(Ars Technica) Loot boxes have reached a new low with Forza 7’s “pay to earn” option

Yeah now time to get good and race on highest difficulty to get that 100% credit boost. Skill still required so I'm sure you can manage.

Is this really your argument in defence of them removing the credit boosts for running without assists? "Git gud"?

What about those who only want to play online? How do they go about getting credit boosts when they are not racing against the AI?
 
This whole post has me confused and shows the need of transparent and honest reviews. These loot boxes sound like a real issue if it takes a crazy amount of time to get them or they only open up to give things like a paint job. Is the article in op just based off the possibility of how bad loot boxes can be or is it just each experience will vary?

They give you cosmetics like racing suits, mods and legendary cars which are the same as normal but give you 30% credit boost when you use them and only box with legendary cars us expensive.
 
This whole post has me confused and shows the need of transparent and honest reviews. These loot boxes sound like a real issue if it takes a crazy amount of time to get them or they only open up to give things like a paint job. Is the article in op just based off the possibility of how bad loot boxes can be or is it just each experience will vary?

The loot system is bad, but I won’t complain until the Token System gets flung our way...then we will see how much money they want from us!
 
This whole post has me confused and shows the need of transparent and honest reviews. These loot boxes sound like a real issue if it takes a crazy amount of time to get them or they only open up to give things like a paint job. Is the article in op just based off the possibility of how bad loot boxes can be or is it just each experience will vary?

It's based on how loot boxes are luck based items, and in the industry we are in there is absolutely no transparency with drop rates or chances. Quite unique for a form of gambling, as if regulated games developers would have to display odds. Blizzard almost had a seizure at China forcing them to display drop rates they went as far to find a way to exploit the Chinese system of law and get around having to keep the drop rates visible.

Add to that the changes to VIP where bonus credit is now consumable rather than a sort of perk for you spending MORE money upfront on the Ultimate Edition of the game. Or buying VIP as a standalone addon (if this were possible in previous games). Apparently turning off assists used to give extra credit as well, and now that is nerfed.

The major issue for reviews is as above too, the purchasable credits in-game store is being held back until reviews are all finished and on metacritic so most of the journalists just ignore them/don't comment on them coming at a TBA date. A really scummy tactic more developers and publishers are doing as journalists care about hour 0/day 1 clicks and get reviews out asap. Even if a review score is changed later on metacritic seem to have a policy where they will not update review scores to reflect a change on a website. Devs/pubs are exploiting that.

This industry being scummy and fucky all round, whilst some gamers bend over backwards to defend the franchises they love turning into something you'd expect to see from a F2P mobile game. Not a $60 game, let alone a $100 game if you're buying the Ultimate Edition. A game with a season pass on top to boot, and any other DLC sold separately from the season pass.
 
...how?

I'm Tier 9 in Forza loyalty rewards, almost Tier 10 (which is really fucking high), and the credit reward it gives me for Forza 7 is 225,000 credits. He got 9 million credits in a day or two from Forza Rewards? I'm calling bullshit here.


Im tier 10 and got 350k, Rewards are not the reason why that guy had 9mil. Money is not hard to come by in this game. I have over 40 cars and a few hundred grand and im not even half way through the 2nd set of championships. Ive also only used 3 mods total. For most people, this whole thing will be a non issue.
 
Forza rewards were nerfed years ago lol I guess you don't play forza much.

And no, I'm not using vip mods, just regular mods that I got in the game.

Again, not true. For years I've reguarly logged in and received credits even when our Xbox was in storage. Are you talking about mid-gen 360 days? Jesus...

Edit: beaten lol.

Sorry guys/girls, I'm going to return to these posts because:

That’s as many as 25,000,000 in-game credits to start your Forza Motorsport 6 career!

https://www.forzamotorsport.net/en-us/news/fm6_loyalty_rewards

So actually no, the rewards nerf is more recent than the 360 days.
 
Is this really your argument in defence of them removing the credit boosts for running without assists? "Git gud"?

What about those who only want to play online? How do they go about getting credit boosts when they are not racing against the AI?

I have no argument cause I have no problem with it. I'm not gonna waste my time on something that doesn't bother me. Most people in this thread won't even buy Forza and never had any intentions to do so.

They just found out that some guy took a dump in the middle of the street and all came to tell him how disgusted they are and how much it bothers them that the dump is in the middle of the street they never took before.
 
It does make me wonder just how far devs need to go before these things are universally derided.

Not only have they taken away the option for me to earn more in game credits by giving myself more of a challenge behind (potentially) paid loot crates and the games economy has been tuned to make loot crate more appealing , there is also the legitimacy of completely unregulated gambling.

No doubt these things make money, they wouldn't do it otherwise, but it doesn't make it any less scummy.
 
It does make me wonder just how far devs need to go before these things are universally derided.

Not only have they taken away the option for me to earn more in game credits by giving myself more of a challenge behind (potentially) paid loot crates and the games economy has been tuned to make loot crate more appealing , there is also the legitimacy of completely unregulated gambling.

No doubt these things make money, they wouldn't do it otherwise, but it doesn't make it any less scummy.

There were people outside a midnight Launch for FIFA 18 who spent £80 on Fifa Ultimate Team Points BEFORE they got the game!
 
There were people outside a midnight Launch for FIFA 18 who spent £80 on Fifa Ultimate Team Points BEFORE they got the game!
I know, I can't get my head around it.

There is either too reasons, one because they want too, or two, because the games are designed with enough physcological hooks to make certain people think they want too.
 
Sorry guys/girls, I'm going to return to these posts because:



So actually no, the rewards nerf is more recent than the 360 days.

It's june 2015 how is that recent? And that was second nerf. First they gave you credits per reward level, then they changed it to per cars owned in each game, and then they changed the amount of it.
 
I have no argument cause I have no problem with it. I'm not gonna waste my time on something that doesn't bother me. Most people in this thread won't even buy Forza and never had any intentions to do so.

They just found out that some guy took a dump in the middle of the street and all came to tell him how disgusted they are and how much it bothers them that the dump is in the middle of the street they never took before.

A lot of people are getting involved because this issue is bigger than Forza. It's about the precedent it sets for a hobby that most people on this board are passionate about. It's a problem that is getting worse and worse and is gradually making its way across many different franchises and genres in different forms. It needs to be talked about. Sorry if it hurts your feelings.

It's june 2015 how is that recent? And that was second nerf. First they gave you credits per reward level, then they changed it to per cars owned in each game, and then they changed the amount of it.

2015 isn't recent now? The last Forza Motorsport that came out isn't recent?
 
We need to start pressing gaming journalists to be more open en taken into account these predatory gambling systems. It's absolutely shameful that they don't represent our best interests and we need their coverage if we want the government to take notice and start passing regulations on these thinly veiled casinos.

SaaS? More like SaaC
 
We need to start pressing gaming journalists to be more open en taken into account these predatory gambling systems. It's absolutely shameful that they don't represent our best interests and we need their coverage if we want the government to take notice and start passing regulations on these thinly veiled casinos.

SaaS? More like SaaC

How can they be open when the systems aren’t there when they are reviewed?

I know, I can't get my head around it.

There is either too reasons, one because they want too, or two, because the games are designed with enough physcological hooks to make certain people think they want too.

In FIFA it’s the hook of having the best and then being able boast about having Messi/Ronaldo
 
How can they be open when the systems aren’t there when they are reviewed?



In FIFA it’s the hook of having the best and then being able boast about having Messi/Ronaldo

In dozens of games they've been there before reviews, so no. Overwatch and Destiny most recently for AAA games.
 
It's based on how loot boxes are luck based items, and in the industry we are in there is absolutely no transparency with drop rates or chances. Quite unique for a form of gambling, as if regulated games developers would have to display odds. Blizzard almost had a seizure at China forcing them to display drop rates they went as far to find a way to exploit the Chinese system of law and get around having to keep the drop rates visible.

Add to that the changes to VIP where bonus credit is now consumable rather than a sort of perk for you spending MORE money upfront on the Ultimate Edition of the game. Or buying VIP as a standalone addon (if this were possible in previous games). Apparently turning off assists used to give extra credit as well, and now that is nerfed.

The major issue for reviews is as above too, the purchasable credits in-game store is being held back until reviews are all finished and on metacritic so most of the journalists just ignore them/don't comment on them coming at a TBA date. A really scummy tactic more developers and publishers are doing as journalists care about hour 0/day 1 clicks and get reviews out asap. Even if a review score is changed later on metacritic seem to have a policy where they will not update review scores to reflect a change on a website. Devs/pubs are exploiting that.

This industry being scummy and fucky all round, whilst some gamers bend over backwards to defend the franchises they love turning into something you'd expect to see from a F2P mobile game. Not a $60 game, let alone a $100 game if you're buying the Ultimate Edition. A game with a season pass on top to boot, and any other DLC sold separately from the season pass.

Well said. This industry is rotten to it's core with gluttony. We need to push back and hopefully create enough furore that the legislative powers take notice.
 
Well said. This industry is rotten to it's core with gluttony. We need to push back and hopefully create enough furore that the legislative powers take notice.

Unless you’re going to ban the sale of collector card or sticker packs, it’s unlikely.
 
How can they be open when the systems aren’t there when they are reviewed?



In FIFA it’s the hook of having the best and then being able boast about having Messi/Ronaldo


Why review a game if you don't know the full scope of it's systems or how they impact the gameplay/economy?
 
This doesn't sound particularly different to most implementations - am I missing something? They're all pretty trashy. There's good ways to implement them and bad but publishers will keep trying to push things.

Unfortunately people spend a LOT on these. I know folk who spend £100+ on games like FIFA each year, Call of duty etc. Why would publishers stop when people do that... It sucks :(
 
It does make me wonder just how far devs need to go before these things are universally derided.

Not only have they taken away the option for me to earn more in game credits by giving myself more of a challenge behind (potentially) paid loot crates and the games economy has been tuned to make loot crate more appealing , there is also the legitimacy of completely unregulated gambling.

No doubt these things make money, they wouldn't do it otherwise, but it doesn't make it any less scummy.

It's funny, I have a poster who follows me around saying things like this

Edit: No surprise Audioboxer is here defending his beloved Forza franchise.

simply because for this one iteration of GT I've been going in hard on Kaz/PD and the development cycle length for Sport given that its being released with so much cut content from previous entries.

Then you'll probably have some Forza fans in this topic thinking I'm just a GT fan after reading me posting page after page about how shitty I think all these F2P elements are in Forza 7.

Fans in gaming are just mental at times, criticism need not apply to anything as it's an offence to do so.

In reality, I just absolutely hate how this industry is heading with full priced games behaving like F2P mobile games. My line of study is psychology, so I know damn well what these games are doing. This topic/article is worth reading.

These devs and pubs aren't your best friends. They're trying to extract every single dollar out of your paycheck or your parents credit card possible. So much so this industry is cannonballing into such exploitative and shitty consumer levels that every single god damn game needs gambling loot boxes, special editions, MTs, pre-order season passes, paid for online, additional DLC outside the season pass and more. Fucking paid for mods have even arrived. That's all even in YEARLY iteration sports games (NBA 2K18 eat shit), let alone franchises that might hit every 2~3 years. It's suits in boardrooms that are no better than bankers. You're just their piggy bank. They employ psychologists if not strategists to find ways to be sly about exerting pressure on vulnerable or susceptible people to get them buying keys, space bux or speed up MTs. This is in products you PAY for, you can't even roll out the "oh, but it's F2P" argument mobile games get free reign with. Then as is the case here these fucking devs and pubs won't even put their MTs/spacebux stores in games for the wave of reviews to con the reviewers into not saying anything... It's so damn scummy and calculated, the whole lot of it. No wonder Jim Sterling can almost make a living just covering the shit this industry pulls.

Some developers do not go to the lengths others do, and actually do respect those who put food on their table and spend hundreds if not thousands on their studios over the course of years. CDProject Red is one dev that always gets fan respect, and there are others. At least leehom will be glad to hear me praise, here is one good thing about GT Sport ;) It won't include microtransactions. Which obviously/surely means no lootboxes either. Turn 10, how do PD do it? PD can't get one game out for 4~6 years, and you've even got TWO Forza games releasing alternatively, and you still need all this F2P shite in your games?
 
So... From what I understand instead of turning off assists to squeeze extra rewards per race, it's now become a lootbox mod?

I'm not particularly surprised MS first party games have been going in this direction for a while, but "journalists" really need to start giving scores reflecting the impact of Lootboxes, the NBA 2K18 debacle shows that publishers care enough about their precious Metacritic, so they need to be hit where it hurts instead of being a footnote on a 9/10 score.
 
Christ, where did loot boxes even come from? I feel like they snuck up on me. It feels like yesterday I was complaining about microtransactions, but at least when you bought those you actually got what you wanted to fucking get. This "getting shit at random" garbage is disgusting.
 
Did Turn 10 even advertise that VIP credits gain was changing to a consumable with the Ultimate Edition? If not that is pretty misleading given how it worked in the past. I wonder if there would be a case for requesting refunds due to "false" advertising?
No it wasn't advertised. And for some reason the self service refund isn't working with the game. I'm under two hours of playtime and it's the day after release day so it should work. According to the announcement in April at least, I never actually tried a self service refund before.
 
No it wasn't advertised. And for some reason the self service refund isn't working with the game. I'm under two hours of playtime and it's the day after release day so it should work. According to the announcement in April at least, I never actually tried a self service refund before.

Isn’t self-service still in preview? Just go through the chat in this case - hopefully they’ll get the point.
 
No it wasn't advertised. And for some reason the self service refund isn't working with the game. I'm under two hours of playtime and it's the day after release day so it should work. According to the announcement in April at least, I never actually tried a self service refund before.

Amazon CS seem to be behaving that super paranoid way that they refund you and let you keep the game just to appear as great customer service. Of course, ymmv with Amazon with things like this. Some are lucky, others have to return the product

yOsTb0M.png


If you bought directly from MS you should still be within your rights for a refund, and if any hassle you can point MS to reddit where there is proof of Amazon refunding.
 
I have no argument cause I have no problem with it. I'm not gonna waste my time on something that doesn't bother me. Most people in this thread won't even buy Forza and never had any intentions to do so.

They just found out that some guy took a dump in the middle of the street and all came to tell him how disgusted they are and how much it bothers them that the dump is in the middle of the street they never took before.

You seem very bothered by people posting about it. Take your drive by accusation somewhere else. I’ve played every Forza game relased in the last few years, I don’t have this one because I just sold my Xbox One.

If you don’t care so much why are even posting?
 
What do you mean?

Was just trying to setup my post to show to you that no matter what happens some fans of anything won't help contribute to

It does make me wonder just how far devs need to go before these things are universally derided.

I criticise something to do with GT it means I'm just a "Forza fan" and have leehom following me around GAF to say so. I criticise something to do with Forza it probably just means I'm a "GT fan". So many gamers behave like that when it comes to any criticism of the franchise they like. There's no nuance or middle-ground to call out devs/pubs.

My GT Sport criticism is at least subjective, I'm happy admitting that. Criticism of F2P elements in $60~100 games should not be subjective, almost everyone should be helping make them universally derided. It started off with simple horse armour, and now look where we are in full price games.
 
I criticise something to do with GT it means I'm just a "Forza fan" and have leehom following me around GAF to say so. I criticise something to do with Forza it probably just means I'm a "GT fan". So many gamers behave like that when it comes to any criticism of the franchise they like. There's no nuance or middle-ground to call out devs/pubs.

Nah, you’re just doing it to hold up the pretense of the former ;-)
 
By the way is it true you can't use mods for endurance events in Forza 7? If so it's literally like they're giving you a slap on the wrist for finding a way to get too much money from a single race.
 
Im tier 10 and got 350k, Rewards are not the reason why that guy had 9mil. Money is not hard to come by in this game. I have over 40 cars and a few hundred grand and im not even half way through the 2nd set of championships. Ive also only used 3 mods total. For most people, this whole thing will be a non issue.

So, you can still earn loads of credits. Plus, the boxes ain't even available to buy. Yet the same ol faces are here in force.
Reading all this forza talk, I'm going to download it when my internet sorts itself out later.

Love forza
 
Found this on reddit

v1mIeXt.png


I can see a few refunding the Ultimate edition and rebuying the normal edition. Seeing as the VIP credit perk was probably a decider for some.

The credit perk and early access are the only reasons to get the ultimate edition. Especially considering the VIP cars are just a bunch of fast and furious cars this time round.

Unless you really like having a crown next to your name...
 
By the way is it true you can't use mods for endurance events in Forza 7? If so it's literally like they're giving you a slap on the wrist for finding a way to get too much money from a single race.
You can't use them in showcases, so if endurance events are showcases....

Couple if things I just want to add.

1) level up car rewards aren't always free, they are discounted.

2) if think the reward you are offered is based on your collection level, so maybe an idea to beef that up before levelling for better rewards?
 
You can't use them in showcases, so if endurance events are showcases....

Endurance races are showcases.

But in fairness there are race length options on all of the regular races - so you can increase the length of any standard career race and use the mod then.

But I'm also reading that they also removed the manufacturer affinity bonuses/discounts...
 
But in fairness there are race length options on all of the regular races - so you can increase the length of any standard career race and use the mod then.

I know about the race length feature. Question is can you have a 60-120 minute race if you set it to extra long or is it still a reasonable amount of laps to complete.

Anyway I will find out on Tuesday, the urge to play Forza is too strong, I'll just try to stay away from the loot box bullshit and enjoy the game. :)

1) level up car rewards aren't always free, they are discounted.

2) if think the reward you are offered is based on your collection level, so maybe an idea to beef that up before levelling for better rewards?

One thing I noticed about this thing after watching some career video is that the discount is a not percentage one. The guy that was playing got a 40k discount on levels 1 & 2 (on level 2 the discount was bigger than the car was worth so he got it for free). It probably increases when you raise your car collection level, but getting top cars might turn out to be expensive even with a discount.
 
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