'Stop Giving Evil Characters Brown Skin'
- Thread starter Shaanyboi
- Start date
How on earth is this thread not just a bunch of people agreeing?
I can't even tell what you're trying to say, but based on the use of the word retarded I assume it's wrong.
The idea that "culture" makes something ok or right is often leaned on by lazy people unwilling to look at things critically.
I can't even tell what you're trying to say, but based on the use of the word retarded I assume it's wrong.
The idea that "culture" makes something ok or right is often leaned on by lazy people unwilling to look at things critically.
spazchicken
Member
That would be impossible because they would never have a black protagonist, not even a mixed black one. Not in a million years.
Let's also not forget that he and his son were the last of their kind on the planet.
Him being a father just further outs him as the odd man in the group.
The game changes her skin tone immediately to reinforce a change in her status, importance, and to almost diefy her. Its not like she stayed out of the sun for afew weeks.
Her skin is darkened still and remains that similar tone across games until Hyrule Warriors. Though I think she's darker in the Smash games.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
Scar is clearly black. Did you hear the way he rode that beat in be prepared????
Tekken is an example that has evil versions of characters that aren't just lazy darker skin models that rely on shitty tropes and stereotypes.
Jin:
Devil Jin:
See, you can denote evil nature without relying on bad stereotypes.
Yeah, Tekken does it well if not over the top imo. Like straight up devil lol.
yanipheonu
Member
I mean is it even possible they just wanted to show she lost her tan after being stuck in a stone room for a while and didn't want to make two seperate character models of Zelda?
I just want to stress that a racial component is certainly a possible reading, but is not the only possible reading of the situation. To pretend it's otherwise might be too reductionist when there are far more egregious examples to be looking at.
Choose your battles.
Hashmal_Bringer_of_Order
Member
Pretty much. Without checking i can only remember RE5 as a game with prominent black villains.
Funyarinpa
Member
And does that 100% rule out any possibility of using light and dark as symbolism, assuming that the game properly contextualizes the skin color change?
I think that a game can still be not racist without clarifying that (I'd say that the white->good relationship is quite universal but feel free to correct me on that) since I think that it'd be implied.
I can see how it could be interpreted as racist subtext though.
Tekken is an example that has evil versions of characters that aren't just lazy darker skin models that rely on shitty tropes and stereotypes.
Jin:
Devil Jin:
See, you can denote evil nature without relying on bad stereotypes.
That or otherwise go for Purple like they did with Kazuya.
This is such a bad argument. Years of development goes into video games. Nintendo takes how they treat the Mario and Zelda franchise VERY seriously. They meticulously decide every aspect of the games because it is their key brands. Each decision made is done with intent and purpose. Them changing Tetra into Zelda with a change in her skin tone was done with mindfulness. It didn't come down to whether or not they wanted multiple character models of Zelda. We're talking about a change in skin texture color here.
?
Her transformation from Tetra to Zelda is instant.
They wanted to illustrate her ascension to 'Zelda' and stuck to a paler depiction. They could have easily done the same with a change in hairstyle, makeup and clothing without needing to remove the tan, but it's evident the designers still associated skin color with social status.
I'd say that excuse is a helluva reach. Its not like Link gets a notable tan after being out in the sun for 30+ of gameplay.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Is there any reason at all why a character needs to have darker skin to represent being evil? Everyone wants to explain it away but why the fuck do you need stuff like Hyrule Warriors or Kingdom hearts? What benefit does that serve anyone?
What battle? You think it's hard to call this and other examples out? It's literally "we wanted Zelda to be pure and white". There is literally no other interpretation here. There is no logical reason why this character needed this to happen.
People talking about losing a tan. You don't lose a tan in 30 seconds. There isn't even an implication in Wind Waker that her skin wasn't naturally dark.
What battle? You think it's hard to call this and other examples out? It's literally "we wanted Zelda to be pure and white". There is literally no other interpretation here. There is no logical reason why this character needed this to happen.
People talking about losing a tan. You don't lose a tan in 30 seconds. There isn't even an implication in Wind Waker that her skin wasn't naturally dark.
WrenchNinja
Member
Christ
Yea, like I hear stuff like that, or that Zelda's skin color changed because princesses are known for being sheltered and overprotected in their castles, so of course her skin would become pale again, etc. etc.
And I'm like... Sure.
Eh, I can see it as a thoughtless decision, just going with the trope rather than one that was purposefully meant to tear down the idea of a princess having darker skin. It speaks to the insidious nature of the idea, like people in this thread recognizing the association of darker skin = bad but not following through to realise how it's fucked for anyone who has dark skin.
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
Have you ever considered why white/light has long been symbolic of goodness and black/dark has been symbolic of evil?
I said they did it with intent, not insideous intent. I guarantee you that people at Nintendo thought about whether Zelda should keep her dark tan and decided no. They likely made her white because they buy into the same subtle bullshit that pervades our society that white = purity and dark skin symbolizes evil. They don't have to be intentionally trying to pass that message. But I guarantee that Zelda's skin tone was decided with intent, not just as a sort of happenstance.
Tinfoilhatsron
Banned
Oh my sweet summer child. I don't whether to laugh at you or just feel pity.
petran79
Banned
Magic transformation does also include make-up it seems
I don't think "evil" was a reason they removed her tan as she's not an evil character. In this case it is much more likely she is no longer working outdoors and wouldn't have a tan, more akin to classism.
Days like these...
Have a Blessed Day
So people who want to tear down the stereotype that so negatively affects POC are racist!? What in the actual fuck?
yanipheonu
Member
Actually, how have other games handled tanning? Just wonder what history there is, I'd assume there's at least one game out there with real-time tanning skin.
Kinda weird BOTW didn't have that given the level of detail of Link's reaction to environment. Maybe BOTW Link doesn't tan very well.
Kinda weird BOTW didn't have that given the level of detail of Link's reaction to environment. Maybe BOTW Link doesn't tan very well.
SilverArrow20XX
Walks in the Light of the Crystal
It's a daintification with Tetra. The transformation removed all of her roughness, including her sun tan. You'll also notice she suddenly starts using dainty body language too.
Daphnes changed her to resemble what she would have if she grew up a princess. It's not that hard to understand.
Daphnes changed her to resemble what she would have if she grew up a princess. It's not that hard to understand.
Stormblessed
Member
Making characters darker is a way of coding them as bad in the same way giving them a lisp, effete manner or a British accent is. It seems to be adhered to now mostly out of inertia - people know these short-hands, so they keep being used. There is probably a racist root if you go far enough back, but I'd hazard it's more thoughtlessness or laziness these days.
This probably has more to do with how bad human sight is in low light as well as our dependence on (and historical worship of) the sun.
Edit: It occurs to me that The Lion King uses all three of the ones I mentioned with Scar (who is also darker than the other lions), which shows that it works with non-human characters also.
This probably has more to do with how bad human sight is in low light as well as our dependence on (and historical worship of) the sun.
Edit: It occurs to me that The Lion King uses all three of the ones I mentioned with Scar (who is also darker than the other lions), which shows that it works with non-human characters also.
No one on this thread was responsible for making the game in question so why are we waving arguing about it? And imo tanned Tetra still seems Caucasian so it's rather a moot point.
staticneuron
Member
You just implied a tanned white person would look weird if she went into a dress with the tan. As if Zelda sans tan, is the only one depiction people can handle. lol.
Well of course, everything that isn't naturally formed comes about from a decision by someone. I'm just wary of drawing a direction connection and believing it that designer thought it was a meaningful decision since it's kinda a moot point. It could have been a bizarre situation where they had textured Zelda before they made the decision to give Tetra a tan and they just didn't update it. That doesn't change the implications of the end result and that they were fine with it.
I guess I'm just not a fan of Tetra/Zelda transformation being the example in the thread when it works more as a symptom of the larger problem.
Read what you wrote, you're saying that having darker skin ("roughness") is unbecoming of a princess. That is exactly the problem and I doubt you actually believe this.
I imagine that's because the fear of the night and darkness is as old as time.
A princess wouldn't have worked all her life on a ship, exposed to the sun, so if the idea was to make her as if she had grown up as princess it makes sense that the tan disappears.
staticneuron
Member
And there it goes
Light and dark in terms of clothing, sure. How about literal light versus absence of light. But changing skin tone to reflect that is lazy and it is NOT an inherent view outside of people who were actually racist and/or bigoted against class.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Is there definitive proof Tetra has a tan and no just dark skin? I played Wind Waker, I don't remember them being like "nice tan Tetra"
Yeah, like does the King have a tan or is just dark skinned.
I mean, he is royalty, right? Royalty doesn't have tans and/or dark skin apparently.
Well yeah. Its not what i'd do but i think its the justiication Nintendo would use.
Personally i think changing skintone was dumb and i liked that version less than tetra's base design (she switches back at the end right?) i saw some of the edits people did but i'd probably edit the colors of the dress too to really balance out the design.
Hey here's one I just remembered: wasnt Hilda, the dark world zelda from link between worlds, light skinned?
Hmmmm...curious how many interviews if any have talked about this.
I wonder how much of it is more tied to cultural attitudes of delinquents dying their hair and getting tans (also commonly associated with yakuza) to stand out from conformaty of society, rather than the creators viewing these characters as black people or not.
Thats something i didnt think of until now and I'm not sure how much its been in the thread, but I think the delinquency element in japanese culture might be part of that for some of these characters (and is something that doesnt really exist anywhere else)
ScientificPizza
Banned
What? Becuse none of us are creators that means we shouldn't employ any critical thinking?
This thread isn't just about Zelda
It didn't start because of skin colors tbf.
I'm not a fan of in-universe justifications since they are not some hardfast rules the designers couldn't change, especially when we're talking about magically transformations but this doesn't really follow through. Why does Zelda need the appearance of someone who never went out in the Sun? She's not putting it up as a facade to convince someone else in the game and it's not like she loses her memory as Tetra because the magic that transformed her BTTF'd her past. She's still the same person.
Yeah, it's clear that the King and Tetra have a similar skin tone, so it's odd to think it might be a tan.
Unless people want to say the King's ghost got a tan.
Yeah, she switches back at the end of the game. From then on she's tanned Tetra for the remainder of the series.
And yeah, Hilda is white. She's like a goth version of Zelda who's depressed a lot, and talks a lot.
Just pointing out that it being "unbecoming" isn't the reason why a princess wouldn't have a tan. And while she doesn't lose her memories aren't her mannerisms quite different from Tetra?
snow in jamaica
Member
This thread is fucking unreal.
My favorite part is the amount of people who can't even read the title.
Only at first because of confusion (She was clearly out of it when she found out she's Princess Zelda). She's still her snarky self when you see her at the top of Ganon's Tower. (The only other time you see her in Wind Waker)
The person was saying that her darker skin was part of her roughness and princesses don't have that roughness. Or to put it another way, she was purified and part of the process was getting lighter skin. That's exactly the sinister thinking that fuels skin bleach markets in places like India by trying to push the idea that darker skin is a layer of filth to be removed.
As for her mannerism, it's been a while since I played WW but IIRC she just remembers her ancestry and she doesn't do much besides stay out of sight until the final battle.
snow in jamaica
Member
It doesn't matter if it's contextualized or if it was made with pure obliviousness. "Brown = bad" is not a connotation worth making.