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[Vital Tundra]

Whatever makes you happy, Woolie.

Thats a good one, ha!

 

[Graciaus]

This would probably be good for me since I hate using the keyboard. But I just stick to using a controller. I'll have to try this one day.

 

[dsk1210]

I've been playing games on console for my entire life. I recently built up the courage to build a PC. I never planned to go all in like I did but it just happened and I ended up never looking back to consoles except for one thing...

I couldn't help but feeling depressed about trying to get used to KB+M specifically for shooters. You see, I've been playing shooters competitively on console for the better part of my life. And now that I had switched to PC I was struggling a lot with shooters specifically.

It was getting to the point that I was having health issues. I would get so tense because my brain was going faster than my fingers could get used to with KB+M that I would sometimes get severe pain in my shoulders in between my shoulder blades.

You see, I thought it was the mouse that was screwing me up. I was wrong.

So, there I was, trying out Warframe. This time I was determined to try to get used to KB+M even though it was such a bear in the past. This time I would take it slow and play in small amounts. See, Warframe had grabbed me and I was loving it. I wanted to get used to KB+M with a game that I loved that would make it harder for me to quit because I am anticipating playing Anthem on PC when it releases and would like to actually start to try to play competitively again. So I had time.

Anyway, I was messing around with the keybindings trying to find something that didn't jar me so much and that felt efficient (to no avail). After I exited the menu I reached across my IRL desk for a cherry (farmers markets are awesome) and I accidentally bumped my controller while at the same time my other hand was moving the mouse... I saw my character move and at the same time the mouse was moving the view. There was no UI change or lag like I've seen in some games where you switch inputs. I thought that was standard...

That's when it hit me. Oh snap. No way this is going to work... But it did. I put the controller in my left hand and the mouse in my right and everything clicked. Like, I swear, it was like my world had changed. As if my pituitary gland was laying in wait for it's chance to strike and decided to drop an endorphin bomb on my brain.

I then did some quick keybinding to both controller and mouse, I have a naga with 12 side buttons so plenty of room for skills. And then it dawned on me again... I have an Elite controller! Two extra buttons with just the left hand and in the flipping perfect position.

This combination INSTANTLY increased my performance 100 fold. I was able to switch to public play and constantly came in second and third playing with KB+M users when before I was always last. Remember, I've only discovered this yesterday and I've only been trying hard to play with a mouse for 4 days. Every other time I'd end up giving up.

This time there was no pain. I don't get so tense at all and I can play for hours take quick break and come back. Where before I could play for hours... if I wanted to have pain and have to take at least an entire day off of playing.

I figured out that it wasn't the mouse that was messing me up. It was the left hand trying to get used to the keyboard and the awkward way that I had to press buttons that where no where near where my fingers felt comfortable. Not to mention button combos. All of this not matching up to how I had trained my brain my whole life was making me stress out.

A huge part of it was the lack of precision that you have using WASD over a joystick with movement. There is hardly any granularity on the keyboard but with the joystick you can move slower or faster depending on how far you press the stick out. On KB you are also taking up three fingers with WASD where on a controller you are only using your thumb freeing up other fingers to be ready on buttons that you could be pressing faster.

So now, I feel like I have the best of both worlds. I have the AMAZING precision of the mouse and the FAR more comfortable and precise use of my left hand for movement and finger utilization.

I was being serious when I said that it was really bumming me out trying to get used to KB+M before. There are so many FPS's coming out and are already out that I want to get into and experience on PC and be competitive again because I love it and it would have nagged at me that I was at a disadvantage using solely a controller. I had tears in my eyes after trying this and it working so well.

Have any of you heard of this? I'm prepared to feel like a dunce if this is common knowledge but I had never heard of it before.

If you've never heard of it though and you can relate to my story, you should definitely give this a try! It could change everything.

So far I've tried this with Warframe, Metro and DOOM and they all work flawlessly! How many other games let you do this?! I held off buying SO many games because of my previous situation but this would get me into them for sure.

It's a good set up.

I played through the Crysis games like that and it worked so well.

I also had a 15 button mouse as well which helped for bindings that were weird on the controller.

 

[autoduelist]

I don't really want to hijack this thread in any way, but I'm also hesitant to start a brand new thread over something so small.

Does anyone know of a good mouse I can use without any surface available. Are these good enough at this point, or still full of kinks?

 

[Teknopathetic]

"Does anyone know of a good mouse I can use without any surface available. Are these good enough at this point, or still full of kinks?"

A trackball.

 

[rodrigolfp]

good to have options, but you still have to "claw grip" to acess dpad buttons, and like others already said, WASD (or even ESDF) gives you more keys on left hand and faster input changes. and you dont need analog movement for shooters since always...

 

[zewone]

Not PC but like this?

If so I agree! That is how I played the shooter parts of Marlow Briggs lol! My logitech controller and mouse.

This controller actually does work on PC:

THERE IS A SOLUTION I JUST DISCOVERED AND TRIED FOR MYSELF FOR HYBRID CONTROLLERS ON THE PC!

The Hori TAC Grip G1

I wanted something to replace my PS Move Controller, and thought a good solution might be the Hori Tac Grip...It is advertised as a PS4/PS3 controller with a mouse attachment, but it works great on the PC (just flip the switch to PS3 for XInput Mode)

AND IF YOU DOWNLOAD AN UPDATE, IT CAN RECOGNIZE THE CONTROLLER AS A KEYBOARD! (Analog stick is programmed to be WASD, SO NO HANZO/ZEN GLITCH)

Just download the software to edit, follow update instructions on the website as shown, and WALA! No Hanzo/Zenyatta glitch! (Controller is a bit pricey though...100$ on Amazon)

*Don't plug in the mouse directly to the controller, as it will act as an analog stick. Just use any mouse of your choice as normal*
*The firmware update is REQUIRED for this device to be recognized as a keyboard...if you don't update the device firmware, it will just recognize the device as a controller*

I will be using a lot more Zen/Hanzo now that it doesn't switch between the skills anymore.

Here are the links to the software and software updates for the controller.

Hybrid players: We can finally enjoy this game with ALL CHARACTERS!

http://www.hori.jp/products/p4/p4_tac_g1_UK/DL/
http://www.hori.jp/products/p4/p4_tac_g1_UK/update/

 

[Team Filler]

Some of the precision movements you need to make instaneously in fast shooters such as Quake would probably be nearly impossible to pull off with an analog stick. In fact, I'm having difficulty thinking of any FPS where analog/joystick + mouse would be an improvement, with the exception of the Descent series.

It's similar with 2d platformers too, where I choose digital over analog movement everytime when possible. I find the dpad much more comfortable for making snap movements.

 

[Tyraniboah]

I made a thread a little while ago looking for a similar solution. I think I'll try the left joycon and I'll buy a mouse with more than two programmable buttons. If that doesn't work out then I'll give some of these other suggestions a try. I'm glad you made this thread OP. I'm seeing some good advice

 

[BebopMcJigglypuff]

I would love to see someone do proper bunny hopping using a controller's analog stick for movement...

To say that it's inarguably better for shooters is inarguably ignorant.

 

[teokrazia]

No, I'm saying WASD lets you change direction faster and that it's an advantage you're ignoring. And that the added granularity isn't as important as it is when you are playing on a gamepad as you don't need to compensate your aim with movement as much when playing on a mouse.

For certain movements, especially in FPS, without question. Personally I don't even know how to bhop in something like Quake, but I highly doubt you could do it with a mouse/analog stick combo

Stutter stepping/jiggle peeking in CS:GO and Rainbow Six Siege would likely be less effective/doable on a stick.

No, like a few others have said, posts which are strategically ignored, analogue movement doesnt trump keyboard controls. Like, at all. One thing people also ignore, mouse and keyboard arent separate entities, they work together as one in games, thats their strength. Analogue character movement whch is consistently thrown here has no purpose in 99.99 percent of games. Whats the point of analogue movement if games dont utilize it, if they dont take advantage of it ? It may feel better for console players, but thats about it. As its been pointed out, wsad (not wasd) gives you instant speed and directional change where a stick has dead zones. And wsad in combination with the mouse which is used for changing the camera serves the same granular adjustments as the stick does, but even better. And then you have all the keys around wsad for quick access and all the rest of the keys for more advanced functions in games, when on controllers stuff like contextual actions and wheels that pause the gameplay had to be invented because you dont have enough buttons so games have a limit to what they can have, gameplay wise.

These guys know what they are talking about.

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

For certain movements, especially in FPS, without question. Personally I don't even know how to bhop in something like Quake, but I highly doubt you could do it with a mouse/analog stick combo

Stutter stepping/jiggle peeking in CS:GO and Rainbow Six Siege would likely be less effective/doable on a stick.

You can strafe step with a controller. I'm guessing it would be easier with C+M for looking to the sides. But I don't have the game to test it. I've just seen it done with a controller alone.

Don't know about the others, they seem to be PC centric games and I can't find any vids of anyone using a controller for the movements. I don't own any of these games btw so this is just what I've seen. I can't say which is easier or if it is just as difficult and would need to get used to. These "techniques" are generally difficult in and of themselves in the first place.

Regardless, these are exploits. Not something that was an intentional design of movement or to take advantage of a setup and not something that everyone is going to be doing either. Except for the siege one. But you can do that on controller as well. I've done stuff like that on other shooters with a controller. I'm actually pretty sure this technique in siege originated on the console version.

But whether or not you can do these with controller as well, they are only specific techniques which you are NOT doing 100% of the time while playing and for not even a handful of games. And even then, only a small fraction of the user base is going to be utilizing them.

With the joystick you get full 360 degree movement and all the granularity that comes with it 100% of the time. For everyone.

In shooters and action games? You do realize keyboard and mouse offer infinitely more advanced movement possibilities than controllers right? I mean, you surely watched some high level unreal tournament or quake or tribes, right ?

To give you an example, since i feel you didnt get what im saying, Brothers A Tale of Two Sons is a game designed in a particular way that fully utillizes the strengths and options provided by a stick. Nearly every other game in existence DOES NOT. Wsad by itself gives you eight dirrections. By itself. In what game would you need that extra movement direction between 10 and a half o'clock and 12 o'clock ? Another point that i made which is ignored or not understood, you use the mouse for that very fine, very precise movement. You orient the camera with the mouse which gives you all the benefits that a stick does for movement direction.

Basically, most people are wrong in this topic becuse they split M/KB into two entities. Wsad is not worse than a stick for movement because no PC player uses just the wsad for movement. On a PC you move with wsad and mouse together. You can watch how a console player games with a pad, its almost exclusively the left stick and very aproximative, rare camera adjustments. On a M/KB setup, its reversed, the camera is used consistently, even for directional changes of the character - you dont press A if you want to go left, you move the mouse to that dirrection and you press forward.

Quake was a game that was designed entirely around keyboard. How many games these days are designed around it? I don't think multiplatform games would be.

And you have to sacrifice what you are looking at in order to gain the "same degree of movement" as a joystick. Not to mention that you also have to dedicate 2 fingers to it that could be sitting on other high priority buttons ready to press when needed.

To the last paragraph, you use the strengths of whatever tools you have in conjunction with each other. However, if one tool is lacking it makes you lean on the other more to get the job done if it will let you.

I agree that controller only players rely more on movement to adjust their aim. IMO This is because aiming precisely with a controller is a pain to do because of the joysticks weaknesses in that area and they need to use the left joystick to offset it. But I think the same is true for M+KB players. I think that WASD is weak for movement and PC players offset that weakness with the mouse and heavily rely on it instead.

With Controller plus mouse, like others have said and IMO, it's the best of both worlds. It eliminates the weaknesses and lets you use both strengths even more.

EDIT: I should say that this still doesn't make one better than the other for those who may have physical or mental strengths that utilize one or the other better. But that I think the potential is there. This obviously wasn't standard and still isn't so it would be dumb for anyone to say that it was absolutely superior when it hasn't been tested. Let alone games not being designed around this.

 

[SYNTAX182]

Damn, never even thought about this setup. Thanks for opening my eyes op.

 

[shira]

Idk why you were stressing or inducing shoulder pain from kbm frustration. That is definitely not normal

 

[Rizific]

i cant say i agree with you op. i couldnt imagine choosing an analog stick for movement in an fps over WASD. Ive been playing FPS games on the pc since the mid 90s and its pretty much second nature to me.

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

i cant say i agree with you op. i couldnt imagine choosing an analog stick for movement in an fps over WASD. Ive been playing FPS games on the pc since the mid 90s and its pretty much second nature to me.

I get where you are coming from. I felt the same way about shooters when I was a console player, only the other way around. I couldn't ever imagine playing an fps with KB+M since controller was second nature to me.

I kind of shoe horned myself into a place where I have no choice but to switch lol.

 

[muu]

Whatever works for you works, OP. I picked up KB+M when Quake came out, WSAD was absolutely not the standard when it first came out. I went through Quake ~ CS1.6 with FCXV and never had a problem. Also, inverted mouse since all us kids that grew up playing flight sims can't ever get it in their heads to move the mouse up to look up.

 

[zombieshavebrains]

Do you have a picture of your setup?

 

[Paragon]

"Does anyone know of a good mouse I can use without any surface available. Are these good enough at this point, or still full of kinks?"
A trackball.

I know that some people like them, but I generally don't.
I have tried many of the higher-end trackballs and the low resolution sensors that most of them use has been a big problem for me because they are designed to be used with mouse acceleration.
The main one I haven't tried yet is the CST L-Track, which uses a high resolution laser sensor (which itself is a problem), but they're expensive, I have been unable to try one anywhere, and since they have to be special-ordered here there's no option to return them.
It's a problem for most ergonomic input devices really. It shouldn't be surprising, but none of them use gaming-focused sensors.
I have a difficult time even finding basic information about them, like whether they have prediction enabled.

I haven't tried using it long-term on the desktop, but I think I'd recommend a Steam Controller over a trackball.
I certainly prefer it for gaming, because you can combine the touchpads with the gyro.

Some of the precision movements you need to make instaneously in fast shooters such as Quake would probably be nearly impossible to pull off with an analog stick. In fact, I'm having difficulty thinking of any FPS where analog/joystick + mouse would be an improvement, with the exception of the Descent series.

It's similar with 2d platformers too, where I choose digital over analog movement everytime when possible. I find the dpad much more comfortable for making snap movements.

One of the things which always surprised me is that Arkane's games don't have a walk key.
If you're using a keyboard, your only movement options are crouch, run, and sprint.
No walking unless you have an analog stick - but they don't do a good job supporting mixed gamepad + mouse inputs, with glyphs and vibration constantly switching on/off.

Games like Thief have four different movement speeds.
Splinter Cell is awkward using the mouse wheel to control movement speed.

It really doesn't matter the majority of games, but there are games where analog control is important.
At the same time, there are a lot of games which use an analog stick for control, but don't actually have analog movement.
If I recall correctly, NieR:Automata only has two movement speeds for example.

 

[chrisPjelly]

 

[Mr. Smiley]

This controller actually does work on PC:

I had forgotten about this. Does it still output Analog movement while mapped to WASD?

 

[Oppo]

I have one of those Move pickle controllers. wonder if I could bind that thing to my PC.

 

[YearoftheWooster]

I can't wait to play Overwatch with a left Joy-con and a mouse.

 

[KyleCross]

WASD is terrible and is the reason that, despite buying Overwatch on PC, I just continue to play it on PS4. I really don't understand how a universal standard for better movement with a mouse hasn't happened yet. There's a reason controllers moved on from a D-Pad for movement to a stick, PC decided it was just going to stay in the past in that regard.

 

[mindatlarge]

Interesting, never heard of this combo before. Glad it has helped with your pain.

 

[EricB]

I've been wanting this for years. A Wii nunchuck analog with more buttons and a mouse for aiming.

Splitfish has been selling a line of these things for years:

They've got controller/mouse combos for PC/Mac, PS3/4, and X-Box. I've had one since like 2008 or something. They are indeed fun to use.


This is the one I have. It is very unfortunately called the Fragnstein:

I got it for PS3 but it works on PC as well.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

"Not really sure why this is such a revelation, WASD has always been a fucking awful setup and its only chosen because its close to the left edge of the keyboard so your hand isnt activating like 20 keys when you rest it. Except the full length of the keyboard then pushes your mouse way the fuck away from you so you have to adopt this awful wide stance that throws your shoulder blades together"


Use a smaller keyboard.

More specifically, use a keyboard without a dedicated numpad on the right side. They're useful on occasion but they completely screw up alignment.

 

[drotahorror]

While the mouse is clearly superior to an analogue stick, the continued persistence of WASD over an analogue stick puzzles me

An analogue stick is designed to move a character in a 3D space, a keyboard is an implement designed for typing

It's cool that people enjoy WASD, but it's never been ideal

I mean, you literally have dozens upon dozens of combinations of keys at your fingertips with WASD.

 

[MasterOfPastures]

While the mouse is clearly superior to an analogue stick, the continued persistence of WASD over an analogue stick puzzles me

An analogue stick is designed to move a character in a 3D space, a keyboard is an implement designed for typing

It's cool that people enjoy WASD, but it's never been ideal

An analogue stick is training wheels for the gamers that have water in their veins. A keyboard, with the plethora of options just a micro distance away from your fingers, adds a complexity to gameplay input that a stick can only even concieve in a PCP fueled nightmare. WASD control is about timing and the correct apllication of sequence, rather than the loose-butthole that is an analogue stick. It takes time, and a perseverance worthy of an iron stomach.
But, whatever gets you through the game, I suppose.

 

[Huge Succeeded]

You can strafe step with a controller. I'm guessing it would be easier with C+M for looking to the sides. But I don't have the game to test it. I've just seen it done with a controller alone.

Don't know about the others, they seem to be PC centric games and I can't find any vids of anyone using a controller for the movements. I don't own any of these games btw so this is just what I've seen. I can't say which is easier or if it is just as difficult and would need to get used to. These "techniques" are generally difficult in and of themselves in the first place.

Regardless, these are exploits. Not something that was an intentional design of movement or to take advantage of a setup and not something that everyone is going to be doing either. Except for the siege one. But you can do that on controller as well. I've done stuff like that on other shooters with a controller. I'm actually pretty sure this technique in siege originated on the console version.

But whether or not you can do these with controller as well, they are only specific techniques which you are NOT doing 100% of the time while playing and for not even a handful of games. And even then, only a small fraction of the user base is going to be utilizing them.

Changing movement direction on a dime isn't a 'specific technique', it's something that a lot of players do in a lot of FPS games because it often enables advantages of all kinds. WSAD enables instant movement direction change, which is much more important than the granularity of an analog stick in practice, especially considering most shooters default to pretty binary walk/run schemes, as do most players. The granularity of an analog stick is most useful when paired with another analog stick since you can't make instant camera changes/turns in direction when aiming with an analog stick.

With the joystick you get full 360 degree movement and all the granularity that comes with it 100% of the time. For everyone.

I find that the granularity that a mouse enables, paired with the precise, instant, top-speed forward/backward/strafing movement that WSAD enables, allows me to play better than when I've used a PSMove/Mouse setup (I play FPS campaigns on console w/XIM4 that way). To the point where I've used the Move's d-pad for movement in Battlefield 4 and had better results. You should also consider the increased access I have to other in-game functions, and that, as mentioned elsewhere in the thread, there's comfortable and endlessly customizable gear that allows for further enhanced functionality. I use a Logitech G13 for a lot of games, on console and PC:

and I have the center buttons as a WSAD setup, with easy access to a bevy of other customizable buttons, as well as an analog stick that's generally best used for weapon switching or leaning (while performing other actions simultaneously).

I'm gonna grab Battlegrounds on console (I play a bunch on PC as it is) to play with some friends who don't own PCs, but I can take one look at my current control scheme (which is simply arranged nicer than it would be on a basic typing keyboard, much less a gaming keyboard) and know that even if I played with Move/Mouse, or Elite/Mouse, I couldn't replicate something as enabling or as natural as what I've already got here:

Quake was a game that was designed entirely around keyboard. How many games these days are designed around it? I don't think multiplatform games would be.

Control-wise? Uh, a lot of games benefit. I mean, a lot of FPS games make design concessions to analog stick constraints, but that's not to say that the advantages of instant directional movement don't crop up constantly in even PC versions of multiplat FPS games. Rainbow Six: Siege was a good example, but there's also games like Overwatch, Call of Duty, Titanfall... pretty much any multiplat shooter where the movement isn't heavily impacted by momentum.

And you have to sacrifice what you are looking at in order to gain the "same degree of movement" as a joystick. Not to mention that you also have to dedicate 2 fingers to it that could be sitting on other high priority buttons ready to press when needed.

edit: I genuinely don't understand what you mean. Having the same degree of movement isn't particularly important where FPS games are concerned. Having reliable and instant access to movement in the cardinal directions is more important, I'd say. Generally speaking.

And I don't see where dedicating two fingers to A and D respectively is actually an issue, considering the alternative is using two fingers on a controller. (Or four if you're holding an Elite controller with one hand, which, as someone who owns one of those, sounds awfully uncomfortable.)

To the last paragraph, you use the strengths of whatever tools you have in conjunction with each other. However, if one tool is lacking it makes you lean on the other more to get the job done if it will let you.

I just want to point out that WSAD isn't lacking in context. With WSAD, I can move at top speed in an instant, forward, backwards, or sideways relative to my character's position and current facing. The reliability of that movement enables further aim control and enables the mouse to be used more reliably as a camera control tool in a 3D space.

I agree that controller only players rely more on movement to adjust their aim. IMO This is because aiming precisely with a controller is a pain to do because of the joysticks weaknesses in that area and they need to use the left joystick to offset it. But I think the same is true for M+KB players. I think that WASD is weak for movement and PC players offset that weakness with the mouse and heavily rely on it instead.

WSAD isn't weak for movement and it shows in mid to high level FPS play even with multiplat FPS games, generally speaking. It's weak for movement in certain contexts, but FPS games where you control your facing with a mouse isn't one of them, because WSAD introduces some marked advantages in that context.

All in all, though, it's a design thing. I've played Uncharted 4 with WSAD and didn't like it. I'd rather play Gears of War 4 on PC with a controller/mouse combo (I'd just use a controller but boy does my aim suck w/analog these days). I think GTA V plays great w/M&K but I could see how an analog stick would be a better movement method in that particular game. It varies. I just don't think WSAD should be considered weak where FPS movement schemes are concerned.

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

Do you have a picture of your setup?

Sure, if it will help.

I don't try to hold the controller off the table. Actually, the way I hold it like I normally do when just using a controller. I found that I naturally wrap my pinky around the bottom and the knuckle of my middle finger resting on the back of the trigger box and that creates something like a stand with the other side of the controller resting on the desk. It really doesn't feel like I'm trying to keep it held up at all this way.

Splitfish has been selling a line of these things for years:

They've got controller/mouse combos for PC/Mac, PS3/4, and X-Box. I've had one since like 2008 or something. They are indeed fun to use.


This is the one I have. It is very unfortunately called the Fragnstein:

I got it for PS3 but it works on PC as well.

Oh man, these names are really cringey but I went to the site and the "fragchuck" looks almost perfect. I'd like the three buttons on the front to be spread out along the bottom so that my fingers could rest on them. A trigger would also be nice but I guess not necessary.

 

[grandwizard]

Every one of these threads there is always console gamers talking about how far superior analog sticks are for movement (because that's what they grew up on) and how terrible WASD is as a standard. And in every single one they ignore the insane movement abilities you have ONLY seen on PC games used with mouse and WASD.

Show me ONE analog stick console game with as impressive movement mechanics and skills as Quake, Tribes, Unreal Tournament, CS (surfing etc), Painkiller, HLDM, etc.

inb4 'those are exploits'

 

[Huge Succeeded]

inb4 'those are exploits'

in after, actually

 

[LordKasual]

Yeah no

i live and die by the pad in fighters / adventure games / platformers / literally anything i can use gamepad in

but for shooters??? KB+M is the only way to go


If you're bad at it, just endure being trash until the muscle memory kicks in

 

[Manzoon]

Had a buddy who could solo entire enemy teams in Soldier of Fortune 2 who used asdf for movement (superior because you never had to lift a finger) and space to shoot with his thumb. His run forward button was left click, f was either melee or grenade, can't remember now.

He cut his teeth in Quake with over 180 fov back in the day.

I tried this but wasd was ingrained to far at that point.

 

[Paragon]

I had forgotten about this. Does it still output Analog movement while mapped to WASD?

If it's mapped to keyboard inputs, it can't be analog.
The game needs to support combined gamepad + mouse inputs for analog movement.

However one trick that the Steam Controller has is an "outer ring binding" which can be set to a modifier key.
You don't get analog movement, but as an example you can have WASD and Shift+WASD mapped to different ranges on the analog stick for walking/running speeds.

WASD is terrible and is the reason that, despite buying Overwatch on PC, I just continue to play it on PS4. I really don't understand how a universal standard for better movement with a mouse hasn't happened yet. There's a reason controllers moved on from a D-Pad for movement to a stick, PC decided it was just going to stay in the past in that regard.

I think a lot of the problem that people used to gaming on consoles have is that they have learned to use their movement controls to assist with aiming - not just to move.
It's really obvious when you watch someone play an FPS game with a controller rather than KB&M - the person aiming with a controller is often strafing back and forth with the left analog stick to track their target, instead of using the right stick to track it.
When that's how you're used to aiming, I can see how it would be more important to have analog control for your movement.

KB&M players are used to aiming with a mouse, and mainly use the keyboard for movement.
The combination of 8-way movement with mouse look means that your movement isn't really as limited as that sounds.
Again: console players often walk in a straight line or strafe left/right when running around a level, while PC players will be walking forward or moving diagonally and turning with the mouse instead.

You can strafe step with a controller.

Not really.
Certainly not with an analog stick, and it would be slower with a d-pad since it's a combined input rather than separate keys on a keyboard.

Had a buddy who could solo entire enemy teams in Soldier of Fortune 2 who used asdf for movement (superior because you never had to lift a finger) and space to shoot with his thumb. His run forward button was left click, f was either melee or grenade, can't remember now.
He cut his teeth in Quake with over 180 fov back in the day.
I tried this but wasd was ingrained to far at that point.

I agree that WASD is not optimal, but yeah - it's far too ingrained in most people now to change.
Just like QWERTY is not optimal and Dvorak or Colemak are much better keyboard layouts.

 

[whalleywhat]

Is there some NeoGAF Strunk + White which says, "Never form a paragraph"?

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

I think a lot of the problem that people used to gaming on consoles have is that they have learned to use their movement controls to assist with aiming - not just to move.
It's really obvious when you watch someone play an FPS game with a controller rather than KB&M - the person aiming with a controller is often strafing back and forth with the left analog stick to track their target, instead of using the right stick to track it.
When that's how you're used to aiming, I can see how it would be more important to have analog control for your movement.

I agree with this, but I don't see it as a problem. It's just what naturally happens when dealing with weaknesses in one area. It's why movement is dependent on mouse aim with WASD and why so many rely completely on the mouse for aim and not WASD IMO.

I see no reason that a good movement solution can't work with or strengthen a good aim solution and vice versa. That is all I'm saying.

KB&M players are used to aiming with a mouse, and mainly use the keyboard for movement.
The combination of 8-way movement with mouse look means that your movement isn't really as limited as that sounds.
Again: console players often walk in a straight line or strafe left/right when running around a level, while PC players will be walking forward or moving diagonally and turning with the mouse instead.

I learned not to do this on console. At high level play anyway. Ziggin and zagging is imperative. Learning how to not just walk/jump straight and to aim while you are doing it. It IS a pain to do though with the right analogue stick for your aim. I've NEVER felt it was a problem with the joystick though.

This is also the exact advantage that I am seeing. This ability to move around like crazy while having the precision of the mouse for aim. C+M enhances this greatly. It was the first thing I noticed actually.

Another thing, with the Elite controller at least, you can adjust your curve. If you really wanted to you can adjust it so that there is almost no deadzone at all and can even make it so that you are instantly going full speed whatever direction you are slightly pressing if you want.

AGAIN, I want to reiterate that I'm not stating that this solution is absolutely superior even though it is for me personally. It would have to be standard and games designed with it in mind as well as the other methods in order to have any sort of consensus. Even then it wouldn't be popular on PC because a lot of people grew up using the keyboard and it's just always going to feel more natural to them.

I am fully aware how much people are attached to their keyboards and I completely understand it and why. I don't blame them, there is nothing wrong with it at all. I'm not calling for the death of the keyboard in gaming lol.

This is more pointed towards people in my situation coming from consoles and feeling frustrated. As many have pointed out, this is the beauty of PC, it can conform to your needs better than anything else.

And guys, I'm sorry but I can't address all of you, I have limited time/attention today, so I'm going to give priority to those that are being polite and seem reasonable.

 

[Budi]

My friend just showed me this last time I visited, says it's quite nice. Getting the Switch and having his hands far away from each other is a feature he really appreciated so the controller works in that sense too, not just to compliment a mouse.

It's Grifta morphing gamepad, created with the help of a Kickstarter. Unfortunately few hundred of backers allegedly haven't received theirs yet.

 

[Paragon]

I agree with this, but I don't see it as a problem. It's just what naturally happens when dealing with weaknesses in one area. It's why movement is dependent on mouse aim with WASD and why so many rely completely on the mouse for aim and not WASD IMO.

I'm not saying that it's a problem, but that I think it's why some console players struggle with WASD.

I see no reason that a good movement solution can't work with or strengthen a good aim solution and vice versa. That is all I'm saying.

Yes, but while analog movement allows for finer movement control, it also has the disadvantage of being a much slower input method.
A lot of people seem to dismiss that outright, claiming that analog is always superior, because movement with a d-pad is bad - when they're not the same thing.

Is there some NeoGAF Strunk + White which says, "Never form a paragraph"?

I assume that you're referring to my post.
Sorry, it's a bad habit I've picked up recently. I've noticed that people are much more receptive to large posts when broken up like that. People generally don't seem to like reading large paragraphs on computer screens; whether that's a desktop monitor or a mobile device, for a variety of different reasons.
Writing was never a strong point of mine, and it doesn't help that it's not really a skill that I use much outside of posting online. I feel like I have a tendency to write run-on sentences, use unnecessary or inappropriate punctuation etc.

 

[autoduelist]

"Does anyone know of a good mouse I can use without any surface available. Are these good enough at this point, or still full of kinks?"

A trackball.

hmmm... didn't think of a handheld trackball. Can someone recommend a good one? Wireless.

 

[Ricerocket]

I tried this and find it just doesn't work. WASD allows for quick jutters and stutter movements that you can't do with an analog stick which puts you on a predictable path for getting destroyed. It does sound convenient if you don't like keyboards but It puts you at a disadvantage if you think you can do this competitively, even in Overwatch.

The other thing is most games will toggle between pad + KBM and adjust icons and it just looks off using both.

 

[FLAguy954]

I'm glad that PC gamers have many choices in how they control their games.

I'm still a huge proponent of the Steam Controller. Trackball-like aim via trackpad for the win (and I get to remap WASD to the analog stick when I feel the need).

 

[Velikost]

You can strafe step with a controller. I'm guessing it would be easier with C+M for looking to the sides. But I don't have the game to test it. I've just seen it done with a controller alone.

Link? RJN holds forward while alternating between left and right. How would you do this on a stick...? I also think you're underestimating how quick dude was switching between left and right in the Siege video.

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

idk.... gonna try it with overwatch to see how it feels.

I am a PC gamer who switched over to Console gaming in during like snes - 360 days who then switched back to PC only and I gotta say....

I find WASD + spacebar very satisfying (for FPS). Especially with a mechanical keyboard. Cant see myself prefering C+M over K+M (for FPS....maybe TPS will be diff)

 

[InsaneTiger]

I grew up with KBM so it just comes natural and feels so right. Sorry you can't get used to it.

WASD FTW

 

[Weltall Zero]

haha, fuck.

Not every game will support this, beware. Some games switch between M+KB and controller mode based on which device you press buttons on. You might wanna get one of those keyboards with an analog:

What does that analog emulate? If it's a gamepad stick, you would run into the exact same problem you mention about switching controls; if it's keys, you lose the analog movement; and if it's a mouse, it's useless in combination with an actual mouse...

 

[dogen]

You can strafe step with a controller. I'm guessing it would be easier with C+M for looking to the sides. But I don't have the game to test it. I've just seen it done with a controller alone.

Don't know about the others, they seem to be PC centric games and I can't find any vids of anyone using a controller for the movements. I don't own any of these games btw so this is just what I've seen. I can't say which is easier or if it is just as difficult and would need to get used to. These "techniques" are generally difficult in and of themselves in the first place.

Regardless, these are exploits. Not something that was an intentional design of movement or to take advantage of a setup and not something that everyone is going to be doing either. Except for the siege one. But you can do that on controller as well. I've done stuff like that on other shooters with a controller. I'm actually pretty sure this technique in siege originated on the console version.

But whether or not you can do these with controller as well, they are only specific techniques which you are NOT doing 100% of the time while playing and for not even a handful of games. And even then, only a small fraction of the user base is going to be utilizing them.

I don't know about the other people here but in online shooters that kind of stutter strafing is second nature for me. I didn't even know there was a name for it.

In a quake style game especially, you're constantly and rapidly stopping and/or changing directions . Even in something slower like counter strike, you still want that ability, though you might not be using it as much. Actually, in up close gunfights, I probably use it just as much.

 

[Titanfool]

The nav controller is neat for casual Destiny and relaxing games that you can multitask to.

The keyboard is best for (to quote a friend) "attack mode" games.

I only played one PC shooter in high school and it basically taught me how to properly use a keyboard...typing and all. It was the Xbox controller that took the most getting used to. Post-college (and with much controller experience under my belt) I decided to get a XIM for R6 Siege. At first, the strafing seemed awkward as hell. I impulse purchased the nav controller because I was so frustrated.

Yeah, the stick is comfortable to move with, but the problem was that I had spent so much time learning how to assist my aim with precise stick movements. Because of the mouse, my accuracy had become excellent even without the use of movement. All of a sudden I was winning gunfights and challenging sight-lines that I never would have had confidence in.

Once I relearned the keyboard... my strafe game caught up with my accuracy game. My aim was informing and improving my movement...not vice-versa.

imo... one is strictly superior when you are doing something competitive. I'm sticking with the keyboard.

The A/D (of WASD) piston strafing is just too good.