MarkMclovin
Member
I literally watched that documentary that one of the attackers was shown on just a few days ago.
I hope all of those fuckers are being monitored closely now.
I hope all of those fuckers are being monitored closely now.
Terrorist attack in London [up: 6 people killed, ~50 injured, 3 attackers dead]
- Thread starter chadskin
- Start date
cromofo
Member
It doesn't really matter who you define strictly as right or left tbh.
Take the immigration crisis for example. Would you call Merkel centre-right after that? That was textbook leftist. It all swings to what could garner more support.
I think I should've expanded a bit on my previous post, I'm mainly thinking about the Left and Right talking points, rather than who's in charge.
Seen some clips of that on TV. WTF, that is happening front and centre. Infuriating. Also, why the hell are they living in the UK anyway. I don't like to get angry like that but seeing them walking about being that hateful and little to nothing happened. We don't need these people in our society.
MarkMclovin
Member
The main guy in that lot boasts of being on benefits too. They spew all sorts of hate and will do whatever they can to spread their word which is easy to do in the UK.
You mean the refugees crisis? That was a human being attitude, not left or right.
cromofo
Member
It doesn't do it justice calling it refugee or immigration crisis because it wasn't strictly one or another. Looking at the numbers, I think we all can agree it wasn't all a refugee wave.
Open border policy is leftist, I'd say.
It could've been handled much differently than the shitstorm it was.
Sinfamy
Member
An open door policy, as opposed to proper vetting and interviewing is definitely left wing.
Yeah, all those attacks in Britain linked to the refugee crisis.
There is vetting and interviewing ongoing.
cromofo
Member
You're diverting. I clearly said Europe.
All those attacks in Europe linked to the refugees crisis. How many out of 1 million people?
Miles Quaritch
Member
How many attacks in Europe have been carried out by unvetted refugees?
Firstly, no it isn't. Find me where it lists open door immigration as a left wing policy. After all, free movement of people and capital is actually a right wing free market end point. Secondly, the casual bias in your post is quite ridiculous - 'proper vetting' indeed. As if left wing governments want terrorists pouring over the borders and only those sensible right wing types treat it seriously.
Sinfamy
Member
There are no sensible right wing governments.
Interview and vet before they enter, not after.
Setup a proper infrastructure if you're going to go through with it.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/30/fears-for-missing-child-refugees
It was a crisis. There were people dying in the sea and thousands of other people wandering through Europe. Unfortunately not everybody lives in the perfect world where everything can be done by the book in a isolated environment. Sometimes you need to solve the problems with what you have.
Understanding this is not a matter of being left or right.
Cabaratier
Neo Member
It really does matter what words mean, if you continue using those words afterwards to make a point. It is a fact that the majority of Europe has not have political parties that are affiliated with left wing ideals leading nations for quite some time. Left wing parties have a variety of shared ideals (wealth redistribution mainly), and a bunch of values that are not universal to all left wing parties (social rights, pacifism). What you are doing is calling everything governments have done recently that you don't like, 'lefty'/'leftwing'/based on 'left wing talking points'.
When it comes to the UK, one of the things we are sure of is that the right-wing, conservative, government party, has deeply cut state services, including police. The recent terrorist attacks were all perpetrated by people who were on watch lists and were actually reported by friends and family members to the police. How does the left bear the blame for that?
cromofo
Member
What? I'm talking how open border policy is a leftist move from a supposed centre-right government. I used it as an example for that, that's all.
English is not my mother tongue so I have a hard time expressing my thoughts in the exact way I want.
To clarify, I have used a single example of the refugee/immigrant crisis to point that to say "centre-right government is centre-right" is not always true. You're telling me that I don't like everything governments have done if the doings are "leftist", which is totally false and I don't know how you go from a single thing to multiple things.
There are many leftist policies I agree and I identify as a generally leftist, but in case of how the refugee/immigrant crisis was handled, I don't agree with it.
No, it isn't. So pipe down.
Cabaratier
Neo Member
It is not a leftist move. You call it leftist, because you don't like it. There is nothing inherently leftist about the open door policy, regardless of whether you consider it humanitarian assistance or unchecked immigration.
You are in fact talking about it right now, and it is not clear what point you're making, so maybe you should remedy that.
You're confusing some concepts here. Open border policy is part of the single market concept, the 4 freedoms. It's actually a combined right-left policy and compromise and very much plays into the free capital and labour market that is a right wing topic. The radical left wing is actually promoting isolationism.
What Merkel did was to unblock a refugee situation that was reaching tragic heights. It was a purely humanitarian position. Unless you want to claim that right wing is never able to have humanitarian positions or empathy.
cromofo
Member
I don't use leftist as a right wing attack label. Sorry if it looks like it. As I said, I'm still learning English and getting familiar with all the terms takes time. I'll look to correct it in the future.
Cabaratier
Neo Member
Yeah saw the pictures. Damn, what a hero. Unbelievable that he survived.
Good thing Theresa May wants to hold intelligence hostage from the EU as a bargaining chip for Brexit negotiations.
ResidentDante
Member
The problem is evidence to lock people like this up early. Until they actually carry out horrendous attacks they are mainly going around spreading abusive thoughts about western society, but not actually doing anything legally wrong. Given the use of cars and knives too, it's difficult to nail them for carrying any weapons either.
ReplacementPelican
Member
Yeah, ultimately reminds me of how Breivik has Radical clerics testify at his trial to show the courts his fear of islamisation (and thus the murder of 77 people, mostly children) was justified.
The far right and radical Islam feed off each other, its sickening.
Are you European? I only ask because the whole 'open border policy' comment makes you think you actually can't be European or else you've missed quite a lot.
Also, Europe's reaction to the refugee crisis was not left or right but sensible. Why are you even talking about refugees, actually?
Manchester attacks - British citizen
London - Pakistani, Moroccan-Libyan, Moroccan-Italian
Who out of these four was a Syrian refugee? Shit, most U.K. terrorist attacks by Muslims have been by British citizens, nothing to do with spooky refugeees.
Please don't bring this bullshit into this thread, we're trying to deal with terrorism and a humanitarian crisis, it doesn't help to start disrupting either of these.
Theonik
Member
Why am I being quoted here?
E:
I find it quite depressing frankly.
GoldenCrow
Member
As others have said the left haven't been in power in many countries and the far left certainly haven't been. The UK hasn't had a centre left government since 2010.
These events keep happening and the only real response we get from governments the world over is a knee jerk reaction that adds more bureaucracy that don't actually address the problems and are often nothing more than a guise to sate populist outlooks regardless of government. Even worse is those that then help the ideologies grow by ineffective hard handed tactics.
What is the actual problem? Extremism in any form. Those who want to exert their will on others using acts of violence to force the hand of who they deem to be the opposition and to make people aware of their beliefs. These sort of actions aren't unique to the modern times and have appeared in many different forms but rarely have the causes been addressed, often with them ending because the groups responsible for the specific acts fall apart due to internal conflict, change of strategy or larger events disrupt and disperse the foundation of the organisations. People shout "lock them up and throw away the key" but we know through historical evidence that this helps disseminate their ideology as does targeted killings as it makes them martyrs. Often by trying to shut up a certain ideology it often radicalises them as the various communist governments found out, how the Catholics failed with the Protestants during the reformation and how the Roman Empire failed when they persecuted early christians. History is littered with examples of those in charge attempting to put people in their place and failing often helping them grow instead. This isn't unique to any one culture nor limited to religion but the answers are complex if their is one at all, there is ample evidence that a hard hand really does't work even in the most extreme cases. If there is an answer maybe they lie in why certain ideologies failed to gain a hold despite funding and support.
Expecting services to prevent all of these kinds of actions is unrealistic just as stopping crime is unrealistic. It's why the duties of various forces is to maintain order and enforce the law, they can only do what is in their abilities and impossible for any one country to regulate and control the actions of its citizens. What is important is that the forces have the adequate funding and that they are encouraged to learn, improve and adapt based on any failures.
Camp Freddie
Member
Border control policies are alligned on the libertarian/authoritarian axis, rather than the typical left/right one.
Left-wingers can be protectionist (border-restrictions prevent the working class from being unfairly undercut by foreign workers or exploited by non-domiciled corporations)
They can also be internationalist and want open borders to expose as many people as possible to our ideas.
Right-wingers can be conservative and protectionist too, though their concerns are usually focused on security, protecting "our way of life" or simply xenophobia.
However, right-wingers were the biggest proponent of laissez-faire border controls as part of laissez-faire capitalism.
Personally, I'm quite shocked how the "right-wing" in most western countries has pivoted from free-market capitalism to xenophobic-protectionism. The conservative party encouraged widespread immigration, and wanted rapid expansion of the EU into Eastern Europe with few border controls (other EU members tended to want more transitional measures on immigration).
I expected the laissez-faire capitalists in the Conservatives and US Republicans to put up more of a fight.
Left-wingers can be protectionist (border-restrictions prevent the working class from being unfairly undercut by foreign workers or exploited by non-domiciled corporations)
They can also be internationalist and want open borders to expose as many people as possible to our ideas.
Right-wingers can be conservative and protectionist too, though their concerns are usually focused on security, protecting "our way of life" or simply xenophobia.
However, right-wingers were the biggest proponent of laissez-faire border controls as part of laissez-faire capitalism.
Personally, I'm quite shocked how the "right-wing" in most western countries has pivoted from free-market capitalism to xenophobic-protectionism. The conservative party encouraged widespread immigration, and wanted rapid expansion of the EU into Eastern Europe with few border controls (other EU members tended to want more transitional measures on immigration).
I expected the laissez-faire capitalists in the Conservatives and US Republicans to put up more of a fight.
Lucky_Se7enty
Member
from another thread
https://mobile.twitter.com/mrjammyjamjar3/status/871829837262061568
https://mobile.twitter.com/mrjammyjamjar3/status/871829837262061568
velociraptor
Junior Member
He makes an excellent point.
Circle Jerk
Member
Not really, it's a literal 'no true scotsman'.
Yeah, this is pretty damning.
We shouldnt be giving them anyone. Also, you cant strip citizenship if they belong here, what would you do with extremist converts? We have laws for treason and so should implement them.
Wrestlemania
Banned
What?
The part about the police creating a bottleneck at a certain time to make it looks like a crowd is crazy. I've never thought about that.
The media's obsession with cartoon figures though is nothing new and they are absolutely responsible for his image. In the same way Nigel Farage was invited onto everything even when he represented nobody they know that inviting people like Anjem Choudary on to shows is guaranteed numbers.
How? He broke down and highlighted methods used by one prominent extremist to publicise and promote his brand of hate, he showed evidence of these fucks being told to fuck off by wider community and how the media's fascination with him put his rotten beliefs in the spotlight despite concern from local leaders. How did any of that invoke no true scotsman ? He was not challenging his identity
GrizzleBoy
Banned
Daaaaaaaaaamn.
Yet it's absolutely so fucking true.
When Trump had basically nobody at his rallies, the cameras were set up to make it look like people were there and he was given stupid amounts of free coverage to the point that nobody knew that another republican candidate even existed. Then instead of calling him a fucking liar on the 200,000 lies per minute he tells, they hired correspondents from "both sides" to balance the facts with "alternative facts".
LBC radio station had a long running "phone Farage" segment where he was given free reign to sow the seeds of discourse before any referendum was even called.
And then yes, Anjem Choudhury, known hate preacher was given more time of day on radio, television and papers than any moderate sensible muslim around. He was given celebrity status. Which then fuels EDL and UKIP asshats and round and around we go.
All for the ratings.
Yeah, that was a pretty big eureka light bulb moment for me.
I mean, I guess they had it all set up because they expected significant backlash against Choudhury holding a rally, but that doesn't change the fact that the photographers and media correspondents present at the time would have known what was a Choudhury crowd and what was just a large group of muslims trying to leave through a a set of crowd control barriers.
Theonik
Member
That list of 23,000 suspects also includes 500 British citizens that decided to take part in the Syrian civil war that have since returned to the UK. They are all under varying levels of close surveillance though you have to appreciate the complexity of the matter.
In the first place home secretary Theresa May had not thought the implications through.
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
Don't read the comments! Don't read the comments! Damn, I read the comments.
But seriously, if a city like London can't afford to watch 400 extremists, just put electronic devices on them and track them.
velociraptor
Junior Member
Ah yes, the way to combat terrorism is to start attacking random women.
Fucking cowards.
I wonder what goes through the minds of these people.
'I hate these terrorists, they're always harming us. Let me go and abuse a Muslim woman! That's show how we are morally superior!'
ReplacementPelican
Member
My girlfriend has a friend whose brother was attacked Monday night by some thugs because he's a Muslim. From the description of events they damn-near caved his head in.
Now, that's shit and all but there's more. She expressed concern about this at work to a young woman who also works here. This woman paused for a few seconds and said it was a shame before musing 'it'd be better if people just stayed in their own countries and we worked across borders in peace.' This guy was English. Took me a few seconds to process the degrees of stupidity after I'd been told this.
Her work seems pretty 'good' for it though, after an employee complained about religious discrimination - also Muslim - the same woman expressed that Muslims 'always play the race card when they don't get what they want.'
Her team are also staunch Tories, have said they think privatizing the NHS towards a more 'American' system would be much, much better as America 'has the best healthcare in the world' which seemed odd given that these people all use the NHS and not Bupa, its weird how English people who parrot the virtues of private healthcare never actually seem to realise they can buy private healthcare or they do and decide not to for some obtuse reason.
Oh and I should probably also note that this isn't some poor, industrial setting. Its a massive international company full of people who you'd expect to be better educated than this sentiment would suggest.
Kadayi
Banned
To actively monitor that number of individuals would engage a good few thousand personal on a daily basis, even with Electronic tagging.
Shadowhelper
Banned
The British media and their love of supporting hate preachers like Anjem Chaudry really played a big role in these attacks. The British media is in this love affair with terrorism, where they are tricking people, and radicilizing young Muslims.
https://twitter.com/mrjammyjamjar3/status/871829837262061568
The Muslim community long ago rejected these hate preachers, who are banned from regular Muslim life in the UK, their only outlet is the British media who knows they don't represent the community, but bring in ratings by being sensationalist. The British media has been doing this for awhile now.
And by promoting these hate preachers, you're going to eventually radicalize someone.
https://twitter.com/mrjammyjamjar3/status/871829837262061568
The Muslim community long ago rejected these hate preachers, who are banned from regular Muslim life in the UK, their only outlet is the British media who knows they don't represent the community, but bring in ratings by being sensationalist. The British media has been doing this for awhile now.
And by promoting these hate preachers, you're going to eventually radicalize someone.
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