Westbahnhof
Banned
Did you forget how Croatia wasn't doing fine at all, at first?
Because that is important. Things that happened before they started "doing fine".
You can't ignore what this "independence at any price" could mean.
Catalonia to split from Spain within 48 hours of secession vote
- Thread starter LordOfLore
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Did you forget how Croatia wasn't doing fine at all, at first?
Because that is important. Things that happened before they started "doing fine".
You can't ignore what this "independence at any price" could mean.
deathkiller
Member
Yes, the legal way would be to change the Constitution to make it legal.
cromofo
Member
We're not, we're fucked.
Not that I want Yugoslavia back or anything like that, it's just that our country is a mess. But that's largely our fault.
intheinbetween
Member
Exactly, and actually its about time to change it as it needs to be updated with major changes
Westbahnhof
Banned
marcbret87
Member
To the people complaining about the response from the central government: what did they expect? The government in Catalonia has clearly been taking steps towards independence despite the fact that their majority in parliament is not even enough to change the terms of the Estatut d'Autonomia. Now they want to organize a referendum and they claim they will declare independence if they win. Honestly, I would like to see what would happen if something like that was happening in France or Germany.
The principle of self determination of peoples is a core pillar of International Law and Human Rights, recognised by the UN and the EU.
The actions of the Spanish government, whether legal or not in Spain, are a clear and flagrant violation of this principle.
Hardly surprising, given Spain's tenuous and halting departure from Fascism only a few decades ago and the continuing fervour of Spanish Nationalism, but incredibly worrying.
The actions of the Spanish government, whether legal or not in Spain, are a clear and flagrant violation of this principle.
Hardly surprising, given Spain's tenuous and halting departure from Fascism only a few decades ago and the continuing fervour of Spanish Nationalism, but incredibly worrying.
Crow Pudding
Member
The police just confiscated 9 million bailots for the referendum.
The more probable scenario is that the referendum will be cancelled and then will follow a plebiscite election. With all this repression from the central state, it's likely this time the pro indepent side will win with wider margin than last time.
The more probable scenario is that the referendum will be cancelled and then will follow a plebiscite election. With all this repression from the central state, it's likely this time the pro indepent side will win with wider margin than last time.
cromofo
Member
Let's say that tourism is the only thing keeping us afloat.(18-19% GDP)
Young and educated people are leaving the country in droves. I read that 100k left in the last year or two. In a country of just over 4 million people, that's huge.
We'll become a country of pensioners with no one to support them. Oh and we're in debt at around 60 billion € or something(80%+ GDP). It's just postponing the inevitable.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
They are taking steps to allow a democratic vote. That's what are the detentions are for, to not allow democracy take place in catalonia.
Wafflecakes
Member
The vote will be anything but democratic since it is not legitimate and only people who support succession are going to be bothered to vote in a fraud election.
DukeLongfellow
Member
Fucked in the sense that really, REALLY great tourism options are keeping us well afloat. Take that away and we are in big fucking trouble.
Regardless, due to the same political parties doing the same types of things (talking about politics as far back as WWII) as well as the economy not significantly improving (general lack of a sense of progression) younger people are emigrating in thousands every month. I mean, why would a doctor or any kind of medicinal worker try to go for a job he is likely not to get in years when he could get one in, say, Germany in a matter of weeks and be paid 4 times as much? (Same for IT workers and other quality professions)
The fact is also that the more the younger people (usually with progressive views) leave, the more we are left the older conservative base that votes for the current parties. And it is seemingly a no win situation.
Honestly, this country fascinates me from a cultural and historical standpoint but that is not stopping me from actively looking outward as well.
A Youtuber said an applicable statement: "Nowhere in the world will you find a more unusual combination of unconditional goodness and mind-numbing insanity as here."
I didn't say that at all. Go back and read what I actually said....no EU citizen can be stripped of their European citizenship by any authority. The referendum is to leave Spain, not the EU. I really hope this is the last time I'll have to explain this.
Self-determination only applies to former Soviet countries apparently in the minds of some here. About as anti-democratic as can get.
Wafflecakes
Member
I am very unfamiliar with the way this sort of stuff works with the EU but... I am skeptical of the idea that a newly invented country gets grandfathered in to the EU organization.
Is that really how it works?
What incentive does the EU have to allow it since it will just anger Spain, a much bigger fish.
MadJackChurchill
Banned
And yet still isn't a recognized official language under the EU.
Charles Brandon
Member
Having been through these issues ad nauseum with the Scottish referendum, I think your position is, at best, arguable. Just like with Brexit, there are no hard and fast rules because these scenarios were never envisaged.
Theonik
Member
Each country only gets to nominate one language as their official language. By that notion English stops being an official EU language when the UK leaves in 2 years.
If they were to leave and still had their EU passports (such as Spanish one) the citizens would have access to the rest of the countries.
However, Catalonia would be an independent country that had not signed the EU accords (as Spain would be the country getting that place) and would be out of it, as it is a third country which would mean hard border, no Schengen and of course no free trade zone.
An example would be that of Northern Ireland in the case of hard brexit. Most people would have the irish passport which would still allow then to access the EU but the country will not be in the EU, simple as that.
The referendum is to leave Spain and all the international things that that means (such as leaving the UN (needing to apply again), the NATO and of course the EU). The citizens will probablh be granted double citizenship but Catalonia as a country would not be part of the EU until they go through the process again.
Westbahnhof
Banned
Yeah, no. I'll have to keep digging I'm afraid.
So in your mind, a Spanish person's EU citizenship is tied to the person, and not to their Spanish citizenship?
If that's the case, if I, being Austrian, choose to become legally Canadian, do you believe I'll still be an EU citizen?
Charles Brandon
Member
Have Ireland nominated Gaelic then?
Again I'm not talking about automatic EU membership for Catalonia I'm merely stating no European can be automatically stripped of their EU citizenship.
Theonik
Member
Yes, because you can only nominate one but the UK already nominated English so for countries that share languages you can do that to get around it. Then you have Belgium that nominated no language to avoid having to deal with the trouble. (also because the Netherlands and France kinda took care of it already)
Wafflecakes
Member
...but as the person above said... isn't it pretty close to moving to a different country and gaining citizenship there?
How is it any different than someone moving to the US and becoming a US citizen. Would the person be able to keep their EU citizenship in the US?
Green Yoshi
Member
You are part of the European Union and tourism is booming because of the fear of terrorist attacks in other countries on the Mediterranean. But tourism was strong before already. I was pleasantly surprised when I visited Croatia in 2000.
Fair point, but the independance movement in Catalonia has no guns or military arm like the ETA in Basque Country.
Westbahnhof
Banned
Irish Gaelic, Gaeilge yes.
Beautiful and weirdly spelled words.
Charles Brandon
Member
And yet, with Scotland, it was accepted (by both sides IIRC) that they would be and that Scotland would have to reapply. The debate was about how quickly that would happen, if Scotland would have to (and be able to) pass the tests and whether Spain would block their re-entry.
Theonik
Member
Presumably they'd be allowed to be dual citizens of the Kingdom of Spain and the Anime Republic of Catalonia.
Wafflecakes
Member
Ah. Ok.
That depends on Spain allowing dual citizenship right? I don't see why they wouldn't allow it, but still.
It is easy guys, if they accept the spanish double nationality they are in, if they dont, they decide by their own accord to forfeit that right. If there is no double nationality treaty, then they get to decide which nationality to get, if they choose catalonian over spanish, they decided to forfeit the european citizenship. Not that complicated.
They are not kicked out of their rights, they decide to forfeit them.
They are not kicked out of their rights, they decide to forfeit them.
Although I agree that you can't do anything else right now to stop this farse of referendum, it's also true that the only solution for the Catalonian problem is a proper pacted referendum, but PP doesn't want to.
Hell, PP doesn't want to do anything at all.
Shit has been escalating throught these years thanks to PP, and they're just making it worse without wanting a true solution for this.
Fuck now I really need to leave Catalonia lol
veryslowhand
Banned
Wonder if an independent Catalonia could support a working social security system, more with the economic debacle independence would cause.
RocknRola
Member
Have they (the parties/legal forces of the various regions) been given the chance to even try to make changes at such a level? Changing a Constitution is no easy task in any country and when it's done, it's never done so lightly, usually requiring support from all the major factions.
Is that a feasible possibility in Spain or would any such attempts just result in those changes being denied again and again?
MadJackChurchill
Banned
Being unable to speak your own mother tongue publicly for almost 40 years.
Theonik
Member
Every Catalan citizen atm would also be a Spanish citizen. They won't lose their citizenship either way just gain a new Catalan citizenship. Going forward though the two countries would have to work out how to handle the situation. I can't see a situation that Spain doesn't offer Catalan citizens an option to apply for Spanish citizenship though.
yeah but there will be a lot of back and forth pedaling..
"oh, you want to retain spanish citizenship? ... didn't you just say you don't want to be spanish anymore?"....
intheinbetween
Member
The most voted party, PP, will do their best to avoid changing the constitution as it benefits them, but if the rest of the parties unite and push hard they will have no other choice but to accept it.
Right now, not possible, the parties that want to change the Constitution don't have enough votes, PP blocks everything about it.
marcbret87
Member
Bullshit, they are not even following the rules in terms of sending people the warning for the a vote. How do you expect a vote in such conditions will yield anything credible? And before you say anything, think how on earth La Generalitat is going to grab independence if they cannot even organize a vote without the central government derailing it
You are very confused, obviously. EU is a political and economical union of states. A treaty, if you want. Only the signing countries are part of it. Spain is a part of EU. Catalonia, once independent from Spain is a new country and not part of the said treaty.
It's you right to want independence, but don't live in the fantasy land or promote pure lies.
Edit: I saw now the follow up answers. So yeah, if you keep your Spanish citizenship you're still a EU citizen. If Spain allows double citizenship, then you could also be citizen of Catalonia. Don't see how will that help Catalan economy though.
marcbret87
Member
The EU has already said many times that an independent Catalonia would be automatically out of the union. The same was said to Scotland before their vote. People can believe whatever they want, but the position from the EU on this is clear.
RocknRola
Member
Huh. This is quite the pickle to solve then. At least with PP having the majority rule. Given that the last couple of elections showed a very divided opinion among the Spanish it doesn't seem like something that can happen in the near-ish future.
Well in any case here is hoping things don't escalate into unwanted levels of anger between both sides.
marcbret87
Member
Do you think Spain will allow 7 million people to have double nationality with a neighbouring? These people would have access to their healthcare system, vote in elections... Honestly, that would be ridiculous. But then again, I heard many pro-independence people saying that they would be able to keep their passport because the Spanish constitution says that you cannot be stripped of your nationality. Yes, the same Spanish constitution that they are purposefully ignoring in pursuing independence.
So the current modus operandi of Spain's government seems to be "If they want to paint us as borderline fascists, best to act the part". I'm not quite sure why they think this solves anything.
What better way to get rid of an independence movement than an improper referendum that's either boycotted by a large population or ends in favour of staying with Spain?
But sure, if you actually want to drive people towards support of independence, there are probably few better ways to do so.
What better way to get rid of an independence movement than an improper referendum that's either boycotted by a large population or ends in favour of staying with Spain?
But sure, if you actually want to drive people towards support of independence, there are probably few better ways to do so.
Thats what I understood as well. Interesting times. Though Catalonia is bigger than say a country like Luxembourg, anything is possible.
marcbret87
Member
Yes, you can wait until you have a proper majority. A 72-63 majority with 48% of the vote is not enough to force the issue. But of course, with the things set in motion the Catalan politicians cannot do that, but it would be the most logical step. If support for independence reaches 60-70% then it will be pretty much unstoppable.
A lot of EU states don't allow double citizenship. So if Spain wants to enforce the same rule it means that anybody who gets a Catalan citizenship can have his Spanish one revoked.
marcbret87
Member
How exactly is the government being fascist? I don't like the Popular Party at all, but what did you expect them to do? The referendum is illegal. I repeat once again, what do you think would happen in France or Germany if a part of their country was acting like the Catalan government?
intheinbetween
Member
I can't see a pro-independence catalonian citizen willing to keep the spanish citizenship
Charles Brandon
Member
What they really should do is to do whatever is necessary to make a real referendum possible. If there really is a majority of Catalonians that want their own country, then they should be granted the opportunity to prove it, under conditions that will ensure a fair vote and allow both sides to present their arguments to the people. Refusing to countenance this is clearly proving to be counter-productive and is going to lead to unofficial vote for secession, which is then going to cause holy hell when it is ignored.
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