bit, how many more sales they got, because N times zero is still zero. If they sell 5 million UHD'less Pros with $5 margin, that's $25M. Much more than zero, isn't it?

If they somehow squeeze in UHD and break even then taking it out would save $15 per unit sold which adds up to a lot.

The possibility remains is that they may have done it to save money or they couldn't shave anymore off and it had to be cut loose. They might be able to add one in down the line. Other reasons exist to like pushing their own players or streaming.

 

[bubumiao]

lols

We can have 4K graphics now and not have to wait another year and pay less.

Scorpio is going to be expensive in order to render at native 4K. That's what I meant by overpowered (=higher cost to render at 4K).

Besides that, what will the real benefit be in waiting for that monster of a console?

That's what I was trying to say.

Not, "Its only flaw is it's too good."

 

[onQ123]

He specifically mentioned NPD which tracks NA sales.

Why do some people ask this question when NPD and North America is specifically what is being referenced?

No it wasn't there was a comma & he also mentioned the 50 million so how was it just about NPD?

 

[c0de]

We can have 4K graphics now and not have to wait another year and pay less.

You could have 4k graphics like two or three years ago.

 

[RenditMan]

There is too much information in this thread being tossed back and forth. Hard to keep track of what I wanted to say, but I'll mention this. The "not true 4k" argument is weak. The games that are 1440 or 1800 upscaled to 2160 are gonna look pretty damn good.

Checker board is a good thing. The Scorpio is going to be overpowered and that's essentially what you're going to end up paying for (if you buy one). I can't remember who said it (Cerney or someone), but that's what they were saying.

We've been playing games at lesser resolutions for years upscaled to 1080p. They don't have to be rendered in 4K to be good.

I'm not happy Sony didn't include the 4K Blu-ray player, but I don't usually buy physical movies anyways. I'm debating whether I'll even upgrade to Netflix's premium 4k offering (I suppose i will for a month just to check it out if nothing else). If Amazon's 4K content blows me away, well see.

I'll probably end up with a cheap 4K Blu-ray player or just grab an S.

I think a lot of it boils down to Sony wanting to push 4K TV's as well.

Scorpio won't be over powered but I do think that chasing native 4k is a waste of horse power.

I'd rather they copied the PS4 solution and used the horsepower on more fps or effects instead.

 

[onQ123]

I wonder if they will have any UHD Blu-ray players with Digital Bridge features at CES 2017