Spider-Man: Homecoming |OT| MCU's Sweet 16 - SPOILERS
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Bobo Dakes
Member
* sigh * no, it isn't the driving force in THIS movie. That's a cheat. You're using your previous knowledge of the character to fill in a missing gap for the movie. The loss is not felt at all, could've came up when they were having dinner in that restaurant, but no, Peter needing another bookbag was more important. Riveting.
I literally have to pull from Civil War to feel like THIS character is simply trying to do the right thing for non-selfish reasons because it doesn't come across in his own movie.
Also, I clarified that they really didn't need to go into depth about Ben, asking for mention by name, wouldn't be treating the audience like idiots. If this was my first Spider-Man movie that none of what you described would come across at all. Like I said, don't need a flashback, don't need a speech, but if you're gonna bring it up, WHICH THEY DID, don't dance around it and maybe actually use it to reinforce Peter's motivation. Ben's only mentioned because Peter's trying to convince Ned not to tell Aunt May he's Spider-Man. Something she'd freak out about whether or not Ben died. And then she found anyway so what the fuck different did that make?
And I'm not even saying it HAD to be Ben, it's just if you're gonna sidestep that plot, can you replace it with something equally compelling? Which they didn't. Ben was just my suggestion because it was already on the floor for them to use. Do not twist what I'm saying into me being salty we didn't get an Uncle Ben subplot because that is NOT AT ALL what I'm saying.
"I want to be an Avenger."
* proceeds to fuck up for 2 hours until he's finally right *
"Nah, I'll chill.
That's his arc. Which is weird because it's not even like they did something great together, his experience with the Avengers was beating up other Avengers and now you want to join what is clearly a broken team. Jesus Christ!
I think in general, less MCU in this would've gone a long way.
That's how serial fiction works. They tell stories across multiple installments. They've been doing this since 2008 and you're still not on board with it, so that means you're just watching to complain, which is odd because your time could be spent doing shit you actually enjoy.
What makes this funnier is the people who complain about MCU movies being too MCU probably have no trouble watching 60 hours of mediocre TV shows that do the same shit.
What makes this funnier is the people who complain about MCU movies being too MCU probably have no trouble watching 60 hours of mediocre TV shows that do the same shit.
Scarecrow
Member
You don't need to have flashbacks to Ben's death every Spider-Man movie, but SM is usually portrayed in a fashion that you wouldn't need to be reminded. The character naturally exudes that power/responsibility lesson. It's made Peter this cultural/generational icon that has lasted for decades. He's the most popular super hero on the planet for a reason.
This version didn't do that well. We got a lot off lip service to rock/hard place Peter. But, a lot of that came off as either lost puppy syndrome (Stark internship! Stark internship!) or flaccid peer pressure avoidance (do I crash this party as Spider-Man? or don't I? Oh good, an actual crime occurred! Now I can be a super hero and avoid this conundrum!)
Nothing in this one gave me a sense of why he does what he does, besides wanting to impress Iron Man. It felt to me like he turned down the job offer for no real reason. He just refuses because that's how these things are supposed to work. And it served no point anyway as we know he's going to be working with the big guys in Infinity War.
This version didn't do that well. We got a lot off lip service to rock/hard place Peter. But, a lot of that came off as either lost puppy syndrome (Stark internship! Stark internship!) or flaccid peer pressure avoidance (do I crash this party as Spider-Man? or don't I? Oh good, an actual crime occurred! Now I can be a super hero and avoid this conundrum!)
Nothing in this one gave me a sense of why he does what he does, besides wanting to impress Iron Man. It felt to me like he turned down the job offer for no real reason. He just refuses because that's how these things are supposed to work. And it served no point anyway as we know he's going to be working with the big guys in Infinity War.
Bobo Dakes
Member
Yeah, I paid IMAX prices because I watched the movie as an excuse complain.
Trying to do this without resorting to insults, but you are trying me. Even if that were true, even if I wanted to hate this, does that make anything that I said any less true? Also, what the hell does my complaint even have to do with what you're talking about?
I get it, it's a universe, I was fine with this like the Captain America tapes, or things like opening or even bank robbery which was a setup for that REALLY forced joke, but what I thought was a bit much was Spider-Man being handed an AI suit. That's my "too MCU" complaint.
Also newsflash, I like movies, I like most MCU movies. Some of them were my favorite movies of the year they came out. In 2014 MCU could do no wrong in my mind. Sorry, I didn't love their last three movies, and don't feel like you have to dismiss me as some whiner because I can break down things like story structure.
I will continue to go to the movies weekly, I will continue to see as much as I can. I will express those opinions on line. And I will try to do that respectfully because I'm hopeful someone will see this and take some of these complaints into account when they're making the next Spider-Man which I will likely see. I don't want Marvel to see this movie's critical success as them thinking everything they did here worked because it really didn't.
I didn't care for First Avenger, I had complaints about that, but Winter Soldier was my shit. I fucking love that movie. It also has flaws that someone else that didn't like the movie that could break down, if I wanted to learn something, I'd ask them about it instead of going "well, you just went in wanting to hate it nyeh".
I also watch these things so I can learn when I turn and do my own shit. FYI filmmaking is really hard, but a lot can be forgiven if you get that core story right and make me care about the characters which is why I brought up Power Rangers. As messy as that third act was, I still gave a shit and wanted to see them pull through.
Because maybe isn't the right time to show it. Like, for example, if the next main villain would be Mysterio, he could mess with Peter's mind to think Uncle Ben isn't death or remind him his guilt. Or something.
Honestly who knows what will happen in the next movie, but with Aunt May discovering Peter I feel Ben will be mentioned.
it was the most faithful representation of the character in terms of the movies
also subtext is the answer to your question. there's a bit with Aunt May and Peter where that's made clear.
my calibration got thrown the fuck off with this thread and the things people were seriously posting
How wasn't it faithful?
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Reads like Trump's review of the movie.
WadiumArcadium
Member
I'm pretty sure that's intentional.
Yep sarcasm
Too MCU? Huh? Ever heard of Iron Spider? Amazing Spider-Man #529, man. 2006.
Bobo Dakes
Member
I was clearly quoting someone else. Stop with the cherrypicking.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
That is exactly the intention of the writers and director. And it works for the benefit of the film.
Huh?
The point is that "AI Spiderman suit" isn't an MCU invention, so it's not "too MCU."
What does that have to do with him cherrypicking you or not?
That's the point of having a serialized story. Hell, it's a totally acceptable thing to do when the subject of your film is a figure of pop-culture ubiquity like Spider-Man. Everyone knows about Uncle Ben, full-stop. We don't need him explicitly in this movie.
Sectorseven
Member
I don't know if the Vulture really worked for me in this incarnation. He was too much like an Iron Man villain. I think it would have been more "neighborhood" with someone like the Lizard ( I realize they just used him). The movie was too high tech feeling, you could have almost replaced the spider powers with a normal guy in an Iron Man lite suit. Although I still enjoyed it for what it was.
I loved the Vulture in this, Toomes living off the scraps of the attack on NYC.
I saw it. I like it for what it is: A MCU Spiderman movie. I can't say Andrew or Tobey would fit in with the Avengers as well as Tom would. However, Spider-Man 2 is still the greatest Spider-Man movie of all time. The story, the villain, the characters, the soundtrack.... Spidey 2 is king. It's never gonna be dethroned as far as Spidey movies go.
CaviarMeths
Member
Imagine seriously arguing that we need to see Uncle Ben die in order for Spider-Man's arc to make sense in 2017.
If there is no Martha and Thomas Wayne recap in Justice League, how will we know what Bauman's motivation is?
Bobo Dakes
Member
Oh so we're doing this huh. We're gonna pretend that I didn't say at least three times that we didn't need to literally see Ben's death. We're gonna pretend that I didn't elaborate on my point that "I want to be an Avenger" was a weak driving force for Peter. We're pretending I didn't simply suggest that mentioning his uncle by name and what happened in a sentence or two would've gone a long way to making him seem somewhat selfless. Apparently I also didn't say that Ben was just a suggestion and that it didn't HAVE to be him, just anything a little more compelling than what we got.
Nope, apparently I just can't understand the movie and NEED them to spend 30 minutes showing an old man die again. That's EXACTLY what I fucking said. Right?
CaviarMeths
Member
Honestly mate there's nothing in Spider-Man: Homecoming that should provoke such an angry reaction to the movie. It's remarkably inoffensive as a film. I get that you're an aspiring filmmaker and you have all sorts of useful tips you'd like to pass on to the director of Cop Car, but I don't agree that Spider-Man: A Bobo Dakes Film would be any better than Homecoming, so I guess this is where I get off the bus.
No Rourke, it'll be Clive Owen.
Bobo Dakes
Member
I'm not mad at the movie. I think it's perfectly watchable, I'm just taken aback by some of praise and mentioned the issues I had with it. I also took the time to mention the things I liked, but who cares about that.
The thing that did make me mad was how with every comment, one of you just had to frame it in a particular way because you disagreed with me.
Because I thought this movie had problems I apparently:
- only went to see it to hate on it
- hate all MCU movies
- hate MCU humor
None of that's true, but sure, keep projecting.
No, I simply just thought this movie had issues and waited until after the initial hype passed to share my thoughts so I wouldn't be spoiling everyone's fun with it. But your poor reading comprehension made this harder than it needed to be.
Yeah, the last three MCU entries were disappoints to me, I can't help that. It sucks to feel that way as a person that generally enjoys these. But I'll keep giving these a shot. I'm super hyped for Thor, I know humor is gonna play big in that, but I hope it's not at the expense of story. What We Do in the Shadows is one of my favorite comedies ever and I have a ton of faith in Taika. I also really want to enjoy Black Panther. If I do, I'll share why, if I don't, I'll share why. I'm not a film snob, or a know it all, nor did I claim to be. There are plenty of poorly received movies that I like, there plenty of well received that I don't, and just as many that I fall in line with as everyone else's opinion. I'm just being honest with myself. Never said I could make a better film.
So kindly suck my dick from the back.
Holy shit dude, calm down.
Bobo Dakes
Member
Okay, ignore my larger to point and hone in on the vulgar thing I said because I'm petty. And project anger that's not there onto it.
Can't wait to see the 20th post that says I hate this film because I didn't see uncle Ben die again.
You see how that's annoying? That's literally what this entire page is.
In my mind, Uncle Ben is Joe Pesci. I think he just got out of retirement too.
watched it on the weekend for the first time with my wife, son and a friend. Wife and friend thought it was a really childish movie, like a high school comedy (think American Pie). My son and I had a really fun time, though. He even considers it to be the best Spider-Man, as "it captures like I feel in school right now".
The friend is a real comic book nerd and was fuming over the changes (MJ, Flash, Betty Brant).
I thought it was a good SM-movie for the next millenium. It gave us something new, not to strong attached to the comics. I mean .. even Thor diverged strongly from the source material (no secret identity, god-powers are just science that we can't explain ..).
All in all: I felt entertained, so the shortcomings could be overlooked. And the movie makes kids happy.
The friend is a real comic book nerd and was fuming over the changes (MJ, Flash, Betty Brant).
I thought it was a good SM-movie for the next millenium. It gave us something new, not to strong attached to the comics. I mean .. even Thor diverged strongly from the source material (no secret identity, god-powers are just science that we can't explain ..).
All in all: I felt entertained, so the shortcomings could be overlooked. And the movie makes kids happy.
SpideySenses
Member
You don't need to go beat for beat like SM1/ASM1 though, people are joking about a Batman origin again in JL but BvS for all of it's flaws is a perfect example of how to do a flashback origin scene right. It lasts a couple minutes, it's well shot, it wasn't entirely necessary (If you need to establish Martha, visiting the grave does the same) but it certainly doesn't take away from the movie. Hell, Spider-man 2 recaps the entire first movie in it's opening credits, is that suddenly a negative too?
The problem is that your arguments don't make sense. Yes, Uncle Ben isn't mentioned by name but his presence (or lack of his presence) is felt and his fate & impact of his fate is super-clearly implied with the words said and even what is left unsaid. I'd even argue that neither being able to talk about him yet just makes it clear how raw those feelings of loss & pain are to both Aunt May & Peter, still, and as such makes it even more powerful as a showcase of what they have gone through and are going through.
And Peter's "I want to be an Avenger" could be a lame motivation if it wasn't for the fact that he wants it so badly because that's what Peter thinks will lead him to be able to help more people. He views Avengers as bastions of superheroness and aspires to be able to help the world like Avengers have. If it was just for the glory of being an Avenger, sure, you could be all "that's dumb", but that's not it. While he IS excited about the prospect of doing so, fighting alongside Avengers will also make him better able to defend/save the innocent people he has decided to defend/save. The movie is about him realizing that he doesn't need to be a part of the Avengers to do a lot of good in the world and it's perhaps better that, at least for now, he focuses on more street-level threats & stuff the Avengers ignore/don't notice than jumping into the big leagues right away.
And that's a pretty decent Spider-Man story to tell, especially for his first outing in the MCU that has already established the Avengers & Spidey is coming in late, and after we've already had more (melo)dramatic Spidey stories in the OG Raimi Trilogy & ASM duo. Nothing wrong or bad about having the first story be a bit lighter and not jumping to death of MJ & my-best-friend-becomes-my-worst-enemy kind of storylines within the first film.
Not sure if it was you who criticized Spidey having the Stark suit, but really, MCU Spider-Man doing something different from the other two is refreshing and when you take it as a way to bring Spidey's trademark active inside-his-head monologues onto the big screen, it's pretty genius & fun.
Also don't agree with the "everyone is just a comic relief side character" critique. People make jokes & fool aroud when they are around friends and Homecoming can do serious when it needs to (that awesome scene with Vulture in the car, some of the Tony & Peter scenes, Aunt May confronting Peter after he didn't answer his phone & came home late, the comic re-creation scene with Spidey under the rubble etc.). What is portrayed at most moments in the movie is fairly normal behaviour of people and the comic moments rarely take away from those, just makes characters more likable & easier to root for & an altogether more enjoyable film. No one is all Snyder-Superman-scowls all the time. And Tom Holland & friends being all
at every turn wouldn't have made the movie better.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
No one should take you seriously anyways if you're gonna address other posters that way.
Inferno313
Banned
hey guys i liked this movie what's going on in he-
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
BUT WHAT IS HIS MOTIVATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cherubimon142
Member
Honestly, when I really think about the movie, there were only three things about the movie I actually truly enjoyed. One, Michael Keaton as the Vulture (a sympathetic villain who's evolution seemed incredibly plausible (certainly in comparison to every villain that's come before in MCU and DCU)),his interaction with Peter in the car on the way to Prom, and the refreshing level of dialogue (minus Flash) that made me feel like I was actually watching high school students, and not characters in a high school. THESE THREE PARTS WERE PURE GOLD. Everything else was either gimmicky or felt lacking in some way.
Shadowhelper
Banned
I don't think wanting to be a superhero is weak motivation at all. Just make him excited to be a superhero. A kid excited to be Spiderman is the most obvious motivation and all you need. Uncle Ben doesn't need to be referenced. Everyone gets it, and its tired. He's Spiderman, we fucking get it. We don't need to be told why he's Spiderman. He's one of the most popular characters of all time.
I actually do find all the technology stuff kinda stupid though. New takes are fine, and I guess having AI in his suit gives him something to talk to and provide humor, but its still a bit bizarre. He's fucking spiderman. He's one of the most powerful characters in Marvel. I don't understand why he needs all this tech bullshit. It also contradicts his downhome, diy technology and genius when Tony Stark is just handing him all this tech. I think it all works, but its just a little weird to do this. Its like giving Superman gadgets to help him fight his villains. Not that extreme. I think it does contradict an essential part of his character though.
Also, think it's a bit cowardly to also just make the Vulture a dude with tech. It definitely works, but it feels too safe and perhaps only like that because it has to service the MCU and the TV universe.
Ultimately it is a very good movie. You can feel the full weight of Marvel on this movie. Its well paced, very slick, a dead on portrayal of Peter Parker, well paced humor, and cool action pieces that are also thrilling. This Peter Parker is right inbetween the last two, not too dopey and not too confident. Obviously a great supporting cast, especially the kids, they get huge points for that.
I actually do find all the technology stuff kinda stupid though. New takes are fine, and I guess having AI in his suit gives him something to talk to and provide humor, but its still a bit bizarre. He's fucking spiderman. He's one of the most powerful characters in Marvel. I don't understand why he needs all this tech bullshit. It also contradicts his downhome, diy technology and genius when Tony Stark is just handing him all this tech. I think it all works, but its just a little weird to do this. Its like giving Superman gadgets to help him fight his villains. Not that extreme. I think it does contradict an essential part of his character though.
Also, think it's a bit cowardly to also just make the Vulture a dude with tech. It definitely works, but it feels too safe and perhaps only like that because it has to service the MCU and the TV universe.
Ultimately it is a very good movie. You can feel the full weight of Marvel on this movie. Its well paced, very slick, a dead on portrayal of Peter Parker, well paced humor, and cool action pieces that are also thrilling. This Peter Parker is right inbetween the last two, not too dopey and not too confident. Obviously a great supporting cast, especially the kids, they get huge points for that.