Callibretto
Member
it drop down when you're near tallneck. GG claimed they've fixed that though. we'll see
Horizon Zero Dawn - Preview Thread [Up: All Previews Live]
- Thread starter Kenzodielocke
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it drop down when you're near tallneck. GG claimed they've fixed that though. we'll see
Can't it be a combination of both? I loved figuring out ways to reach higher points in AC1 and Infamous. AC2 also had platforming dungeons thingy which I loved
Even in AC2 the challenge wasn't the timing of platforming, but figuring out how to get from A to B.
The more and more AC games progressed the easier the platforming become to compensate the fluidity in movement , upto a point that it started calling as "auto-platforming".
So to answer "Can't it be a combination of both?" yes it can , but the focus on movement will always be the main and thus easier the platforming will ever be , unless untill game is focused to punish you for making a wrong jump etc. Which i don't think any game does now days(Open world)
PLASTICA-MAN
Member
This section is from the Collector Edition unboxing video. Also, I didn't know the game had vertical platforming like Assassin's Creed games. Very Good!
But that also makes the traversal itself a boring task. I think the best open worlds are ones where the simple act of traversal is enjoyable. Stuff like Spider Man 2, Just Cause and Burnout Paradise are enjoyable even if you are mindlessly wondering the map without any real goals.
I understand the argument that Aloy grew up in this world and knows how to traverse it, so moving around the world should feel effortless to the player. Nevertheless, it removes a lot of tactility from the game. Say if there was a set of precarious looking platforms in your way, it might as well be a flat road if all the player is doing is holding forward and tapping X without any thought. Autfoplatforming just makes the world feel less tangible.
Comparing the old Tomb Raiders with the new ones is a good example. In the old games every jump made my stomach sink because there is a possibility of failure if I don't time and aim my jumps. In the new Tomb Raider Lara is thrown in far more dangerous "looking" environments but as a player I don't feel the danger because there is none.
Mirror's Edge Catalyst
And what is the consensus about the Open world aspect about the Game? I played only the first one , Also the game has some auto platforming , you just need to press contextualize buttons to make it happen.
Also the MEc is focused on the movement and the platforming aspect ,That is what is the game is all about, its not a best comparison here. you can't create two system for platforming and combat . if they make platforming challenging(and about that , what else you need to do instead of move forward and press X) than the combat will suffer due to it, and later is the main focus of the game. In my opinion.
Also , Different outfits.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
I kind of fucking hate difficult platforming in games so I hope it is auto-style outside of the dungeons.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
As long there are more outfits that show off her mid-riff and maybe some cleavage we are good.
This is bait.
Even though it's a little too floaty for me to really like it, the TR Reboot has a nice middle ground, be happy with something like that. I absolutely hate hard platforming in games with shitty jumping controls.
Has flashbacks of that shitty secret dungeon in FF15*
Yay, love me a good cape on a armour set.
Yeah, it wouldn't hurt to add some silly outfits even if they have shitty stats
Welcome to modern AAA gaming.Even MGSV was too serious compared to the old ones.
Can't be too goofy or tongue in cheek, we want grown up games for grown up people. Games have to be like films now after all.
The_Hitcher89
Member
Nice, I feared that there'd be like 5 outfits in the game, and they'd all have much the same stats
Would be great if there were special unique robot bosses like the 4 boats in Assassin's Creed VI: Black Flag, but that is almost certainly not part of the game. Shame that that kind of thing didn't really take off in open world games with RPG mechanics imo.
Would be great if there were special unique robot bosses like the 4 boats in Assassin's Creed VI: Black Flag, but that is almost certainly not part of the game. Shame that that kind of thing didn't really take off in open world games with RPG mechanics imo.
More_Badass
Member
Did we play different Metal Gears? MGS5 opens with you fighting a flaming demon guy and ghost girl and you escape his flaming horse on your own horse. MGS4 had you dodging biped mechs while a robo ninja fought them with swords and then fought an unkillable vampire guy
And considering Hardcore Henry and Deadpool came out last year, and a new Fast Furious is coming, the notion that "film = serious" seems like a broad generalization
The_Hitcher89
Member
MGSV felt like a game that was trying to be cool and ended up just being stupid, whereas the previous MGS games were trying to hit both marks. I have no justification for that, but its the impression I got.
I don't understand this comment, Dante and Bayonetta are meant to be unstoppable fighters than can beat monsters with ease, that doesn't mean you should be able to beat all your enemies by just holding on button.
Sonic the Hedgehog should be able to speed through every level with ease if you take the canon into account, but when you start off you have to take your time with platforming sections because you don't know where to jump and where not to.
Lara Croft is already an experienced explorer by the time the first game came out, yet it started out fairly difficult.
There's no reason you need to put effort in combat with Aloy but not with platforming. Bland traversal is one of the worst things about open world games. You can make it as pretty as you want, if you're spending all of that time just pressing forward, you're not playing a game.
It's a game, if you want Aloy to platform with speed, fluidity and grace, you need to develop that skill yourself.
I said Metal Gear 5, not Metal Gear 4. That was goofy in plenty of areas, and those were some of the best parts of the game.
All the MGSV things you mentioned were played straight. It was never called out for being goofy.
There were things in the gameplay that were kinda jokes (water pistol, blow up doll, portals, etc.) But the "plot" was stupid as shit, but didn't realise it. Skullface was arguably the most ridiculous villain in the series, and yet that was never called out. Meanwhile pretty much every other villain in the series has a few jokes attributed to them at this point.
I don't know, I feel games looking for a wider audience tend to avoid goofiness for the fear of alienating a mainstream audience, who want their games to be serious business, and be taken seriously.
Another example would be Tomb Raider, the original few were aimed at an adult audience yet clearly had goofy moments, the later ones also had cheeky banter and absurd situations here and there, very Jame Bond-ish. The most recent two taken themselves way too seriously, getting rid of all the flavour.
Yakuza 0 is a perfect example of telling a great, and serious story, while also being ridiculously goofy at the same time.
More_Badass
Member
Genre matters. Your examples are character action, platformer, and whatever the early Tomb Raiders were. The gameplay you mention is the core of those game
Would extensive button combos feel suited for Witcher or Arkham? Granular Prince of Persia/Mirrors Edge-style movement in Far Cry and Assassins Creed?
There's a difference between traversal/movement as a tool and traversal/movement as a means of challenge (for the lack of better wording).
The former is a means to an end, to reach a vantage point, to flank, to evade and avoid, etc. The goal isnt to move from point A to point B; it's to get to point B to do action C.
The latter makes the actual movement the central focus. Moving from A to B, navigating a hazardous gauntlet, is the challenge.
The examples I gave were regarding consistency between the characters skill in the plot and the characters skill in the game. The poster I replied to said that Aloy was already good at traversal stuff in the story so it should be easy in the game, which is a flawed argument.
While I don't like the combat in Arkham, I feel like the combat is appropriate for that type of game. Once you've mastered the combat, you do feel very much like Batman! Witcher is a bad example because you spend quite a bit of time fighting, so it needs decent combat. Rather than kinda shit combat.
Regarding your point on genres.
In an open world you'll spend a lot of time going from A to B, it needs an action C, if there's no fun in it, its just hours of fluff. It's one of the things I hated about MGSV and FFXV. A giant open world and most of the time all you did was dash... every now and then there were enemies and outposts but these were always easy enemies that were more of a chore to get through than anything else, mostly due to lack of enemy variety... another problem with open world games. The larger your game is, the most varied your enemies need to be to keep it interesting.
This is also why I tell people they're being stupid for thinking FF7:Remake will be the same size and length as the original game. Traversal will take up so much more time because it will be done to scale.
The biggest flaws in open world WRPG is that they forget that traversal requires gameplay too, which is pretty much what Tomb Raider was about. Like, I get it, it's hard to do good, complex level design for a massive game. But hey, that's pretty much why open world games are usually criticised for being "barren" and flawed.
This is my main concern for Zelda too, hopefully the 120 shrines and hidden areas should help break it up.
Nightengale
Member
The issue with "bland traversal" in games isn't that devs aren't capable of making engaging traversal mechanics. It's how to blend engaging traversal mechanics seamlessly with a combat system that demands your constant movement, attention and free-flow.
In a combat bowl, I would imagine that the game's moment-to-moment expects Aloy to constantly move around, aim, change weapons, craft, shoot. And movement includes platforming and traversal, as there will be combat in areas of different elevation, etc.
In those situations, it'd be ill-designed to have a set of traversal mechanics that is anti-thesis to how the game designs the combat, which is accessible, fluid and expects the player to not be frustrated by the need to move around and shift perspectives a lot.
Bland traversal means easy traversal, and easy traversal is often a necessary evil in designing games that has a lot of fluidity in movement, because you don't want the player to suddenly shift attention to having to engage in challenging traversal while evading bullet fire.
It's why something like Uncharted will always struggle to have "engaging traversal', because core of the game's combat design is "traversal gunplay" and personally I think it's quite challenging to create a vertical combat bowl that involves a lot of climbing that expects the climbing to be dynamic, while retain the speed and fluidity of a fast-paced third person shooter.
I'm not saying it's right. There must be a way to incorporate better traversal design without sacrificing fast-paced gunplay. But as it is, traditional game design approach often sacrifice traversal because it's challenging to blend those two together well.
Games that has challenging and engaging traversal mechanics... rarely do so while also making them part of a combat situation. The way a game controls must be consistent across different facets of the game, so it's not really easy to balance that.
In a combat bowl, I would imagine that the game's moment-to-moment expects Aloy to constantly move around, aim, change weapons, craft, shoot. And movement includes platforming and traversal, as there will be combat in areas of different elevation, etc.
In those situations, it'd be ill-designed to have a set of traversal mechanics that is anti-thesis to how the game designs the combat, which is accessible, fluid and expects the player to not be frustrated by the need to move around and shift perspectives a lot.
Bland traversal means easy traversal, and easy traversal is often a necessary evil in designing games that has a lot of fluidity in movement, because you don't want the player to suddenly shift attention to having to engage in challenging traversal while evading bullet fire.
It's why something like Uncharted will always struggle to have "engaging traversal', because core of the game's combat design is "traversal gunplay" and personally I think it's quite challenging to create a vertical combat bowl that involves a lot of climbing that expects the climbing to be dynamic, while retain the speed and fluidity of a fast-paced third person shooter.
I'm not saying it's right. There must be a way to incorporate better traversal design without sacrificing fast-paced gunplay. But as it is, traditional game design approach often sacrifice traversal because it's challenging to blend those two together well.
Games that has challenging and engaging traversal mechanics... rarely do so while also making them part of a combat situation. The way a game controls must be consistent across different facets of the game, so it's not really easy to balance that.
Simple Soul
Member
What are some examples of fun and challenging platforming in a triple-A game? I don't think I've ever experienced it in the big budget ones.
wapplew
Member
The Last Guardian?
Nightengale
Member
It's not "challenging", but I'd say... Titanfall 2?
Even then, it backs my point because during the campaign, by and large all the "platforming puzzle part" of the game have no enemies to disrupt your need to focus and do the jumps.
When enemies are around the game puts you in a space where you don't need to have the same level of platforming focus as opposed to when there are no enemies.
More_Badass
Member
Gravity Rush 2 is probably the poster child for awesome traversal in an open world
But personally I love exploring in open worlds, I love just walking, taking in the sights and vistas, seeing a place on the horizon grow closer, I've walked across GTA V, RDR, Skyrim, Witcher 3, go on treks in random directions in Minecraft, etc.
Sadly most people arent going to play $60 for a straight-up platformer outside of Mario and the like
But personally I love exploring in open worlds, I love just walking, taking in the sights and vistas, seeing a place on the horizon grow closer, I've walked across GTA V, RDR, Skyrim, Witcher 3, go on treks in random directions in Minecraft, etc.
Mirrors Edge. The Last Guardian. Parts of Titanfall 2. Nintendo's games
Sadly most people arent going to play $60 for a straight-up platformer outside of Mario and the like
Ok , so you are the one who is commenting this "No armor bikini? No swimsuit? I'm disappointed." on youtube, you should be ashamed of your deeds
and last guardian's platforming fun and challenging don't go well in same sentence.
Nightengale
Member
I would like to extend the question, is there any AAA game that has challenging traversal mechanics that are often mixed into its combat/encounter design as well?
Even for the examples you cited, a lot of them are "oh, enemies are conveniently not here at all when I need to suddenly start executing all these traversal tricks" and will shift to "oh, enemies here now, but all flat ground and I don't need to use my traversal skills to deal with them."
AyraSutoraifu
Member
Did that too. Walking around the map of RDR. Took me two days. Camping at night, having a beer for myself. See if i find any hidden paths or buildings.
Thought i was the only one
3D platforming in general has always been difficult to perfect. Usually the best ones end up using fixed cameras or are quite lenient with their platforming.
Tomb Raider OG managed to pull it off because Lara's runs and jumps were very strictly defined, it was easier to gauge her movement. Things got more finicky when she lost her tank movement but it was still ok.
This is actually one of the reasons why I feel Zelda and Horizon comparisons are massively flawed. The former clearly has a focus on exploration and enjoying the open world, while breaking it up with small puzzles and set-pieces. While you wont be platforming, you'll be doing physics based puzzles, taking on enemies on the overworld that are genuine bosses, and trying to find secret areas. The latter, from what I can tell, is more about progressing the story and taking down monsters, this works with monster hunter because the world is actually pretty small. However the focus doesn't seem to be the open world itself, which seems to just be there for the sake of being impressive/realistic in terms of scale.
More_Badass
Member
First Mirrors Edge kind of did that, but was mainly focused on fleeing rather than fighting. Taking down and dodging enemies while traversing through levels.The combat focused sections were like you say, however
But as you said, it would be hard to focus on precise jumps and aimed leaps while also aiming weapons, fighting enemies, managing weapons, and so on
I haven't played Titanfall but this sounds like a balance that Horizon, and openworld games, should aim for. And I need to make it clear that I'm not saying Horizon needs to be a full on platformer, it just needs more than... practically nothing. We've seen in the clips that there are plenty of areas where there are no monsters and she's just auto-jumping from one place to another.
Sure, I'm not saying people aren't allowed to like what they like. Horizon is a beautiful game and I can understand wanting to just take it in. But most people the game is aiming for don't have time to spend an hour walking around, not making any progress in the game at all.
Sunset Overdrive is very fun when it comes to traversal and platforming. Don't remember it being challenging tho.
The Last Guardian can be challenging when it comes to platforming.
The best thing is, on my Pro with a 1080p TV the game will practically run the full game in bullshot mode.
Just Cause series has a fairly substantial combat and traversal system. There are encounters in the game where you have to string together movement and shooting to keep up with the large scale battles with enemies all over the place.
Titanfall 2 had the tutorial stage at the very start where you were expected to shoot and traverse simultaneously to succeed. There is also the level where you are on a factory line and the level is changing and shifting all around you. Once again you are expected to platform and fight simultaneously to succeed.
This is a Flawed argument, The Titanfall and mirror edge have something in common which plays major part in the platforming i.e. tight spaced walled Environment , which is not common with horizon or other Open world games, and Aiming for that will result in small hub areas which really undermines the whole Open world idea.
They are two different genre ,you just can't bland something like that without effecting the other game systems.
What does auto-jumping means in this context , what else she will do exactly? its not like you have hit a button and just watching her go from point A to point B.
The best thing is, on my Pro with a 1080p TV the game will practically run the full game in bullshot mode.
What if they forced you to play in 1080p mode only like some other games do?
PLASTICA-MAN
Member
The PS4 PRO version is the least shown in all the previews, gameplays and trailers. Do they fear that people will think that the regular PS4 version doesn't live up to expectations that is why they keep mostly showing it in order to reassure them?
LastMinuteHero
Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_u-F-m1on4
GG devs message to the korean audience. Really hope this game is a success for them. Totally unrelated but I remember the cheers they got when they demoed the game to the audience at tgs 2015. Really have come a long way.
GG devs message to the korean audience. Really hope this game is a success for them. Totally unrelated but I remember the cheers they got when they demoed the game to the audience at tgs 2015. Really have come a long way.
That is exactly what I think, also probably they are proud on what they achieved on the regular PS4 (as they should be) and want to show it off.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
We had multiple people in here that thought most of it was Pro footage. They have nothing to fear.
PLASTICA-MAN
Member
I remember when the PS4 PRO was still in Neo phase (just a rumor) it didn't stop some to claim that last year's E3 footage was PS4 PRO footage. The same happened for GOW and other games.
That's why they had to make a point that it is not.
LastMinuteHero
Member
And people still claimed that after shuhei reassured that all games at e3 were on og ps4
StrongBlackVine
Banned
Callibretto
Member
Horizon has focus on exploration too, ps access video showed a random cave (not cauldron) that lead to underground water cavern and lead to very scifi hideout where you can learn some lore and puzzles.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
Because 98 percent of PS4 owners have the base version and that is who they should be catering too.
Magic Mushroom
Member
Crackdown and Sunset Overdrive as well.