Board games: complexity vs accessibility
- Thread starter fireflame
- Start date
If your rules explanation involves multiple phases per turn, and a bunch of different actions that players can take that they need to remember or at least be aware of, it probably isn't the game for people that play games once a month.
I save games like that for the weekly meetups I go to, because there are other "board game" people there. The more extreme stuff, like Tzolkin or Twilight Imperium, I'm loath to even bring to those, and will save for when I visit my friend who is into complex stuff.
This Onion article is far too on point for rules explanations I've done in the past when I incorrectly matched up game with audience, so I do my best to avoid that: Explanation Of Board Game Rules Peppered With Reassurances That It Will Be Fun
I save games like that for the weekly meetups I go to, because there are other "board game" people there. The more extreme stuff, like Tzolkin or Twilight Imperium, I'm loath to even bring to those, and will save for when I visit my friend who is into complex stuff.
This Onion article is far too on point for rules explanations I've done in the past when I incorrectly matched up game with audience, so I do my best to avoid that: Explanation Of Board Game Rules Peppered With Reassurances That It Will Be Fun
I've accepted the games I like will never interest anyone that has zero desire to put any effort into them but did find a good collect of games for the group of friends that don't mind a little rule book reading before hand.
I've had good luck with Level99 games.
Pixel Tactics
Exceed
I've had good luck with Level99 games.
Pixel Tactics
Exceed
Moose Biscuits
It would be extreamly painful...
Thanks for the thought: honestly, though, I think I was always a lost cause. Generally I enjoy doing a thing more than I enjoy thinking about a thing or ordering an abstract unit to do a thing; board games are never really going to match up for me. Even strategy or tactics games are out of my wheelhouse, I generally prefer videogames where I'm controlling the avatar doing something to a game where I'm ordering a unit to do something.
My favorite games tend to be relatively simple, short to play, and involve a large human component.
I highly recommend the following:
1) Codenames. Very easy to play, tons of replayability, and everyone likes it.
2) Mascarade. Lots of fun with the role switching mechanic. Simple economy game with deception mechanics.
3) Avalon. Probably my favorite game ever. Endlessly replayable. Basically a better version of Werewolf/Mafia....IMO. Takes a bit of experience to figure out the optimal setup for a particular group of people though.
I highly recommend the following:
1) Codenames. Very easy to play, tons of replayability, and everyone likes it.
2) Mascarade. Lots of fun with the role switching mechanic. Simple economy game with deception mechanics.
3) Avalon. Probably my favorite game ever. Endlessly replayable. Basically a better version of Werewolf/Mafia....IMO. Takes a bit of experience to figure out the optimal setup for a particular group of people though.
Rabid Dwarf 76
Member
While I now concede that Terra Mystica was a poor recommend I stand by Concordia. It's only ONE page of rules. How is that incredibly complex? How is it unforgiving? The scores are hidden till the very end of the game. You can only guess as to who is winning unless you are keep track of every card, every player is buying. I find that keeping scoring at the end keeps players engaged in the game till the very end.
Rudimental
Member
I love Agricola, but I'd suggest the new Family Version as a better choice for players to get into worker placement.
Just looked into these. Both seem like good contenders; thank you!
I have a friend who is really into these complex board games, and truth to be told, it's simply not fun for me. And I don't remember the rules for any of the games he's made me play, so yeah, lol. I just think such games offer a fundamentally different experience, which is of course perfectly valid. But if you're going to invite some filthy casual friends for board games and pizza, then you should stick to Uno, Monopoly, Pictionary, etc.
AbsolutBro
Member
This is a pretty fantastic post, I agree with everyth-
...
TI:3 is probably my favorite board game of all time. It's also my "sink or swim" game when people tell me they want a complex game. Basically if they tell me they've played Axis and Allies and want something more, TI:3 is my go-to. In general though, I agree; it can definitely cause option paralysis in players not familiar with at least A&A level games.
This is only a slight exaggeration. My first game took about 6 hours, which was with 4 or 5 new players + the game owner. Most of us had played Axis and Allies, so most of the moving parts weren't all that different.
Aaronrules380
Member
I just wanted to say that I'm pretty sure almost nobody plays Monopoly according to the rules as actually written in the rulebook
Since I'm going on holiday with my nieces (10 and 8) in a few weeks I put out a plea on the main boardgame thread for exactly this sort of thing - games that are simple enough for them to grasp, but engaging enough for adults to enjoy as well. After lots of suggestions and a bit of research, I went for a mix of strategy, skill and quizzing, with (in rough order of how difficult I expect them to be for them)
Doodle Quest/Loony Quest
Wits and Wagers (Family)
Sushi Go
Hey, That's My Fish
Hanabi
Forbidden Island
Machi Koro (I didn't know StoOgE was involved with this! I'm rather looking forward to it)
The last couple I really bought for my own collection, although I've seen a lot of suggestions that younger kids have been fine with them, so I'll be giving it a go.
Now that's a weird coincidence; I'll be at my parents' in France for part of the holiday, and when they bought the house there was a game tucked away in the barn, and I'm pretty sure it's this. I've never looked closely at it, but it sounds like it's worth taking a glance at when I'm over there!
Doodle Quest/Loony Quest
Wits and Wagers (Family)
Sushi Go
Hey, That's My Fish
Hanabi
Forbidden Island
Machi Koro (I didn't know StoOgE was involved with this! I'm rather looking forward to it)
The last couple I really bought for my own collection, although I've seen a lot of suggestions that younger kids have been fine with them, so I'll be giving it a go.
And now for one that I personally love, but is horribly out of print, and quite rare now a days...
If you enjoy auto racing, Formula De is the most amazing way to do a board game version of it. There was a US release a couple years back called Formula D, but there are a lot of changes there that may or may not be to player's liking. If you enjoy F1 racing at all, this is a game to own.
Now that's a weird coincidence; I'll be at my parents' in France for part of the holiday, and when they bought the house there was a game tucked away in the barn, and I'm pretty sure it's this. I've never looked closely at it, but it sounds like it's worth taking a glance at when I'm over there!
I think going from A&A to TI is fine, since they are similar genres and are both long games. But I definitely view TI as a step up from most stuff just due to the scale and time investment required. It takes a specific kind of person to want to play any game for 6-10 hours.
"I mean, the second turn will go faster once we all know what we're doing."
I love complex board games. Like, love them. I also love ridiculous crafting systems in RPGs though. With that said I live near one of the better board gaming stores in Colorado so it's usually easy to find like minded people. With that said there's stuff like Power Grid (this one's not even that bad, most people just don't like the premise) or the more intense borderline miniature wargaming games that I struggle to find people willing to pickup. I'm still looking for someone who'll play Leviathans with me and that's not crazy complex. I own Mage Knight but I'm afraid to open that one up
To that end, I'll often play single player games in those that allow it just to familiarize myself with games so I can teach them to other people without trying to learn it at the same time.
I'll echo the Small World sentiment for those looking for more interesting board games that are straightforward. Obviously Catan and Ticket to Ride are shoe ins. If you want to get into games like Arkham Horror there are games like Eldritch Horror which can be gateways and are generally less intimidating.
Ascension and Dominion are both quick to learn deck building games for those interested in those.
Edit: Just remembered Tsuro. This one was a hit with people who are intimidated by Risk, super easy to play and a lot of fun.
I love complex board games. Like, love them. I also love ridiculous crafting systems in RPGs though. With that said I live near one of the better board gaming stores in Colorado so it's usually easy to find like minded people. With that said there's stuff like Power Grid (this one's not even that bad, most people just don't like the premise) or the more intense borderline miniature wargaming games that I struggle to find people willing to pickup. I'm still looking for someone who'll play Leviathans with me and that's not crazy complex. I own Mage Knight but I'm afraid to open that one up
To that end, I'll often play single player games in those that allow it just to familiarize myself with games so I can teach them to other people without trying to learn it at the same time.
I'll echo the Small World sentiment for those looking for more interesting board games that are straightforward. Obviously Catan and Ticket to Ride are shoe ins. If you want to get into games like Arkham Horror there are games like Eldritch Horror which can be gateways and are generally less intimidating.
Ascension and Dominion are both quick to learn deck building games for those interested in those.
Edit: Just remembered Tsuro. This one was a hit with people who are intimidated by Risk, super easy to play and a lot of fun.
Rabid Dwarf 76
Member
My apologizes. You are very correct. Terra Mystica was a poor recommendation. Your comment about Kemet describes me perfectly, as I am into complex games, I can see how this has skewed my view of what is complex. I shall change my post.
I was complaining when I found a version of it on the BBC Micro that implemented property auctions for going against the usual rulebook, until I checked the rules and found out that that was absolutely the way the game was designed.
I can see why people stick to a small selection of games. It's an expensive and time consuming hobby.
My boyfriend loves board games and regularly gets new ones, but it certainly takes more time to learn a new game one of us hasn't played versus just grabbing one we already know. So if the group hasn't played a bunch of games already, it can be overwhelming to teach them three games in one night.
At work we started having board game happy hour. No one else has really played board games beyond the usual that you mentioned. Here's what we've done so far and they have been quite a hit. (Granted, a lot of them are more social/party games because of the size.) I've introduced at most two new games a night.
A Fake Artist Goes to New York
Hanabi
String Railway
Mascarade
The Resistance
My boyfriend loves board games and regularly gets new ones, but it certainly takes more time to learn a new game one of us hasn't played versus just grabbing one we already know. So if the group hasn't played a bunch of games already, it can be overwhelming to teach them three games in one night.
At work we started having board game happy hour. No one else has really played board games beyond the usual that you mentioned. Here's what we've done so far and they have been quite a hit. (Granted, a lot of them are more social/party games because of the size.) I've introduced at most two new games a night.
A Fake Artist Goes to New York
Hanabi
String Railway
Mascarade
The Resistance
UpperCaseN
Member
OP is correct in their assessment. I have 2 separate board game groups and my group of friends as a whole can be considered gamers. I have a whole bookshelf of games and guess what, the $80 huge box that takes an hour to set up where people won't understand the flow of the game until it's too late for them to be competitive NEVER hits the table nor do I care for it to. We lean towards light games where it can be casual and end with a medium level game to end the night. I shy away from expansions as well, they often add an extra layer to the game with new mechanics, enemy types, etc. I do want more of a game but I do not want to make it more complex. Use your best judgment.
FrontalMonk
Banned
Yeah, TI is the sort of game I always look at, go "Wow." and then move on with my life. Maybe some day, but not today.
Aaronrules380
Member
Yep, pretty much everyone I've encountered plays Monopoly with house rules, and doesn't even realize that they are house rules because nobody actually reads the monopoly rulebook lol
Secret Character
Member
Oh, that's awesome! If you're real lucky, there are some extra tracks in there. Some of the older tracks were licensed and probably won't be made again ever. Like I said, it's the best racing board game ever.
Agreed. A&A is actually what I consider to be a good gateway miniatures game. Advanced rules in 40K and Fantasy are a little difficult to grasp, but A&A is actually fairly simple to learn, I think. Once you start getting into complex miniature games, then complaints about complicated rules can be taken to 11. Some of the rules for more obscure historical games are just... mesmerizing in their complexity.
echoshifting
Banned
It's always kinda tricky asking board game enthusiasts for recs if you're just looking to get your feet wet. We tend to forget some of the things that make games complex or even simply off-putting to the average person. For example...Agricola is an excellent game, but it has a ton of pieces, a long rule book you will be glued to for at least the first game, and lots of options every turn. It is a very intimidating game for non-gamers, IME.
My advice, op, if you decide you'd like some recs (and I know you didn't really ask for any in your post) is to figure out what your group really enjoys/needs and ask specific questions. There are great games for every group, including games that are very easy to learn but develop a sense of complexity the more you play them.
Some examples of specific questions related to complexity:
-how long are the rules
-how long does it take to play
-how big is the game/how many pieces
-how many options does a player have on each turn
-is there an app I can learn the game with
-how much luck is involved vs how much strategy is involved
Just try to figure out which of these things matter the most to your play group and I bet you can find a couple perfect games for your group.
You can also track specific game publishers; some, like Blue Orange, tend to publish mostly games that are easy to learn.
My advice, op, if you decide you'd like some recs (and I know you didn't really ask for any in your post) is to figure out what your group really enjoys/needs and ask specific questions. There are great games for every group, including games that are very easy to learn but develop a sense of complexity the more you play them.
Some examples of specific questions related to complexity:
-how long are the rules
-how long does it take to play
-how big is the game/how many pieces
-how many options does a player have on each turn
-is there an app I can learn the game with
-how much luck is involved vs how much strategy is involved
Just try to figure out which of these things matter the most to your play group and I bet you can find a couple perfect games for your group.
You can also track specific game publishers; some, like Blue Orange, tend to publish mostly games that are easy to learn.
Yep. You should listen to StoOgE.
I have limited knowledge in this field but my favourite lightweight games are:
Sushi Go Party
Catan
Splendor
Patchwork
Carcassonne (GOAT)
I watched a video of Dixit earlier in the week and that seems like it might be fun for 4 or more players. You could probably explain the rules for that in 30 seconds.
I have limited knowledge in this field but my favourite lightweight games are:
Sushi Go Party
Catan
Splendor
Patchwork
Carcassonne (GOAT)
I watched a video of Dixit earlier in the week and that seems like it might be fun for 4 or more players. You could probably explain the rules for that in 30 seconds.
AngryPuppyEsq
Member
I'd love to play more board games but apart from one person my circle of friends wouldn't have had much interest and I'm not keen on going to a meet-up with strangers. However my friends have been kind enough to indulge me on occasion and we've had some fun nights.
I attempted to ease them into it with a gateway game and had some decent success with King of Tokyo but then a friend of mine went all in and brought 'A Game of Thrones: The Board Game' over one night and it was pretty harrowing. Even on a designated game night it takes a bit of corralling before we actually get down to the gaming and so we kicked off about 11pm and didn't finish until 5am. Everyone said they really enjoyed the first couple of hours, but the game hasn't made it back to the table since and there wasn't another game night for a decent while after that.
I attempted to ease them into it with a gateway game and had some decent success with King of Tokyo but then a friend of mine went all in and brought 'A Game of Thrones: The Board Game' over one night and it was pretty harrowing. Even on a designated game night it takes a bit of corralling before we actually get down to the gaming and so we kicked off about 11pm and didn't finish until 5am. Everyone said they really enjoyed the first couple of hours, but the game hasn't made it back to the table since and there wasn't another game night for a decent while after that.
I've been trying to design a board game to solve this very issue!
A few years back I tried getting into a D&D campaign with a long term friend but ended up getting stuck on set-up, tracking stats and struggling to generate fun - despite the opportunities of the format.
Eventually we just ended up playing a few rounds of Talisman - which was far easier to set up and get into, despite being far more limited in scope.
I guess the problem is complex board games try to aim for too much simulation and sophistication - which is entirely on the players onus to commit to. Meanwhile games like Monopoly and Risk have their mechanics simple (dice rolls, cards) or has rules baked into the game itself - which keeps things quick and easy to pick up.
Of course it's very much different from people to people - same as a game like Cards Against Humanity being a game who's entire rate of success is based on the people you play it with and their sense of humour.
A few years back I tried getting into a D&D campaign with a long term friend but ended up getting stuck on set-up, tracking stats and struggling to generate fun - despite the opportunities of the format.
Eventually we just ended up playing a few rounds of Talisman - which was far easier to set up and get into, despite being far more limited in scope.
I guess the problem is complex board games try to aim for too much simulation and sophistication - which is entirely on the players onus to commit to. Meanwhile games like Monopoly and Risk have their mechanics simple (dice rolls, cards) or has rules baked into the game itself - which keeps things quick and easy to pick up.
Of course it's very much different from people to people - same as a game like Cards Against Humanity being a game who's entire rate of success is based on the people you play it with and their sense of humour.
I had this conversation the other day. I've been trying to find games that are easy to learn to get people into tabletop gaming, and then down the line try to introduce other games that have a little more complexity to them. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Games I start with:
Spy Alley
Can't Stop
No Thanks
Cash and Guns 2nd edition
Wits and Wagers
Games I introduce later:
7 Wonders
Machi Koro
Race for the Galaxy
Dominion
Unfair
Games I start with:
Spy Alley
Can't Stop
No Thanks
Cash and Guns 2nd edition
Wits and Wagers
Games I introduce later:
7 Wonders
Machi Koro
Race for the Galaxy
Dominion
Unfair
hydrophilic attack
Member
After a certain point, further complexity doesn't really improve a game, regardless of how much time is needed for explanation, or set-up or whatever. Designers should stop before reaching this point.
I feel like the perfect balance between complexity and accessibility is found in a game like Quantum.
The movement, battle and victory condition rules are quite simple to pick up in theory, however, when you marry all of the systems together your opportunity space is very large for making interesting decisions.
It's the type of game where I teach it to people and they pick up the basics very quickly, and each time they play they learn lessons to optimize their play in later games. The fact that is has very few pieces, easy set up, and easy-to-access information available on all of the dice/player boards makes it to me a game that can accommodate a wide skill curve.
The movement, battle and victory condition rules are quite simple to pick up in theory, however, when you marry all of the systems together your opportunity space is very large for making interesting decisions.
It's the type of game where I teach it to people and they pick up the basics very quickly, and each time they play they learn lessons to optimize their play in later games. The fact that is has very few pieces, easy set up, and easy-to-access information available on all of the dice/player boards makes it to me a game that can accommodate a wide skill curve.
The rule of thumb is that board games don't have to be complex to be engaging, and the seemingly simple games aren't always ideal for a casual gathering. There's been a huge renaissance in board games over the last decade or so, and it'd be a shame to miss out on all the new titles. Just stick to the ones that are mechanically simple and you should be fine. Go on to the more complex games if you have a play group that's interested in that kind of thing.
See something like "Lords of Vegas" for a modern take on Monopoly that skips a lot of its shortcomings.
This is one of the reasons why Monopoly is a terrible game. Even worse, most of the common house rules increase the play time so they make a bad game even worse. It's best experienced by following the rules exactly as written but Monopoly will still be a bad player elimination game that takes too long to play.
See something like "Lords of Vegas" for a modern take on Monopoly that skips a lot of its shortcomings.
There's nothing wrong with complexity. There are a number of well-designed complex games, with strong fanbases who enjoy playing them, but it's not for everyone. Just because I like it doesn't mean someone I play it with will.
There's, like, 500-1000 board games released each year, and a giant chunk of them land in a Catan-ish range of complexity vs. accessibility.
It can be hard to find games that an entire group of friends likes. The core "gateway games" tend to have a wide enough range of appeal that they have the best odds, even if "enthusiasts" think they are too simple and or too random.
My list of "standard" gateway games (+ denotes slightly more advanced, - denotes a bit simpler):
Things to help manage complexity:
- Never teach a game "cold". One player must always have played the game before. No doing a run where everybody is trying to learn from the instructions.
- Teach a game in smaller groups. Jumping straight to a five-player game when four players are new is assured to make at least one or two people feel like the game is too slow, and then they'll never play it again.
- Don't start long games late, or it will be a miserable drag.
- Don't teach these games when people having more than one drink. They require focus.
- Discourage crippling Analysis Paralysis. People that mull forever, even while learning, are super frustrating to play with.
I know that anyone that plays a shitload of RPGs or MOBAs will be able to grasp games like Terra Mystica or Scythe, but there need to be the right conditions for it.
It can be hard to find games that an entire group of friends likes. The core "gateway games" tend to have a wide enough range of appeal that they have the best odds, even if "enthusiasts" think they are too simple and or too random.
My list of "standard" gateway games (+ denotes slightly more advanced, - denotes a bit simpler):
- Catan
- Carcassone
- Ticket to Ride
- Dominion
- Splendor
- King of Tokyo -
- Pandemic (Co-op)
- Forbidden Island (Co-op)
- Alhambra +
- Stone Age +
- Love Letter -
- Hanabi + (Co-op, but has a weird strategic nuance).
- Sushi Go Party
Things to help manage complexity:
- Never teach a game "cold". One player must always have played the game before. No doing a run where everybody is trying to learn from the instructions.
- Teach a game in smaller groups. Jumping straight to a five-player game when four players are new is assured to make at least one or two people feel like the game is too slow, and then they'll never play it again.
- Don't start long games late, or it will be a miserable drag.
- Don't teach these games when people having more than one drink. They require focus.
- Discourage crippling Analysis Paralysis. People that mull forever, even while learning, are super frustrating to play with.
I know that anyone that plays a shitload of RPGs or MOBAs will be able to grasp games like Terra Mystica or Scythe, but there need to be the right conditions for it.
matt360
Member
I love Talisman. In fact, it's the game that got me into board games. Whenever I play, I always fudge the rules a bit to make it go faster (less points needed for trophy exchanges). I even have the mobile version and play it on the bus every now and then.
What kind of criticism does it get?
Affeinvasion
Member
Tom Vasel, probably the most popular board game reviewer/ambassador, has just recently started a video series that takes old broken ass board games and gives recommendations things like 10 games better than Monopoly.
This playlist only has three of those videos, but he's made a few more if you search for them on the dice Tower channel.
10 Games Better Than...: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOlRvTbmD6tKGBaRZ9Ke5daOp0-8pIEtJ
This playlist only has three of those videos, but he's made a few more if you search for them on the dice Tower channel.
10 Games Better Than...: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOlRvTbmD6tKGBaRZ9Ke5daOp0-8pIEtJ
One of the reasons I went for FI (and Hanabi) in the list of games I'm planning to try with my nieces is that I don't think that they'll have ever seen a co-operative game before, and it'd be a new experience for them.
TimeEffect
Member
So many complicated board games I wish I could play, but I just dont have the friends to do so
Affeinvasion
Member
Depending on where you live there is probably a board gaming group. Go to a local board gaming store to inquire about gaming groups or open game nights. There's also websites like Meetup that can help you find a group.
DeviantBoi
Member
Can anyone recommend a complex game for at least two people that doesn't require knowing English?
That means, no cards with text, basically.
Ticket to Ride, for example, is perfect, but I'd like something more complex.
That means, no cards with text, basically.
Ticket to Ride, for example, is perfect, but I'd like something more complex.
Terra Mystica has no text at all, I believe. That is a "heavy" game though in terms of complexity (4 out of 5 on Board GAme geek, where Ticket is a 2).
Alhambra is slightly more complex than Ticket, with no text.
Splendor is again slightly more complex than Ticket, with no text.
Out of the box card games like Sushi Go and Kittens in a Blender are a great place to start.
I'll also echo King of Tokyo. Enough depth to be fun but also incredibly easy to understand and since it's a dice game there's enough random chance that you really can't get upset making it good for families. There's even a more advanced version called King of New York if you enjoy it but want a bit more.
I'll also echo King of Tokyo. Enough depth to be fun but also incredibly easy to understand and since it's a dice game there's enough random chance that you really can't get upset making it good for families. There's even a more advanced version called King of New York if you enjoy it but want a bit more.
Ticket to ride and Carcassonne are perfect as accessible games. Both deserve to be on the same level as monopoly etc as something the whole family can easily understand and play. It's disappointing that they don't get more breakout mainstream success
Affeinvasion
Member
https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/182316/language-independent-games
This list is a couple of years old but it's got some great games on it. Most games designed in Europe use icons on cards so that they can just print one game for all of Europe and just have to print the instructions in different languages.
Forbidden island and hey! That's my fish are great with kids.
Never heard of machi koro, may need to take a look see
antiquegamer
Member
I love Concordia and probably my favorite game (that no one seem to want to play even my die-hard board game group) but I have to agree with Stooge here. Concordia while easy to learn and to teach the game is really unforgiving for newcomer let alone those that are brand new to hobby board gaming. You have to keep in mind that people that are new to this style of board game has no concept of end game scoring, how to expand, how to build efficiency engine etc. We played Concordia couple weeks ago and the person new to the game (but not to this hobby) came in dead last because he has no idea how scoring would be. We ask him at the end what he think and he said he didn't like the game that much because end game scoring. I recommended the group before we played to do scoring round but the owner of the game and another experience players were against it. Poor guy probably not going to try Concordia again.
I also mention earlier that my regular game group shun Concordia because the games that they played, they had similar experience where they got completely destroyed by season Concordia players and they never want to play it again. The few times that I get people to play Concordia, I always make sure to do scoring round so people will see how the scoring will go at the end and that cards you buy is as important as expanding your territory.
Anyway, yeah, I admire you excitement for the hobby but living with non-gaming wife and family, I have learn my lesson of teaching them super-heavy complex game. I luck out into finding Ticket to Ride (from Xbox 360 arcade many years ago) and discovered gateway games for people in my family that are not into heavy gaming. Also keep in mind many people even after several gateway games are also never going to move up to anything more complex. My wife is a prime example, she is happy staying at Splendor, Five Tribes complexity and have no desire to play anything more complicate.
DeathoftheEndless
Crashing this plane... with no survivors!
They're popular, even if they aren't mainstream. You can find them in stores like Target and Toys R' Us and they both have a ton of versions/expansions.
Rabid Dwarf 76
Member
I know a lot of language independent games that are more complex but I don't want to over do it again with my recommendations so let me ask you some questions. When you say complex what do you mean? What games do you enjoy but wish there was more to them? Is there a time frame that is too long or too short for you? Is there a specific game play mechanics or themes you like?
StoOgE has already covered the bases here.
Stone Age is likely an even better choice. Faster, simpler, and more entertaining (dice + theme).
Race for the Galaxy is a complex card game that uses icons for everything (some cards with less-frequently used icons also have text explanations, but the icons alone are sufficient). It's excellent with two players (and also great with more).
Talisman is both lengthy and random, and also features limited decision making and minimal player interaction.
Stone Age is likely an even better choice. Faster, simpler, and more entertaining (dice + theme).
Race for the Galaxy is a complex card game that uses icons for everything (some cards with less-frequently used icons also have text explanations, but the icons alone are sufficient). It's excellent with two players (and also great with more).
Talisman is both lengthy and random, and also features limited decision making and minimal player interaction.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Be careful with expansions, don't do what I did and just get ALL the expansions (that are out for Carc 2.0) and then jumble them together and try to play with them all. It turns fun, light, fast Carc into a three hour slog constantly arguing and referencing rules.
Or you end up in a situation where the cathedral city you've been carefully building for several turns is ruined by the dragon, and the guy who got lucky and drew 3 Japanese Temples wins by 150 points.
If you want an even lighter Carc, there's also Qwirkle.