Ashley Judd calls out gaming industry in TEDtalk for hypocritical stance on GamerGate
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HueyFreeman
Banned
She's not wrong.
I feel like she probably isn't in the loop on the recent surge in quality, well written and rounded female protagonists though. 2017 is probably the best year on record, representation wise.
I feel like she probably isn't in the loop on the recent surge in quality, well written and rounded female protagonists though. 2017 is probably the best year on record, representation wise.
It's basically the video game version of "I don't see skin color".
Yeah. from a pragmatic standpoint, this is probably where the efforts should be prioritized. But like you say, it's possible to do both and it would work wonders to have both processes reinforce one another.
Easy to call out people when it's not your money or livelihood at risk. They're making the games the way they think will sell and keep them in business.
Please no fake quotes.
As I said, it's hard enough to police it on twitter and youtube where all you need to do is read a comment. Doing it in games is a whole different level in terms of resources since it's all voice and in the middle of long videos. They give gamers an option to selectively mute or mute everybody. There's a party system so you can add and play with non-toxic people.
1) You don't have to produce sexist and/or racist video games that exclude marginalized groups in order to make money. It's entirely possible to make money without shitting on marginalized groups. Until recently, GTA San Andreas was one of the best selling games in the GTA franchise. It's a (bigoted) myth that only a certain types of games with certain type of characters sell.
2) Please be aware that it's also implicit in your statement that the primary consumer demographic don't like marginalized groups, i.e. the assumption that they hold racist and sexist and homophobic beliefs. I don't know what groups you are intersect with, but wouldn't you be offended by the assumption by the games industry that you don't like the presence of women, people of color, LGBTQ, etc.?
It definitely is. Like, of course you don't care, you used to seeing people like you in this medium. I can't even make a decent looking black guy in most games with a character creator. Then the voices...No Male Shepard because the voice doesn't fit a black guy. Then set games tend to not have a black MC or even side characters really...
Yeah the context is always when a girl get lippy (annoys you) they deserve a bash........
When a man smacks a women she always deserved it....
Are you actually that blind to the issues?
SLHellbound
Banned
The game industry's collective silence on gamergate speaks volumes louder than anything else they have done or not done. The people who spoke out against GG are to be commended, but the general radio silence is cowardice verging on implicit support at a senior management level.
No, the voice for Shepard was just not something I could put to someone who I wanted to look like me. I have a deep voice, that high ass voice couldn't cut it
Aren't you familiar with the gaming industry's history with using sexual objectification of women to push their products to a certain demographic?
Yes, totally. You have no idea about the chilling effect it caused to the people (men & women) in the industry that I know, and with the rise of far-right ideology and fascism outside of games, we have even worse shit to deal with now.
Story and characterization are rarely first-class citizens in games and even when they are elevated to approximately that level they still crib heavily from genre fiction (or film or other games) and as such are filled with throwaway decisions (eg reiterating well-worn tropes) in order to emulate that genre or feel. The idea that these decisions are all thoroughly-researched and purely for economic reasons is both insulting to the intelligence of people who know something about the industry and also insulting to the creative folks who actually do have a vision they're trying to realize on its own merits.
Yeah it got out of hand. Worse still is how shitty Twitter is as a platform with no moderation which easily enabled the mess to fester.
Well yeah, but I think calling it maiming and dumping women for sport is extreme no? Pandering to male sexuality cringes me out, but do you think that it's limited to sexual objectification? Can this specific audience enjoy non-objectified females? I think the answer is a definite yes. Investors might find the idea too risky for their bottom line, so I think this needs to start with bigger games so that smaller games can follow suit. Perhaps the future is brighter for women in videogames.
I definitely agree that the audience enjoy "non-objectified women" (audience constructions are flawed and reliant on biases by the people who think that audiences want dumb bigoted shit), but we are talking about the fact that (sexualized) violence against women is or was a thing in video games, like maiming and dumping:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5i_RPr9DwMA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DInYaHVSLr8
Read:
Galactic Specter
Member
Her statement about games that have the player maim and dump women for sport sounded rather over the top as if she was referring to games that have you specifically kill or maim women as the main objective because they're women.
For those kind of games that exist, I'm pretty sure the developer doesn't make billions dollars off it as if it's some kind of hot commodity.
For those kind of games that exist, I'm pretty sure the developer doesn't make billions dollars off it as if it's some kind of hot commodity.
Also as Palmer luckey and other examples from silicon valley, tech and as a side consequence, the gaming industry is filled with people that really believe that stuff because of their limited diversity experience.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5i_RPr9DwMA
A very specific example is Dead Island's collector's edition bust that was literally a bloody maimed bikini torso. You can throw in all those examples that FF mentions as well, such as Hitman's marketing of dead white women, or one of the abhorrent 90's Nintendo ads.
Wow, I never even noticed that! I'm amazed how this slipped my radar. Lots of games still do this. Thanks for telling me
SenjutsuSage
Banned
What she said was inaccurate and highly exaggerated nonsense. Because she has spoken out for good causes that I, too, agree with, I can't call what is clearly a blatant attempt at wrongfully scapegoating an entire industry exactly what it is?
What she says is still hyperbolic bullshit. What she says is, in my view, not an accurate representation of the current games industry. It can be said that it's far more true of hollywood and the film industry than it is true about the games industry. My response is in no way a criticism of speaking out about sexism or harassment, especially in her personal life, but that does not give her a pass to make a wildly inaccurate statement regardless.
Zero apologies, folks. Take it or leave it.
1) It's possible. But if you're spending years developing a game, you're going to want every edge you can get. If they believe that means a white male lead will sell more copies then that's what they're going to make assuming the gender or race doesn't matter within the story.
My problem with examples like San Andreas and TLOU 2 is that these games can't really be grouped in with a Mirror's Edge that had Faith as the face of the game from the start.
I also think explicit racist and sexist parts in games are different than the absence of diverse leads. The former is far worse and deserves to be called out.
2) I think people just gravitate more towards characters they can identify with. I know if given the choice in a game I pick whatever character is most like me (Mass Effect, Dishonored 2, every character creator). Doesn't mean I won't play games with different leads (GR2 is paused as I type this) but I'm not the average consumer.
That's really all I'm going to say on it. I just think game companies get an unfair amount of hate. I'll continue reading responses.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Bugs is one of the worst movies I've ever seen. Thanks, Ashley. Can't remember exactly, but I think the plot involves a good looking male using drugs to exploit a confused female character.
Profiteering from a product that shows the exploitation of a woman while generalizing a whole industry for something similar makes it hard for me to understand her point.
Profiteering from a product that shows the exploitation of a woman while generalizing a whole industry for something similar makes it hard for me to understand her point.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I was grinning reading the OP ... until the very last sentence. Yikes. I guess she's not talking about what I thought she was (I thought she was criticizing the lack of confrontation against gamergate abuse)
No, I'm not interested in escalating a moral panic over gaming content. Actually I find it insulting that she'd conflate the topic of content in games with fighting the harmful abusiveness of Gamergate.
Gamergate is bad because it's people attacking and ruining the lives of feminists who critique games. But that doesn't mean we should then expect that feminist critics should get everything they prescribe for the gaming industry.
No, I'm not interested in escalating a moral panic over gaming content. Actually I find it insulting that she'd conflate the topic of content in games with fighting the harmful abusiveness of Gamergate.
Gamergate is bad because it's people attacking and ruining the lives of feminists who critique games. But that doesn't mean we should then expect that feminist critics should get everything they prescribe for the gaming industry.
.....Jesus Christ some of y'all need help
Using an insult to downplay an issue, while wholeheartedly missing the point.
I haven't seen such a unashamed case of mysogony in quite a while.
You used 4 sentences. 3 to say her opinion is shit. One to say film industry is worse, which implies the games industry has issues.
It is not that you are wrong, you are, you fully wasted everyone's time. You did not even attempt proper argumentation.
palpabl_purpura
Member
She's too ignorant to know gamergate is a fringe minority group and in no way represents the collective gaming community- not the casual, not the enthusiast, etc. This is what happens when outsiders are given a platform.
Even though the gaming community and industry has a sexism issue?
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Watch Bugs and say that.
...no, no. Don't do something as sadistic as watching that movie. Just take my word. It's like the exploitation/freebase crack-smoking version of Overboard.
But..But...she insulted our video games! We can't have someone do that! No matter how right she is!
SenjutsuSage
Banned
The nonsensical statement she makes describing the games industry isn't worthy of a longer argument.
Because you only care about that one line vs a 15 min speech.
Because that precise way of arguing completely encompasses why GG was allowed continue as far as they have.
'feminists said X about games and I wont stand for it, even if GG is bad'
It was just a joke don't think about it too hard
Mango Madness said:
None of that changes the fact that prostitutes are exclusively gendered as women. I never claimed that the prostitutes played a major role in the core of the game.
I think you are vastly overestimating the influence of video games on juvenile development when most people are two mouse clicks away from hardcore pornography and under constant involuntary exposure to a multibillion dollar entertainment, fashion and music industry. Please maintain a sense of proportionality in these matters.
While Cindy might not be a particularly tasteful portrayal of a female character, she shares a game where four of the main characters are also designed to exude youthful boyish sex appeal. Women have a right to not be insulted and objectified, but men have a right to be attracted to what they want to be attracted to, and you should find it as no surprise that male gamers are deeply insulted when you belittle and dismiss them for this.
All you complaining about how 1 women got treated in God of War, what about the countless men that got destroyed by Krato's hands? Do they not matter?
GTA as well, how many men die in the story sequences, what about the torture victim? Far worse than what happens to any women in GTA5.
Tomb Raider, Lara murders so many men in brutal ways, guess they don't count because they have a penis.
GTA as well, how many men die in the story sequences, what about the torture victim? Far worse than what happens to any women in GTA5.
Tomb Raider, Lara murders so many men in brutal ways, guess they don't count because they have a penis.
Playboy, edit that post cause I ain't said shit about this GTA shit
Lets not talk about problematic misogyny in video games, because misogyny is everywhere....
Or maybe on a video game forum we can talk about it in video games and the industry.
It's that women always have the same roles, while men get to be the hero far more often than the victim.
Modest Mauser
Member
Outside of the content of games themselves, I was disappointed in the relative silence of the industry while this thing was at its height.
M0nochromatic
Member
It's important to read her words and realize she's talking abstractly. She's not specifically calling out any one gamer, message board, developer, or publisher. Video games have the, somewhat unfair, link to internet cultures that music, movies, and books don't have. The industry has to contend with all kinds out there, and there's nothing wrong with one more voice calling for justice, even if that voice is somewhat vague and uninformed about who makes the choices in a developer publisher relationship.
Personally, I feel as if great strides have already been made in many parts of the industry. Reporting and banning in text and voice chat is common in the games I play and circles I play with. Indies have become the hotspot for engaging narratives that subvert or decline to use cliched, sexist tropes. Even that's slowly slipping into the Triple A space, judging by games like Watch Dogs 2. The worst offender mentioned in this thread, God of War, has changed radically in an attempt to leave its embarrassing past behind by becoming more like The Last of Us.
There's never been a better time to play video games.
Personally, I feel as if great strides have already been made in many parts of the industry. Reporting and banning in text and voice chat is common in the games I play and circles I play with. Indies have become the hotspot for engaging narratives that subvert or decline to use cliched, sexist tropes. Even that's slowly slipping into the Triple A space, judging by games like Watch Dogs 2. The worst offender mentioned in this thread, God of War, has changed radically in an attempt to leave its embarrassing past behind by becoming more like The Last of Us.
There's never been a better time to play video games.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
The male's genders aren't in mind when the scenes featuring their deaths are crafted, same for GTA, the jokes and stereotypes for men typically have nothing to do with the fact that they're men, while in GTAV the majority of jokes about women have something to do with their gender. Context, how does it work?
You don't have one. You just tell the world you are more angry at her than at sexism.
No No, context doesn't matter. Everything is in a vacuum
I mean it's only "safe" if you buy into the logic that the only thing keeping white men playing is their ability to play as white men (when in this scenario every other game must also be led by white men) and not the overall quality of the game itself outside of representation. And this is when you have plenty of demonstrations that non-white-males will play those games without self-representation, so that does not seem like a safe assumption. The "safe" bet would be just include a character creator and hire 4-5 voice actors as lead, since you'll win out in cost-benefit. Or just care more about writing and characterization so there's a lot of things different folks could attach themselves to. Development time is expensive but as we know from recent events voice acting isn't. Writing isn't either, in the grand scheme of things.