Dragon Ball FighterZ - Gameplay Footage - 60 FPS Direct Feed
- Thread starter Lifejumper
- Start date
LordKasual
Banned
Hi there. Animator here. and ordinarily you'd be right. You wouldnt NORMALLY have to remodel or touch up every frame in 3d. You'd just let some timeline scrubbing between keyframes cover you on the motions between keyframe poses and then adjust curves to add snappiness.
HOWEVER THIS IS NOT NORMAL 3D THIS IS THE ASW GUILTY GEAR STYLE OF ANIMATION MEANING YOU ARE WRONG THEY NOT ONLY HAVE TO REDO POSES EVERY FRAME BUT ALSO REDO ALL SHADING WORK.
The GG style is unique. Ordinarily you unwrap a model and it looks like an unwrapped football or something. This is an ordinary UV unwrap.
This is a GG model which is how the Dragonball game is doing its amazing graphics.
You see...normally when you unwrap a model and setup shaders you PAINT the areas on the map you want to receive more light or shadow as the model moves in front of or away from light sources and the engine generates the shadows and highlights for you.
ARC SYS SAYS FUCK THAT NOISE.
Arc Sys knows that if you zoom in close enough or that on certain frames the model's lighting will look off and not like an anime. Plus Arc Sys instead uses the NEGATIVE SPACE to generate their hard black lines. instead of actually using a cel shader setup. THEY LITERALLY CUT OUT AND UNWRAP EVERY MUSCLE OR EDGE ON THEIR MODELS AS A SEPERATE UV.
They then go and make those UV's flood fill with solid colors those areas in blocks. Normally if you stretch a UV too far a texture the textures look stretched. But ASW doesn't use textures that way. They try to emulate 2d art by doing color flats first, then shaders, then lines. To get the lines in 3d they tug the UV's to areas with no color and the engine cannot register a texture so it makes them appear Black but as a VECTOR. Not as a normal texture...thats the key. Vector based art never has seems or pixelation no matter how close you get to it so they found a means to take areas with no color to generate black in vector to perfectly recreate the 2d linework that goes into normal art. No matter how the model moves and turns the crease of every muscle will have perfect lines and seems because its generating void as black...or whatever other color they tell the engine per frame which can change.
By doin all that to get perfect lines though they have to chop up everything with a seam into its own UV. That means they have a hard time orgainzing a UV MAP unless they make those areas squares. That makes the UV Map insanely hard to work with at a glance and its time consuming as hell to tweak, but since the colors are all flat and not textures its doable!
However this style of stretched UVs comes at a major cost...ALL REFLECTION AND AND SHADOWS GENERATED BY NORMAL SHADER MAPS DONT WORK RIGHT! Thats right...the maps are stretched so when the light hits the model and it moves the shadows spaz out and look like the kind of stretched to shit textures they are.
THIS IS WHY YOU CAN"T JUST MAKE ANOTHER MODEL IN THIS STYLE. ASW STYLE ANIMATION STILL REQUIRES YOU TO HAND SHADE AND HIGHLIGHT EVERY FRAME OF ANIMATION TO CORRECT THE ISSUES BROUGHT ON WITH THERE UV SETUP THAT WAS CREATED TO GET THE CEL SHADE LINES PERFECT.
Not only that but the ASW team also showed that they did not care for the tween animations created by scrubbing timelines between keyframes. They LITERALLY still go through and repose every single frame of animation they do in 3d to emulate the squash and stretch that goes into 2d animations and since its a 3d model it takes longer to do this way than to simply draw it, because you have to puppeteer every limb per frame.
ASW STYLE CEL SHADE 3D MODELING IS DAMNED NEAR TRIPLE THE WORK. ITS EASILY SIMPLER TO 2D ANIMATE THAN DO WHAT THEY DO.
You learn today. Educate yourself. I've done this shit, I've followed their tutorials and it is a fucking timesink. ASW is not run of the mill cel shading work or 3d animation. They are simply using 3d models as a new way to generate 2d principles and in so doing have gone to insane lengths of work no one else is willing to take on.
HERE. WATCH THE VID THEY DID ON HOW THEY ANIMATE THEIR SHIT IF YOU DONT BELIEVE ME AND LEARN WHY THEY CANT JUST POOP OUT 3D ALT MODELS IN THEIR STYLE.
Yep, thanks for this. Watching that video on how they did it was pretty amazing.
The work they put in is crazy, and it shows. I never thought i'd see the day where I actually prefer 3D models to sprites.
This 3D style achieves the "anime" look better than any amount of sprites could ever achieve
Yep. Its the way its drawn, it will always look off in a 3D environment.
His hair is pretty off here.
His face in the Xenoverse games was the big problem (see pic), I thought his base hair looked fine. It was his transformed hair that looked like an oversized wig.
His hair is pretty off here.
Gotta disagree, i think it looks fine.
pelicansurf
Needs a Holiday on Gallifrey
Yo, this looks great.
It always is oversized even in this one
look
That is art based on game models. It looks off here too.
His hair is pretty off here.
And his face is horribly flat.
Base Goku (and dare I say SSJ Goku) is the weakest model in the game shown so far.
Gohan and Frieza are beyond perfect.
And his face is horribly flat.
Base Goku (and dare I say SSJ Goku) is the weakest model in the game shown so far.
Gohan and Frieza are beyond perfect.
Bruh i think his face looks absolutely PERFECT here, man we nitpicking on a very high level now it seems.
Nice collection of DBFZ stuff here:
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1spuqtk
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1spuqtk
That I disagree with. His face looks fine.And his face is horribly flat.
Base Goku (and dare I say SSJ Goku) is the weakest model in the game shown so far.
Gohan and Frieza are beyond perfect.
I disagree. I think he looks terrible in base.
You can like it, you can't tell me this looks like Goku's 2D counterpart, it's obvious it's a 3d models and the eyes and brows look super flat.
shaowebb
Member
Actually your still missing it. You ARE hand shading every frame in this style. The shadow maps and highlight maps cannot be done via tug tugging all the time. You still have to hand paint each frame of animation to layout the highlights and shadows right. If they can use the tug to setup the shadows near seams in the colors they like it can sometimes be more work sometimes not but its still every frame as otherwise the shadows look static and dont flow organically enough for ASW. They still do every frame if you watch that whole video. The highlights bone them hard though...those generally aren't near seams to tug tug. They gotta work harder to get those frames.I hear what you're saying, and hopefully we're not derailing the thread too much
A couple of points.
You bring up hand shading every frame. You're not really hand shading every frame. Your basically adjusting uvs/verts until the shadowing looks good. It's not like you have to go in there and handpaint. I've done similar things in the past and it's actually really fast to do.
Believe me. I've done this too. Lots of folks here 3d animate. But try doin the ASW style once. You'll lose a month easily. I've done what you said as standard practice for a normal model but one model, even a simple one in this style, goes to hell on the highlight/shadows portion of animating because you are back to frame by frame work no matter what.
I'm saying there is no time shaved. Thats what I'm trying to drill home. They triple the work load of 2d animating shit by doing what ASW does to recreate 2d principles in 3d in the pipeline they utilize. They still got to hand animate each frame but now they gotta puppeteer which takes more time than normal 2d or even 3d since its now frame by frame adjusting squash and stretch AND making new models for blend shapes to create the 2d principle of a limb in two places at once or morphing to show more snappiness. New models all need that shader hell too. The line work is hell on UV unwrap work and organization and is a constant frame by frame pain because every frame you gotta tweak the line weight for the pose and lighting or they look like a damned mess. YES they do this too...they frame by frame repose the UV's for line weights to shift. Then the shader then the highlights.
Lets count how many things have to seperately be reanimated frame by frame.
- Line weight. Every UV on every frame gets retugged to adjust line thickness.
- Shadows. Every shadow has to be hand painted or uv tugged into place per frame of animation across every seam of the model. This is made hard with the UV style they use.
- Highlights. Every highlight on the model to flow organically needs hand painted just like the shadows.
- Squash and stretch. ASW doesn't like normal keyframing and scrubbing. They go through and repose every frame for squash and stretch. This can often take more time than 2d work given the complexity of some models.
- TWEEN FRAMES. They have to model, unwrap, shade and highlight any new models used to make morph frames to recreate 2d animation style tween frames. Thats more modelin, uv unwrapping, linework, shadow, and highlight work for every frame and every morphshape they use. Look up Millia's hair and Zato files for an example of how complex this gets.
Not doubting you have done some 3d but its clear you've never done this particular pipeline and its a son of a bitch that makes every stage waaaaaay harder than normal to achieve a perfect 2d simulation in 3d. Its not easier. Its not faster and I'm sorry, but you definitely can't defend your statement earlier. Take the L. ASW is crazy. Its not easy to make alt models or easier to do anything in their style. It even makes normal 3d animation way harder because of how much shit breaks every frame that you got to touch up.
Shin
Banned
This...
Though I'm guilty of that since I don't like the logo of the game, prefer the original or Z.
What you're missing is that Super is a continuous show with tons of new characters they could add.
They'll have Kale, Caulifla, Cabba, Ribrianne, Toppo and Jiren even if they add Zamasu, Black, Hit, Whis and Beerus.
It really sounds like you think this will be a mostly Super game. We also know how these companies work. There will be DLC, there will be sequels, makes sense to put Super in that category first and just have the base be mostly Z. Just because Super is currently airing it doesn't mean that they'll always go with that. You know this. They can save that stuff for a sequel, easily. It really sounds as though you think they're mostly going to shaft what Z was simply because Super's new and hot when really it looks as though this will be a mostly Z game, get that out of the way, and then they can move on. It's called "FighterZ" bruh.
17 didn't really do anything in Z besides have that Piccolo fight that ended in a stalemate. That's just not enough for him to be in a game when you look at a potential roster. I mean you can't have 18 and 17 both in a DBZ game unless the roster size is larger. Super's 17 is a different story. He's great. Z's 17 not being in a game and as DLC or in a sequel makes sense.
Nah if Beerus is in the game he's going to be DLC or one of those "ok you've beaten everything he's your secret final character" things.
They gotta go in the back of the line honestly. They're probably going to go in order so we get the Z stuff and then get the more recent Super stuff in expansions. Some people might hate waiting but we know what these companies do. I highly doubt it'll be a mostly Super game like a lot think. Those 2 female Saiyans I think they'll be in a sequel at the absolute earliest. Just no place for them in the base title.
bumpkin
Member
In-fucking-credible. There is no better word.
Is it safe to assume that with Frieza having his golden form, maybe Goku and Vegeta will have Super Saiyan Blue/God transformations as well? That would be rad. I mean I know their move-sets probably wouldn't change at all, but the bump in speed, power or combo potential would be nice.
Any info on what purpose charging ki serves?
ArchedThunder
Banned
Aaronrules380
Member
I know both are beloved, but they're also side stories that feature almost no characters likely to show up in the game so it's a weird situation. Battle of gods is great and features most of the important characters, but it might be harder to understand for a newcomer
Lee Chaolan
Member
Super Saiyan levels of nit-picking here 
Just rejoice, friends, that we have this amazing looking newMahvel DBZ game!
Now, I need me some Tien footage. Anything extra yet?
Just rejoice, friends, that we have this amazing looking new
Now, I need me some Tien footage. Anything extra yet?
?
Who says I'm missing that? They're sequel characters. There's so many characters they can add in Super that they can make sequels and DLC off them. Z's time is up however so dealing with Z first makes the most sense considering Z won't get any more time for itself. I know people love Super and all but shit, think about this for a bit. Don't tell me they'll have sequels and include Z characters they somehow didn't miss for the first game lol.
Orochinagis
Member
Oh, so the main mode is 3v3? thats so MvC
Yeah it is, but its almost impossible to make hair on model in 3D. I removed all the lighting on his hair and it looks better:No, it's way off.
He also has too many hair spikes on the left.
lucebuce12
Member
Game looks like literal shit, Jesus Christ.
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
Man, Vegeta jobbin as always.
Aaronrules380
Member
Wut
I expect 18 characters at launch
Locked for the roster are surely:
- Goku (Ressurection of F version probably as DLC skin)
- Vegeta (Ressurection of F version probably as DLC skin)
- Teen Gohan
- Ultimate Gohan
- Future Trunks (Z)
- Gotenks
- Piccolo
- Krillin
- N°18
- Frieza
- Cell
- Majin Bu
- Kid Bu
- Beerus
Could be on the launch roster:
- Captain Ginyu (Z)
- Mercenary Tao
- Mr. Satan
- Vegito
- Broly
- Supreme Kai
- Dabura
- Kid Goku
- Master Roshi
Personal pick:
- Arale
Locked for the roster are surely:
- Goku (Ressurection of F version probably as DLC skin)
- Vegeta (Ressurection of F version probably as DLC skin)
- Teen Gohan
- Ultimate Gohan
- Future Trunks (Z)
- Gotenks
- Piccolo
- Krillin
- N°18
- Frieza
- Cell
- Majin Bu
- Kid Bu
- Beerus
Could be on the launch roster:
- Captain Ginyu (Z)
- Mercenary Tao
- Mr. Satan
- Vegito
- Broly
- Supreme Kai
- Dabura
- Kid Goku
- Master Roshi
Personal pick:
- Arale
GTFO
Uh no.
Rynocirator
Member
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
Are you from the inverted universe?
RedAssedApe
Banned
gotta complain about something i guess. this is like the 2d fighter i dreamed of as a kid when capcom first started putting out versus games and i wanted them to make a DBZ crossover one.
Are we looking at the same game?
Ben admitted he was wrong in a tweet. Don't worry, he got so much shit for it, lol