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[Nanashrew]

Yet people seem to be bending over backwards to justify it instead of simply saying "yeah that's shitty"

I mean, I already conceded on all that and agree that it is.

I was being pedantic about the king being the ancestor and not the father and Tetra's only known parent passed away before the game events since so much information is flying around.

It's also true that Nintendo will not even lower case Toad for a pun on Twitter when they trolled Polygon. They can be incredibly strict sticking to the brand.

 

[ZdkDzk]

I was just pointing out her nearest direct relative that we see a lot of. Her ancestor in OOT also had pale skin, and her mother also had somewhat pale skin as seen in her portrait. All evidence points to her having naturally pale skin.

This goes back to what I was talking about before with standards of beauty. The king is allowed to look seasoned because he is a man and not a dainty princess.

There's a difference between a career pirate who is always at sea, and someone who lives on the beach. Yes, realistically, Link should be more tan. As a career adventurer, he should be more tan in all of the games really. I'm just explaining why the princessification of Tetra made her paler though. It's the same reason she starts putting her hand to her heart and constantly making worried expressions and drops her aggressive body language.

That is not her dad. That is a King from the time of old Hyrule where Zelda, his daughter, was white as a sheet.

The king sat at the bottom of the ocean for 100 years, is his darker skin also a tan? The fact that Tetra's mom (who was also a pirate) has dark skin that's lighter than her daughter's makes the whole "it was a tan" thing really suspect.

Factor in that Tetra as Zelda has the one of (if not the) lightest complexions of all the characters in WW and that her tan returns in the epilogue cutscene, and I really don't buy her darker skin tone being a tan. It makes sense for explaining away her transformation but clashes with everything else about her background and the ending itself.

 

[LotusHD]

Who are you even responding to? What are you even responding to? Name a single person in here that mentioned "everything would be destroyed" in relation to this. Name a single person that even said "I wouldn't want a tanned Zelda"

Well, one person did say it'd be weird if her skin stayed tanned when wearing her dress instead of it turning whiter.

 

[Salty Rice]

Well, one person did say it'd be weird if her skin stayed tanned when wearing her dress instead of it turning whiter.

Because either a good tan or too much make up. Both is a no go.

 

[ZdkDzk]

All i want to know is why is Sheik's situation fine but Tetra not?

Zelda turns into a tanned ninja with red eyes and in the end of the game she is pale white again and a princess.

If that case is fine then Tetra's case is aswell unless someone could give me a solid explanation why in Sheik's case it's okay.

Edit: it's probably magic and not really a real world explaination sure it's kinda dumb but it's a video game.

Because Sheik is an explicite disguise that comes with short hair, pecs, and presumably a different voice. The skin tone is incidental to her taking on the identity of a Sheika clan member and isn't easily inferable to have any sort of implied meaning, god or bad IMO.

Tetra just turns snow white with makeup because her great-great-grandma was a princess who was also snow white with makeup. There's not even an in universe explanation given in game. She just has lighter skin now because she's a princess, and everyone assumes it was a tan because the alternative looks really bad.

 

[Shaanyboi]

I feel like this conversation needs to be brought back to the point behind this thread before it becomes centered on a sole iteration of Zelda.

The reason Tetra is being brought up at all is because her change to Zelda and the inarguable lightening of her skin coincides with a twist that places importance on her status, class, and now deified role in the story. No matter which way you cut it, whether it be the sudden loss of her presumed "working class tan", or her equally sudden regaining of it for the game's finale, a distinction is made that her royal form is inherently more fairer skinned versus her more brash pirate self. This same thing happens with Sheik in OOT but to a less obvious degree.

Whether intentional or not, status is then being correlated with skin-color.

On the reverse, examples in which evil characters or dopplegangers are then intentionally darkened in their complexion, a similar moral judgement is being suggested and played upon. Arguments of "well no duh, darkness = bad!" are willfully ignoring one thing;

Culturally-ingrained thematic and moral associations with light and dark should in no way be relevant to skin pigmentation.

Lighting, costume design, staging, sound design, shape, body-language.... these are all tools designers and storytellers have at their disposal to differentiate between a good character and bad character on a purely visual level. But when the choice is made that darkening or lightening natural skin pigmentation and hair color to telegraph emotional worth, that's when you're fucking up.

I will repeat...

This isn't a plainly obvious debate about games saying "white person=good, black person=bad," or even the reverse. This is about games saying "white person=good, darker skinned white person=bad." This is about games saying "light-skinned black person=good, darker skinned black person=bad."

Because no matter which way you cut it, the darker skinned individual is being sold as the lesser, and the lighter skinned, the superior

This isn't about skin-color in character design by happenstance. This is about deliberate design choices that associate morality with skin tone, even among characters of the same race. This is not about Darth Vader wearing black.

 

[Antiwhippy]

Yeah, it's clear that the King and Tetra have a similar skin tone, so it's odd to think it might be a tan.

Unless people want to say the King's ghost got a tan.

Haha Jesus.

People still want to defend this?

 

[Nanashrew]

Because Sheik is an explicite disguise that comes with short hair, pecs, and presumably a different voice. The skin tone is incidental to her taking on the identity of a Sheika clan member and isn't easily inferable to have any sort of implied meaning, god or bad IMO.

Tetra just turns snow white with makeup because her great-great-grandma was a princess who was also snow white with makeup. There's not even an in universe explanation given in game. She just has lighter skin now because she's a princess, and everyone assumes it was a tan because the alternative looks really bad.

This goes with Nintendo's strict branding brought up earlier.

Tetra is essentially Sheik transforming into Zelda and doesn't really go off-brand since she has transformed before in the past. It's just a reuse of a trope from a past title. An issue of the Zelda series in the use of tropes of their most successful title, OoT.

Sheik would not be any better in this situation.

 

[Salty Rice]

Haha Jesus.

People still want to defend this?

Sure. Artistic choice to highlight more his white beard.

I think someone should just ask Miyamoto and end this madness about who is tanned and who has which ethnicity in the Zelda lore.

Zelda timeline got a lot deeper. Hope he doesnt retcon it again and splits it up again from the point when Zelda was too long in the sun or when she failed to do so and stayed pale.

 

[SilverArrow20XX]

The king sat at the bottom of the ocean for 100 years, is his darker skin also a tan? The fact that Tetra's mom (who was also a pirate) has dark skin that's lighter than her daughter's makes the whole "it was a tan" thing really suspect.

Factor in that Tetra as Zelda has the one of (if not the) lightest complexions of all the characters in WW and that her tan returns in the epilogue cutscene, and I really don't buy her darker skin tone being a tan. It makes sense for explaining away her transformation but clashes with everything else about her background and the ending itself.

The King is a ghost. He wouldn't get pale under the water. His daughter also looks just like Tetra as Zelda. Super pale. The transformation mas a magic glamor I think (similar to what OOT Zelda casts on herself to look like Sheik) to show her lineage. She in reality, still looked like Tetra, which is why she's back to herself afterwards.

Tetra also already had a Zelda design going into the game too. It's not like they created a dark Zelda, then later decided to white wash her 3/4 of the way through. She always had both designs.

Her nearest direct relative is her mom in a sepia-toned photo. And her only other ancestor is the King, who has notably darker skin than her Zelda form.

Nearest relative that has a lot of screentime I said. Also, all Zeldas in the series are direct ancestors or descendants of her (assuming same timeline I guess). Including that very King's daughter, who is incredibly pale.

 

[Nanashrew]

Sure. Artistic choice to highlight more his white beard.

I think someone should just ask Miyamoto and end this madness about who is tanned and who has which ethnicity in the Zelda lore.

Zelda timeline got a lot deeper. Hope he doesnt retcon it again and splits it up again from the point when Zelda was too long in the sun or when she failed to do so and stayed pale.

Miyamoto doesn't work on the series anymore and hasn't for a long time. Aonuma is the producer of the series now and would be the one to ask (and because he Directed WW). Would be interesting to hear what he has to say though. He's generally more receptive to fans than most any developer at Nintendo.

 

[Prof. Bathtub]

I probably shouldn't wade into this discussion, since it's somewhat beside the topic (that is, nobody here is saying that Tetra is evil; by most indications a harmless cartoon pirate.) I just find it interesting how WW Zelda ignites so much debate over her degree of "Tetra-ness", considering how vague the game is about the details. Is her personality altered, or is she just stunned? Is she tanned or not? I'd say the conception of proper princess=untanned is on the king, whom the story treats as living in the past (with the notions that go with it), though that's an in-universe explanation of course, and insufficient for rectifying larger unfortunate trends.

In regards to the king, it's hard to say if it's an indication of a tan, normal tone, or just a signifier of age/weatheredness. Other characters have a similar tone not shared with their relatives, such as Orca and Link's Grandmother.

 

[RagnarokX]

I feel like this conversation needs to be brought back to the point behind this thread before it becomes centered on a sole iteration of Zelda.

The reason Tetra is being brought up at all is because her change to Zelda and the inarguable lightening of her skin coincides with a twist that places importance on her status, class, and now deified role in the story. No matter which way you cut it, whether it be the sudden loss of her presumed "working class tan", or her equally sudden regaining of it for the game's finale, a distinction is made that her royal form is inherently more fairer skinned versus her more brash pirate self. This same thing happens with Sheik in OOT but to a less obvious degree.

Whether intentional or not, status is then being correlated with skin-color.

On the reverse, examples in which evil characters or dopplegangers are then intentionally darkened in their complexion, a similar moral judgement is being suggested and played upon. Arguments of "well no duh, darkness = bad!" are willfully ignoring one thing;

Culturally-ingrained thematic and moral associations with light and dark should in no way be relevant to skin pigmentation.

Lighting, costume design, staging, sound design, shape, body-language.... these are all tools designers and storytellers have at their disposal to differentiate between a good character and bad character on a purely visual level. But when the choice is made that darkening or lightening natural skin pigmentation and hair color to telegraph emotional worth, that's when you're fucking up.

I will repeat...

This isn't a plainly obvious debate about games saying "white person=good, black person=bad," or even the reverse. This is about games saying "white person=good, darker skinned white person=bad." This is about games saying "light-skinned black person=good, darker skinned black person=bad."

Because no matter which way you cut it, the darker skinned individual is being sold as the lesser, and the lighter skinned, the superior

This isn't about skin-color in character design by happenstance. This is about deliberate design choices that associate morality with skin tone, even among characters of the same race. This is not about Darth Vader wearing black.

But it's not making such a value judgement. All it says is that since a Princess is much less likely to receive a lot of direct sunlight her skin would be paler. Both Tetra and Zelda are presented as good, as they are the same person, and Zelda doesn't cease being Zelda when she reverts to Tetra. If anything her Zelda form uses the negative qualities of that whiteness to convey how vulnerable she is at that point in the game, with her identity revealed forcing her to go into hiding. It's also very likely she's wearing copious amounts of white makeup.

 

[renzolama]

I think there's a compelling discussion of popular fictional narrative here that ties historical selection of white protagonists to simplistic representations of conflict vs "other" where "other" is reliant on physical characteristics such as skin tone to emphasize the difference to the average viewer. That being said, I sincerely doubt that the historical choice of dark skin for antagonists (at least for the past fifty years) is an explicit choice to associate it with evil, rather it's a byproduct of choosing consistently white/light protagonists and then relying on an obvious visual contrast to convey and reinforce the difference between the good/bad guy to the average viewer.

Personally I think OP and the tweet author would have better served their point by phrasing the argument as "see how this stereotype negatively affects this racial group" rather than "see how this stereotype is intentionally targeted to harm this racial group." The latter may not actually be the intended message of either party, I could certainly be misinterpreting it (maybe even due to my own defensive bias?), but I think that choosing "brown" skin vs "dark" skin in the tweet and linking the Clark Doll experiments in OP charges the discussion with US racial politics in a way that sets up a defensive response from the average reader and distracts from (what could be) larger questions about who our popular heroes/villians are and how we define the difference between them.

Edit: I don't mean to imply any criticism/dismissal of the significance of the point the tweet author / OP is making. It's obviously generated a lot of topical discussion that is an overall net gain for awareness.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

The reason Tetra is being brought up at all is because her change to Zelda and the inarguable lightening of her skin coincides with a twist that places importance on her status, class, and now deified role in the story. No matter which way you cut it, whether it be the sudden loss of her presumed "working class tan", or her equally sudden regaining of it for the game's finale, a distinction is made that her royal form is inherently more fairer skinned versus her more brash pirate self. This same thing happens with Sheik in OOT but to a less obvious degree.

I will repeat...

This isn't a plainly obvious debate about games saying "white person=good, black person=bad," or even the reverse. This is about games saying "white person=good, darker skinned white person=bad." This is about games saying "light-skinned black person=good, darker skinned black person=bad."

Because no matter which way you cut it, the darker skinned individual is being sold as the lesser, and the lighter skinned, the superior

You first make the universal assumption that princess = good and pirate = bad, as if that's some universal, accepted truth that isn't subverted on numerous occasions as well as in the game itself (if Tetra is bad, why would the hero, Link, associate with her?)

Then you also ascribe negative and positive traits to each version of her that conveniently support your claim that she goes from being a bad to good person when she transforms.

 

[RagnarokX]

I probably shouldn't wade into this discussion, since it's somewhat beside the topic (that is, nobody here is saying that Tetra is evil; by most indications a harmless cartoon pirate.) I just find it interesting how WW Zelda ignites so much debate over her degree of "Tetra-ness", considering how vague the game is about the details. Is her personality altered, or is she just stunned? Is she tanned or not? I'd say the conception of proper princess=untanned is on the king, whom the story treats as living in the past (with the notions that go with it), though that's an in-universe explanation of course, and insufficient for rectifying larger unfortunate trends.

In regards to the king, it's hard to say if it's an indication of a tan, normal tone, or just a signifier of age/weatheredness. Other characters have a similar tone not shared with their relatives, such as Orca and Link's Grandmother.

Well, we know King Daphnes' daughter was just as pale as Tetra Zelda, so his tan isn't indicative of anything. A King also wouldn't have the same social expectations as a Princess and be more active outdoors and wear less makeup. Hell, with Sheik, isn't it just as likely that, rather than Zelda wearing brownface as Sheik, she's just not wearing the white makeup she wears as a Princess?

BotW spoilers:

Spoiler

And this difference persists into BotW. King Rhoam is tanned while his daughter is very pale. Zelda in BotW is expected to spend most her time sealed in her room praying.

 

[Synth]

It's not just the Skin tone.
it's the eyes and the hair for Evil Ryu. He looks like an erupting volcano, just like Akuma.

Violent Ken has Egg white hair and eyes.
He doesn't look like anything but a caucasian man.

Personally I don't see anything wrong with E.Ryu and V.Ken.

I think you're overthinking it.

No, I thinking saying their skin is darker because of Akuma is overthinking it. Not only did they decide on Akuma's character traits themselves, just as with any other character... but it happens even with the absence of that character (hence the King of Fighters examples).

You talk about eyes and hair... but notice how Evil Ryu and Violent Ken don't have a hair colour designed to match Akuma's. Akuma's is fiery red, E Ryu's is brown, V Ken's is white.. there's no "evil" hair colour that Capcom has decided they should all be linked by, so why should the skin colours match?

And lastly, every other element of the character designs that differentiates the characters are being their evil version (being legitimately valid choices), didn't even exist when Evil Ryu was introduced. He first appeared in Street Fighter Alpha 2, with the skin colour change being the only thing that differentiared him from the standard "good" Ryu (besides his darker Gi, which is interchangeable for Ryu in general).

 

[grandwizard]

My question to the people making the argument that it's related to basic dark/light = evil/good connotations inherent in humans, even if that is true shouldn't we try to change it? Shouldn't we try to get away from that in our art as we know it has negative results in the people that consume it? Look at the many videos of the doll experiment and see how early these kinds of things are internalized and how it effects the self esteem of brown people. We should challenge these standards so artists don't just lazily rely on making something darker to make it evil and keep making their pristine lily white 'pure' protagonists, knowing that it's changing and shaping culture as it is.

 

[Shaanyboi]

But it's not making such a value judgement. All it says is that since a Princess is much less likely to receive a lot of direct sunlight her skin would be paler. Both Tetra and Zelda are presented as good, as they are the same person, and Zelda doesn't cease being Zelda when she reverts to Tetra. If anything her Zelda form uses the negative qualities of that whiteness to convey how vulnerable she is at that point in the game, with her identity revealed forcing her to go into hiding. It's also very likely she's wearing copious amounts of white makeup.

She's wearing white make-up on her arms?

And no, everything about how Zelda is revealed is done so in the most Disney-ass "Look! She's actually a majestic princess!" sort of framing. It doesn't set out to negatively portray her as anything but special and important (even though it still totally demean her by making the fun badass pirate into a dainty princess that has to hide in the castle).

You first make the universal assumption that princess = good and pirate = bad, as if that's some universal, accepted truth that isn't subverted on numerous occasions as well as in the game itself (if Tetra is bad, why would the hero, Link, associate with her?)

Then you also ascribe negative and positive traits to each version of her that conveniently support your claim that she goes from being a bad to good person when she transforms.

Pirates, by literal definition, aren't typically viewed as good people. Even the most famous pop-culture pirate, Jack Sparrow, is a fucking piece of shit who everyone hates (and for good reason). And yes, princesses are pretty fucking often portrayed as idealistic figures in comparison. The series' most central trope is that Princess Zelda is a fucking paragon of wisdom and virtue.

If these are seriously the definitions you're going to challenge, you're being pretty plainly obtuse.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Pirates, by literal definition, aren't typically viewed as good people. Even the most famous pop-culture pirate, Jack Sparrow, is a fucking piece of shit who everyone hates (and for good reason). And yes, princesses are pretty fucking often portrayed as idealistic figures in comparison.

Again, in pop culture that has never been an innate truth, and most people are able to look at context and see that. We've had both good pirates and thieves (Robin Hood), and bad princesses/royalty (Cersei). We've had an incredibly popular movie about a princess rejecting her position (Frozen). The most popular manga ever is about a group of good pirates (One Piece)

You're the one being obtuse.

 

[Nanashrew]

Yeah, Tetra and her crew are good pirates. Right at the beginning of the game they help you try to save your sister.

 

[renzolama]

Even the most famous pop-culture pirate, Jack Sparrow, is a fucking piece of shit who everyone hates (and for good reason).

Wait...who hates Jack Sparrow, beyond those of us old and cynical enough to regret Johnny Depp's life choices and wasted potential? The whole basis of the character is that he's a lovable rogue who survives purely on charisma and luck. Also, he's nowhere near the most famous pop-culture pirate, that would be Peter Pan.

Edit: Sorry, don't mean to derail - I can't resist a pirate argument

 

[big_z]

This is almost certainly a case of Nintendo absolutely refusing to change the look of its sacred Zelda characters

Makes it no less stupid....but just remember this is Nintendo we're dealing with. It makes the case a bit different

Giving tetra a tan was nintendos attempt at trying to keep it a secret that she was actually Zelda. Story has never been their strong suit.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Also again, people forget that Evil Ryu isn't some unique character - he's a palette swap.

 

[Nanashrew]

Giving tetra a tan was nintendos attempt at trying to keep it a secret that she was actually Zelda. Story has never been their strong suit.

Back in those days they could still be pretty good at stories though. Despite whatever issue with Tetra and Zelda thing, the story was good and had the most human Ganondorf everyone remembers fondly.

 

[ZdkDzk]

This goes with Nintendo's strict branding brought up earlier.

Tetra is essentially Sheik transforming into Zelda and doesn't really go off-brand since she has transformed before in the past. It's just a reuse of a trope from a past title. An issue of the Zelda series in the use of tropes of their most successful title, OoT.

Sheik would not be any better in this situation.

Sheik is an explicite disguise

.
There's a difference between a character choosing to disguise themselves as a completely different person/ethnic group to avoid persecution and a character having their skin tone magically change because they were told they were secretly a princess. Thats ignoring the connotations of Tetra's transformation vs Sheik's (which is the actual problem this thread is focused on)

And if it is a Sheik style transformation, that's potentially worse. If it's like you say, then the body she lived in for 12 years was a disguise (why?); if it's like the guy below, then Tetra actually is a POC who gets in universe whitewashed.

 

[RagnarokX]

My question to the people making the argument that it's related to basic dark/light = evil/good connotations inherent in humans, even if that is true shouldn't we try to change it? Shouldn't we try to get away from that in our art as we know it has negative results in the people that consume it? Look at the many videos of the doll experiment and see how early these kinds of things are internalized and how it effects the self esteem of brown people. We should challenge these standards so artists don't just lazily rely on making something darker to make it evil and keep making their pristine lily white 'pure' protagonists, knowing that it's changing and shaping culture as it is.

Well, that's the most solid point the video in the OP has. When you have good and evil version of a single character and depict it with changes in skin tone you got something of a point, however a problem with that is that the characters are light-skinned and light-skinned people can change pretty wildly in skin tone. The characters clearly aren't changing race, and I doubt anyone would mistake them for changing race. Also the characters could just be changing brightness, as if cast in magic shadow to represent darkness. For example, if you just lower the brightness on regular Ken by 70% you pretty much get Evil Ken. And there's possibly an association with death since skin darkens when it dies. But yeah, this is the strongest argument in the video.

Then the video goes off on weaker arguments. Bringing up Ganondorf as an example is strange because if villains are human they're usually white. The stereotype is rich powerful white people are usually the bad guys, and trying to find examples of black villains is kinda hard. Ganondorf being one of the main 3 characters in such a big franchise should really be a positive. Then there's the fact that while Ganondorf is evil, his own race in OoT disowns him and helps Link fight against him, with one member taking the role of sage along with another dark-skinned warrior.

And then he tries to say black hair = dark skin which is stretching it.

She's wearing white make-up on her arms?

And no, everything about how Zelda is revealed is done so in the most Disney-ass "Look! She's actually a majestic princess!" sort of framing. It doesn't set out to negatively portray her as anything but special and important (even though it still totally demean her by making the fun badass pirate into a dainty princess that has to hide in the castle).


Pirates, by literal definition, aren't typically viewed as good people. Even the most famous pop-culture pirate, Jack Sparrow, is a fucking piece of shit who everyone hates (and for good reason). And yes, princesses are pretty fucking often portrayed as idealistic figures in comparison. The series' most central trope is that Princess Zelda is a fucking paragon of wisdom and virtue.

If these are seriously the definitions you're going to challenge, you're being pretty plainly obtuse.

Sure. It's possible. It's not like women didn't used to do that.

And everything about Zelda once she's revealed presents her as vulnerable. Once her identity is revealed she has to hide since Ganon has no reason not to go after her. The only reason Link has the luxury of continuing his quest is because he's no threat to Ganon yet and Ganon needs him to collect the Triforce of Courage first. Link got bodied by Ganon the first 2 times they met, so it's not like he's presented as being much better off than Zelda until he repairs the Master Sword.

Wind Waker goes out of its way to present Tetra as good and that she secretly kinda knows she's Zelda. She puts on a front so that her crew doesn't suspect what she's doing, but she helps Link at several points and does that wink thing to let you know she's doing it on purpose. Her room is full of stuff related to the Hero and the Triforce, including the tapestry telling the legend of the Hero of Time.

 

[Muscle Wizard]

Evil Ryu and Violent Ken are tanned because it makes them look more like Akuma. It also makes them look cooler.

 

[Blues1990]

I feel like this thread is losing focus on the topic at hand, and just devolved into a discussion about The Wind Waker's off-colour (heh) sequence when Tetra transformed into Zelda.

At the very least, maybe some suggestions on how to solve this issue would be more productive? I'm all ears for it.

 

[Nanashrew]

.
There's a difference between a character choosing to disguise themselves as a completely different person/ethnic group to avoid persecution and a character having their skin tone magically change because they were told they were secretly a princess. Thats ignoring the connotations of Tetra's transformation vs Sheik's (which is the actual problem this thread is focused on)

And if it is a Sheik style transformation, that's potentially worse. If it's like you say, then the body she lived in for 12 years was a disguise (why?); if it's like the guy below, then Tetra actually is a POC who gets in universe whitewashed.

Tetra is tanned and not a person of color though. The tan isn't a disguise. She doesn't even know she's Zelda or lots of stuff about her heritage.

Kinda weird you have no issue with Sheik though but just point to disguises. Sheik has a darker skin tone than Zelda. It's not quite as noticeable in the original N64 version, but it's there. And still there in OoT 3D.

More prominent in stuff like Smash. Melee trophy even gets closer to the original artwork, and her character model is pretty dark.

Newer smash games however have made her a bit more ashy.

Hyrule Warriors doesn't do the skin changes

Unless it's the classic design...

 

[IrishNinja]

Yes, apparently I'm on a high horse because I can see the obvious stupidity in trying to use historical classism to justify visuals in a fantasy setting

yeah, high horse is right up there with virtue signaling in d-bag "i'm not a racist but.." lingo

Lmao. Racist bastards!

Because we all know Disney would never make something racially insensitive, right?

seriously, this couldn't be more relevant...but you should know you're catching an L when you agree with pie & beans

Evil Ryu and Violent Ken are tanned because it makes them look more like Akuma. It also makes them look cooler.

...so, the other evil character? interesting

It's like how it's fine for the Witcher not to have black people because it's European. Your imaginations can extend to talking trees whose insides are filled with ladders and torches and chests but you draw the line at having to act like dark skinned people are actually people

it's a shame this mess is still open, cause this was the perfect post to close it on

 

[yanipheonu]

I feel like this thread is losing focus on the topic at hand, and just devolved into a discussion about The Wind Waker's off-colour (heh) sequence when Tetra transformed into Zelda.

At the very least, maybe some suggestions on how to solve this issue would be more productive? I'm all ears for it.

I'd at least make the sobering point that fixating on any one instance seems to be fruitless. Many of the examples of these negative tropes aren't necessarily intentional or actively malicious, but simply a product of a culture that has some unfortunate tropes in it.

Actually, the better way to go about things might not necessarily be harping on people when the trope occurs, but instead fostering diversity in general in gaming and other media. It's hard to stick to a racial bias if the cast is diverse.

 

[Venfayth]

If there was an overabundance of these types of villains I'd say it's something that should be adjusted but that's not really the case. Representation is important but there's no general reason any specific races or skins should be excluded from roles in games.

 

[LotusHD]

At the very least, maybe some suggestions on how to solve this issue would be more productive? I'm all ears for it.

It's been said multiple times already in past pages, but instead of looking to skin color in order to denote that a character has gone evil or that this is the protagonist(s)' evil half/twin/counterpart or whatever, you can stick to their clothes, personality, markings, power set, one poster showed an example of someone gaining demonic wings, stuff like that.

Like I see this for example:

And I'm like nah, they could do better.

And no one is saying the main villain or w/e can't ever be dark-skinned, but if say, the only dark-skinned person in the game is evil, while all the good guys are fair-skinned, uhh, you might want to reconsider that. I mean yea, there may be just that one out-there example or context where someone could maybe justify it, but again, might want to reconsider that. Self-awareness goes a long way.

And then of course, if protagonists and such were more diverse to begin with, that helps as well for obvious reasons.

 

[Nanashrew]

I feel like this thread is losing focus on the topic at hand, and just devolved into a discussion about The Wind Waker's off-colour (heh) sequence when Tetra transformed into Zelda.

At the very least, maybe some suggestions on how to solve this issue would be more productive? I'm all ears for it.

Well for mirror copies, making them more unique from the standard without skin changes is good. Dark Pit, like mentioned on the first page is a simple way of just doing it black hair, black wings, and black clothes. Making him look like a fallen angel or angel of death. And it matches his personality since it's Pit's subconscious love for fighting and battles (and wishing he could say things he really wants to say). All without resorting to changing skin color.

An over the top example that plays on the dark and light theme someone brought up was Tekken with Jin and Devil Jin. Devil Jin being a literal devil.

An evil Ryu could easily be done by simply removing the shirt, or let it hang off him like a jacket (similar to banchou). Changing his hair to be more red, make his idle animation a little more frantic like he's itching to destroy you. 2D sprites can be limited, but simple touches so he doesn't look like an alt-color can go a long way.


Good character design is key without making the skin an accessory like shirts or pants.

 

[Venfayth]

In terms of clothing style and stuff I don't think you'll ever escape the connotation of dark/black = evil and white/light = good. I'm not talking about race or skin, just when it comes to good and evil, light and dark, that's just what people think of.

 

[Chitown B]

Yet people seem to be bending over backwards to justify it instead of simply saying "yeah that's shitty"

begging the question. assuming that people think it's shitty, in your solution.

 

[RagnarokX]

It's been said multiple times already in past pages, but instead of looking to skin color in order to denote that a character has gone evil or that this is the protagonist(s)' evil half/twin/counterpart or whatever, you can stick to their clothes, personality, markings, power set, one poster showed an example of someone gaining demonic wings, stuff like that.

Like I see this for example:



And I'm like nah, they could do better.

And no one is saying the main villain or w/e can't ever be dark-skinned, but if say, the only dark-skinned person in the game is evil, while all the good guys are fair-skinned, uhh, you might want to reconsider that. I mean yea, there may be just that one out-there example or context where someone could maybe justify it, but again, might want to reconsider that. Self-awareness goes a long way.

And then of course, if protagonists and such were more diverse to begin with, that helps as well for obvious reasons.

I think in this case, along with Tetra, the main reason for the different skin color was to throw off suspicion to the true identity of those characters. And with cases like Ryu and Ken it's so they can be told apart beyond clothes since they may share outfit colors. Of course, they could have gone with blue skin or something.

And that's what's wrong with the Ganondorf point. Ganon and Twinrova are bad guys, The rest of the Gerudo race and Sheikah are good guys. And Ganon and Twinrova are disowned by the Gerudo and nobody blames his evil on his race.

 

[Nanashrew]

In terms of clothing style and stuff I don't think you'll ever escape the connotation of dark/black = evil and white/light = good. I'm not talking about race or skin, just when it comes to good and evil, light and dark, that's just what people think of.

Yeah, that's an unfortunate thing since good and evil comes in many forms and personalities. Evil has disguised itself as light plenty of times and looking like the nicest individual or deity. You can take that idea and apply it to a lot of things, even color. Turning what is often seen as a symbol of good to evil.

 

[MaddenNFL64]

Evil loves the darkness, good loves the light. The concept is as old as human consciousness I'd gather.

If people want to get rid of darkened skin on "evil characters" i'm fine with it, but i'm not for banning anything, so I leave it up to the artist.

 

[Shaanyboi]

I feel like this thread is losing focus on the topic at hand, and just devolved into a discussion about The Wind Waker's off-colour (heh) sequence when Tetra transformed into Zelda.

At the very least, maybe some suggestions on how to solve this issue would be more productive? I'm all ears for it.

Easy - if you want to show your character is now evil, or is to be viewed as obviously more evil or sinister than the protagonists, don't rely on changing skin pigmentation to do so when you have a myriad of other tools available. Similarly, if you want to, present someone as more virtuous, don't assume lightening them is the way to go.

Wanna have a dark-skinned villain? Fine. But then also make sure you're not all your heroes as light-skinned in comparison either.

Games like Persona 4 or Tekken have done the "evil version of otherwise good character" without relying on these specific tropes.

Well, that's the most solid point the video in the OP has. When you have good and evil version of a single character and depict it with changes in skin tone you got something of a point, however a problem with that is that the characters are light-skinned and light-skinned people can change pretty wildly in skin tone. The characters clearly aren't changing race, and I doubt anyone would mistake them for changing race. Also the characters could just be changing brightness, as if cast in magic shadow to represent darkness. For example, if you just lower the brightness on regular Ken by 70% you pretty much get Evil Ken. And there's possibly an association with death since skin darkens when it dies. But yeah, this is the strongest argument in the video.

Then the video goes off on weaker arguments. Bringing up Ganondorf as an example is strange because if villains are human they're usually white. The stereotype is rich powerful white people are usually the bad guys, and trying to find examples of black villains is kinda hard. Ganondorf being one of the main 3 characters in such a big franchise should really be a positive. Then there's the fact that while Ganondorf is evil, his own race in OoT disowns him and helps Link fight against him, with one member taking the role of sage along with another dark-skinned warrior.

And then he tries to say black hair = dark skin which is stretching it.


Sure. It's possible. It's not like women didn't used to do that.

And everything about Zelda once she's revealed presents her as vulnerable. Once her identity is revealed she has to hide since Ganon has no reason not to go after her. The only reason Link has the luxury of continuing his quest is because he's no threat to Ganon yet and Ganon needs him to collect the Triforce of Courage first. Link got bodied by Ganon the first 2 times they met, so it's not like he's presented as being much better off than Zelda until he repairs the Master Sword.

Wind Waker goes out of its way to present Tetra as good and that she secretly kinda knows she's Zelda. She puts on a front so that her crew doesn't suspect what she's doing, but she helps Link at several points and does that wink thing to let you know she's doing it on purpose. Her room is full of stuff related to the Hero and the Triforce, including the tapestry telling the legend of the Hero of Time.

Associations with hair color are pretty traditionally recognized tropes. With darker hair, it's usually identified with as 'eerie' or moody, but also sinister. Name me a Disney villain that isn't given black or comparatively darker hair and isn't named Ursula, or a twist villain like Hans. Again, media for kids often uses pretty obvious coded language, because again, it's for kids. As such, short-hand associations are especially common.

And Tetra very much is not aware she's Zelda. All the winky stuff is just meant to play her off as either clever or sassy.

Again, in pop culture that has never been an innate truth, and most people are able to look at context and see that. We've had both good pirates and thieves (Robin Hood), and bad princesses/royalty (Cersei). We've had an incredibly popular movie about a princess rejecting her position (Frozen). The most popular manga ever is about a group of good pirates (One Piece)

You're the one being obtuse.

Elsa's coronation as the queen happens 10 minutes into the movie. She runs away because she's scared of her powers, and by the end, she's back being the queen again.

This isn't even to mention how the term 'Disney Princess' has a pretty fucking specific implication that these are pure-of-heart, good-natured protagonists who are made as widely marketable to young girls as possible. Princess dresses are a cliche of halloween costumes, and they sure as hell aren't primarily designed to be in any way sinister.

Wait...who hates Jack Sparrow, beyond those of us old and cynical enough to regret Johnny Depp's life choices and wasted potential? The whole basis of the character is that he's a lovable rogue who survives purely on charisma and luck. Also, he's nowhere near the most famous pop-culture pirate, that would be Peter Pan.

Edit: Sorry, don't mean to derail - I can't resist a pirate argument

Like almost everyone in those movies? How many of those movies start or are driven by some motherfucker saying "I want revenge against Jack Sparrow," or "I want to arrest Jack Sparrow," usually because he's a prick who fucks over everyone. Even the main characters of those movies get annoyed by him after 20 minutes, assuming he doesn't instantly betray them.

Also his shtick in those movies is fucking boring at this point and its reflected in how poorly received that new movie is. But this is the end of my commenting on the Pirates movies in this thread in this context.

 

[LotusHD]

I think in this case, along with Tetra, the main reason for the different skin color was to throw off suspicion to the true identity of those characters. And with cases like Ryu and Ken it's so they can be told apart beyond clothes since they may share outfit colors. Of course, they could have gone with blue skin or something.

Well like you implied with the blue skin suggestion, there's always another way.

If people want to get rid of darkened skin on "evil characters" i'm fine with it, but i'm not for banning anything, so I leave it up to the artist.

Lol, no one's banning anything, ultimately we can't force artists to not do this. People are just saying that this is trope is problematic for various reasons, hence the criticism. Ideally, artists would take the feedback/criticism into account and act accordingly. If they choose not to, then well, people will just continue to criticize it.

 

[Shaanyboi]

In terms of clothing style and stuff I don't think you'll ever escape the connotation of dark/black = evil and white/light = good. I'm not talking about race or skin, just when it comes to good and evil, light and dark, that's just what people think of.

Color-association is what it is. Hell, Jurassic Park has some of the most famous visual coding for its characters by use of its costuming. Alan and Ellie are literally wearing the inverse of eachothers' costumes considering their shared perspectives. Alan wears blue with a red accent via a kerchief, Ellie wears a reddish shirt with a blue accent via a blue under-shirt. The kids also wear pretty similar clothes to one-another. Hammond, the creator of Jurassic Park, is wearing all-white like a fatherly God-figure. Malcolm, your sarcastic smart-mouth and cynic, is wearing black from head-to-toe. And Gennaro, our morally ambiguous lawyer, is wearing grey.

These ideas are ingrained into our visual language. No one could ever expect it to go away just like that. The problem is when we then make those same associations to skin color.

 

[RagnarokX]

Associations with hair color are pretty traditionally recognized tropes. With darker hair, it's usually identified with as 'eerie' or moody, but also sinister. Name me a Disney villain that isn't given black or comparatively darker hair and isn't named Ursula, or a twist villain like Hans. Again, media for kids often uses pretty obvious coded language, because again, it's for kids. As such, short-hand associations are especially common.

But again, the point is that equating hair color to skin color is stretching. Though what if Disney copied Kimba harder...

 

[Glitter and Gold]

A core aspect of Count Frollo's design is his large black and purple hat though, which he wears for a majority of the movie

That said I agree with you that the color black being used to code villains, through clothing or hair, is not what this thread is about. This is specifically regarding the darkening of skin. Hair color/style and clothing are more reasonable as they are both aspects of identity that can be changed or altered. Skin color is not.

 

[IrishNinja]

In terms of clothing style and stuff I don't think you'll ever escape the connotation of dark/black = evil and white/light = good. I'm not talking about race or skin, just when it comes to good and evil, light and dark, that's just what people think of.

crazy how that works though

 

[Glitter and Gold]

In terms of clothing style and stuff I don't think you'll ever escape the connotation of dark/black = evil and white/light = good. I'm not talking about race or skin, just when it comes to good and evil, light and dark, that's just what people think of.

No one is trying to challenge or change that connotation here. Just trying to separate skin color and race from that dichotomy, specifically in regards to accentuating the morality of characters in visual entertainment mediums.

 

[Kageshinzo]

Easy - if you want to show your character is now evil, or is to be viewed as obviously more evil or sinister than the protagonists, don't rely on changing skin pigmentation to do so when you have a myriad of other tools available. Similarly, if you want to, present someone as more virtuous, don't assume lightening them is the way to go.

Wanna have a dark-skinned villain? Fine. But then also make sure you're not all your heroes as light-skinned in comparison either.

Games like Persona 4 or Tekken have done the "evil version of otherwise good character" without relying on these specific tropes.

If it was just the darkening of skin pigmentation to show that the character has gone evil, then yeah, there's a problem with that. But that isn't the case when it comes to most of the portrayals of light/dark/good/evil things, especially in the video that you posted in your OP.

Everyone's focusing on the skin pigmentation when in fact, the concept of those characters being portrayed as evil comes from the whole package.

Evil Ryu - yes, dark skin. Also comes with those unnatural evil eyes, dark aura, dark clothes.
Violent Ken - dark skin. Also happens to have those sinister blank slanted eyes complete with dark bags.
Scar - dark fur. Also happens to have those green slanted eyes, those pointed eyebrows, that scar.
Shan Yu - ashen skin. Oh, happens to have those evil eyes again (heck, black eyeballs), evil beard.

And so on. You cannot just isolate one aspect of the whole archetypal evil design and point at it and say, "Hey, this is problematic as it promotes discrimination against minorities" and then ignore the other design choices of said character that gets augmented by that singular aspect to create the whole.

Can the portrayal be done without affecting skin pigmentation? Yes, but why limit a design to that, if said design can be made even more effective with its addition? If the whole idea is to make a character completely sinister and dark, then you do what you can to completely sell that idea. Again, the darkening of the skin is not to give off the idea that all dark-skinned people are evil; it's to emphasize that the darkness has consumed their all that it has affected every aspect of their design, much like how a shadow can cast shade over something. Of course, there will always be deconstructions e.g. Saruman the White, but they do not in any way diminish the notion that dark = evil/light = good in any at all. Otherwise, humanity's literature would be very boring and rote.

 

[Glitter and Gold]

Otherwise, humanity's literature would be very boring and rote.

This is a problem that could only exist in visual mediums though...

 

[Kageshinzo]

This is a problem that could only exist in visual mediums though...

I was actually referring more to the fact that deviations from the standard portrayal of dark = evil/light = good does happen and is very much welcome, but yes, I could've added media (visual or otherwise) in there to make it clearer.