I was always pretty hostile to people who committed suicide. Then I read this story.

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Cloudy

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I was always mad at people who killed themselves for the pain they caused everyone else. I just couldn't understand it in 99.9% of cases. Then I heard about Bill Zeller. This really makes me re-think my stance. You can tell this dude tried his best and just couldn't cope. His words makes me understand where he's coming from. RIP Bill...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/07/bill-zeller-dead-princeto_n_805689.html

Bill Zeller, a Princeton Ph.D candidate and renowned internet programmer, died Wednesday from injuries sustained in a suicide attempt. He was 27.

Zeller stunned the programming community with a 4,000-word suicide note detailing a childhood of physical and sexual abuse, which he had never before disclosed to anyone.

"I've never been able to stop thinking about what happened to me and this hampered my social interactions," Zeller wrote. "... I wondered what it would be like to take to other people without what happened constantly on my mind, and I wondered if other people had similar experiences that they were better able to mask."
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I think his suicide note (in the link) is a very powerful read. I also hope anyone who reads this that's suffering like he did tries to get help. Man, I feel terrible after reading this. I really hope they track down and arrest the guy who abused him somehow...
 
I have no probem with suicide. It's completely selfish and somewhat cowardly but it's their life and they can do with it as they please.

What happened with that suicide thread from yesterday?
 
Kinyou said:
I can't understand people who can't understand people who commit suicide
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Some people have an extremely skewed/one-dimensional perception of mental issues (i.e. depressed people should just stop whining and cheer up, etc).
 
Igo said:
I have no probem with suicide. It's completely selfish and somewhat cowardly but it's their life and they can do with it as they please.
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It's selfish if you're lucid and fully aware of yourself and your surroundings. People who kill themselves often aren't.

They call depression a "chemical imbalance" because that's what it is. It isn't something you make up for yourself or something you can control. Your brain is physically fucked up. You think the wrong things. You perceive everything differently than every normal person. Are people with brain damage and mental retardation selfish for not being able to control their deficiencies?

Think about it this way. Have you ever felt scared in bed at night, like there's a shadow that's moving that's scaring you, or you think something totally silly like your nightmare you just woke up from is real? Now imagine what an outside observer thinks. "lol look at this idiot, he's fucking afraid of dark shadows on his wall. Dude, it's just a reflection of a tree!" But you're fucking terrified. You're hearing sounds and you think it might be an intruder or even something as ridiculous as thinking there's a ghost, even if just for a few seconds. A person with depression lives like this all the fucking time. It's common to read about people who think there are people or things behind corners waiting to kill them. That's why they don't get out of bed all day. When they say life is a living nightmare all day every day, they're not being hyperbolic or dramatic. Their brain is fucking up their perception of the real world, and they see and feel things that we don't. They can't help it. They need help. They are not selfish.
 
Cloudy said:
I was always mad at people who killed themselves for the pain they caused everyone else. I just couldn't understand it it 99.9% of cases. Then I heard about Bill Zeller. This really makes me re-think my stance. You can tell this dude tried his best and just couldn't cope. His words makes me understand where he's coming from. RIP Bill...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/07/bill-zeller-dead-princeto_n_805689.html



I think his suicide note (in the link) is a very powerful read. I also hope anyone who reads this that's suffering like he did tries to get help. Man, I feel terrible after reading this. I really hope they track down and arrest the guy who abused him somehow...
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Yup. That's pretty much the problem with anyone who is hostile toward depressive/suicidal people.

TheEastonator said:
Some people have an extremely skewed/one-dimensional perception of mental issues (i.e. depressed people should just stop whining and cheer up, etc).
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.
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
It's selfish if you're lucid and fully aware of yourself and your surroundings. People who kill themselves often aren't.

They call depression a "chemical imbalance" because that's what it is. It isn't something you make up for yourself or something you can control. Your brain is physically fucked up. You think the wrong things. You perceive everything differently than every normal person. Are people with brain damage and mental retardation selfish for not being able to control their deficiencies?
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How much help would psychology be? what I mean is, if he sat down every day for 4 hours with a psychiatrist, could his condition improve? or does it just stay as it is like some people who have brain damage. If you feel its fit to compare a person who has depression to one who may have Downe syndrome for example to one who is depressed then I guess the proper drugs would be the only solution, or there may be no solution. I'd like to read what you think.
 
People without real depression (and this goes for other issues, like anxiety) just don't know what it feels like to have clinical mental issues. They try to equate clinical depression with "depression" as they feel it and think, "eh, just tough it out!" And I think that's where the hostility and misunderstandings come from.

It's similar to someone saying, "I have a sore throat" where everyone thinks they can empathize, but in reality the person has throat cancer.
 
lightless_shado said:
How much help would psychology be? what I mean is, if he sat down every day for 4 hours with a psychiatrist, could his condition improve? or does it just stay as it is like some people who have brain damage. If you feel its fit to compare a person who has depression to one who may have Downe syndrome for example to one who is depressed then I guess the proper drugs would be the only solution, or there may be no solution. I'd like to read what you think.
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I don't really know, and I don't think anyone does, and that's why this is still such a big problem all over the world.

I know someone who developed schizophrenia in his early 20s. Apparently it's most common in men in their late teens and early 20s. A totally normal, beautiful person who ended up destroyed by his own twisted mind. And when you think back to his behavior for years, it all started to make sense. You could see it developing, though we didn't know what was happening. It's pretty sad how helpless these people are to themselves while heartless and ignorant people like the OP are mad at them. I'm glad something finally got through to the OP, though.
 
GAF was the place where I learned that people get really offended by people who kill themselves. I have never found the idea that is something that is cowardly or selfish. Some people in life are given the short end of the stick and to call people selfish or cowards for wanting and needing to end their life when you have no idea what they are going through day in and day out is something that I can not understand. People shouldn't have to keep on trucking through life if every day is a living hell for them. Then again I guess I have fairly different views on suicide and though I have never thought about doing it, I would do it if I was ever given some horrible debilitating disease or injury.
 
What a sad story. :(

He sounds like such a nice and sincere person too. He had nothing but good intentions but he couldn't find a way to overcome his "darkness".

RIP
 
I read that whole letter yesterday, but what stood out to me was that he never spoke to anyone about it. That's probably what did him in, you need to let something that dark out, or it consumes you.
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
It's selfish if you're lucid and fully aware of yourself and your surroundings. People who kill themselves often aren't.

They call depression a "chemical imbalance" because that's what it is. It isn't something you make up for yourself or something you can control. Your brain is physically fucked up. You think the wrong things. You perceive everything differently than every normal person. Are people with brain damage and mental retardation selfish for not being able to control their deficiencies?

Think about it this way. Have you ever felt scared in bed at night, like there's a shadow that's moving that's scaring you, or you think something totally silly like your nightmare you just woke up from is real? Now imagine what an outside observer thinks. "lol look at this idiot, he's fucking afraid of dark shadows on his wall. Dude, it's just a reflection of a tree!" But you're fucking terrified. You're hearing sounds and you think it might be an intruder or even something as ridiculous as thinking there's a ghost, even if just for a few seconds. A person with depression lives like this all the fucking time. It's common to read about people who think there are people or things behind corners waiting to kill them. That's why they don't get out of bed all day. When they say life is a living nightmare all day every day, they're not being hyperbolic or dramatic. Their brain is fucking up their perception of the real world, and they see and feel things that we don't. They can't help it. They need help. They are not selfish.
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Thx, I should just copy and save this so I can post it whenever I see someone insulting people who committed suicide
 
On the subject of calling suicide selfish. I was wondering...

Isn't it in fact selfish to prevent/ban someone from taking his/her own life, just because you don't like it? You're in essence restricting someones self-determination.


(Off course now I'm just giving the other extreme of the spectrum, and the truth and reasonableness lies somewhere in between. But it was just a thought I had.)
 
lightless_shado said:
How much help would psychology be? what I mean is, if he sat down every day for 4 hours with a psychiatrist, could his condition improve? or does it just stay as it is like some people who have brain damage. If you feel its fit to compare a person who has depression to one who may have Downe syndrome for example to one who is depressed then I guess the proper drugs would be the only solution, or there may be no solution. I'd like to read what you think.
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It's complicated. My anecdotal evidence is that I went to shrinks for years and they did nothing, suicidal tendencies were there, all the time. Then I meet my current shrink and everything changed, but this was the kind of shrink that really doesn't tell you anything, besides the fact that the only one taking you out of that hole is you and you alone, and trying to explain certain behaviors.

And at the end is that way, it's sad this guy couldn't do it, sometimes is too much, but I think that this is more the reason to do something to get out of the hole, it's your life, is your only chance, you have to fight for it.
 
Guevara said:
I don't understand how people can be so successful with skeletons like that in the closet.
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The world's full of people with deep and profound emotional wounds who get up every day and do their best to come to grips with their history of abuse and attempt to lead normal lives. Politicians, business leaders, clergy, scientists, actors, athletes, and factory workers -- childhood abuse cuts across social strata.

There are millions of cases of child abuse every year in the U.S., taking the form of either neglect, physical abuse, emotional abuse, or sexual abuse. I don't know anyone who doesn't at least know someone who was either physically or sexually abused as a child. The trauma lasts, but many people go on to lead happy and successful lives.
 
Ugh. Apart from the parts about being raped, the parts about his family, and the parts about relationships (though that's just because I've been too much of a loser to actually have a relationship; I imagine I'll have a similar experience if I ever do manage one), that letter is pretty much exactly how I feel.
 
Souldriver said:
On the subject of calling suicide selfish. I was wondering...

Isn't it in fact selfish to prevent/ban someone from taking his/her own life, just because you don't like it? You're in essence restricting someones self-determination.


(Off course now I'm just giving the other extreme of the spectrum, and the truth and reasonableness lies somewhere in between. But it was just a thought I had.)
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I don't think it's as simple as that, cases vary so much you can't just reduce it down to 'being selfish'.

I'm varied on the matter, but I can't empathise so my opinion is uninformed.
 
Mechanical Snowman said:
I don't think it's as simple as that, cases vary so much you can't just reduce it down to 'being selfish'.

I'm varied on the matter, but I can't empathise so my opinion is uninformed.
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Yeah, that why I said that it's just the opposite side of the "selfish" coin I'm presenting.

Either way: when it comes to threads like these, people should listen to Lui_Kang_Baking_A_Pie. He's making it unnecessary for me to post because he voices my opinion perfectly.
 
I read his suicide note a few days ago. I think if I were going what he went through, Id probably come to the same conclusion he did. Call me weak or whatever, but some things you just cant get past and these things ate at him every minute of every day.
 
cnizzle06 said:
I get mad at dead people too. I take daily visits to cemeteries just to scream at their graves.
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"WHY ARE YOU DEAD?! AAAARRRRRGHHHHH!!!"
 
I can't understand people who comment on threads without reading the material linked in the OP.

Edit: I am interested whether people pieced together what really happened to the guy, and whether it has been corroborated in any way.
 
What, so his suicide ISN'T extremely hurtful to the people that loved him?

So it's IMPOSSIBLE that therapy could have made him feel better? (I guess now it is)

Let's not go crazy here, people. Sure he had a horrible childhood, and his existence was painful all the time. That's the gist of it. I still don't think he was right in offing himself though.

Furthermore, let's say his suicide is okay. So at what point does suicide become un-okay? Like, can people with painful illness kill themselves? Is it just the ones who have no cure?

This is a classic where-do-you-draw-the-line, basically.
 
Souldriver said:
On the subject of calling suicide selfish. I was wondering...

Isn't it in fact selfish to prevent/ban someone from taking his/her own life, just because you don't like it? You're in essence restricting someones self-determination.
Click to expand...

I think so. Obviously people want to protect their loved ones but I not sure forcing people to live in misery simply because we would miss them is right. I'm not saying we shouldn't attempt to get them help but there's a point where we just have to accept that some people don't want to be here anymore.
 
wmat said:
What, so his suicide ISN'T extremely hurtful to the people that loved him?

So it's IMPOSSIBLE that therapy could have made him feel better? (I guess now it is)

Let's not go crazy here, people. Sure he had a horrible childhood, and his existence was painful all the time. That's the gist of it. I still don't think he was right in offing himself though.

Furthermore, let's say his suicide is okay. So at what point does suicide become un-okay? Like, can people with painful illness kill themselves? Is it just the ones who have no cure?

This is a classic where-do-you-draw-the-line, basically.
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You don't need to draw a line that fits every situation. You just have to have respect and empathy for all human beings and react accordingly.
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
You don't need to draw a line that fits every situation. You just have to have respect and empathy for all human beings and react accordingly.
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Of course.

Especially after the fact.

Best wishes to his family and friends.
 
wmat said:
What, so his suicide ISN'T extremely hurtful to the people that loved him?

So it's IMPOSSIBLE that therapy could have made him feel better? (I guess now it is)

Let's not go crazy here, people. Sure he had a horrible childhood, and his existence was painful all the time. That's the gist of it. I still don't think he was right in offing himself though.

Furthermore, let's say his suicide is okay. So at what point does suicide become un-okay? Like, can people with painful illness kill themselves? Is it just the ones who have no cure?

This is a classic where-do-you-draw-the-line, basically.
Click to expand...

Well, my point was that I used to have a black and white attitude over this. Not anymore...
 
wmat said:
What, so his suicide ISN'T extremely hurtful to the people that loved him?

So it's IMPOSSIBLE that therapy could have made him feel better? (I guess now it is)

Let's not go crazy here, people. Sure he had a horrible childhood, and his existence was painful all the time. That's the gist of it. I still don't think he was right in offing himself though.

Furthermore, let's say his suicide is okay. So at what point does suicide become un-okay? Like, can people with painful illness kill themselves? Is it just the ones who have no cure?

This is a classic where-do-you-draw-the-line, basically.
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Comes down to personal opinion, but imho YOUR life is YOUR possession. If you want to end it, you are allowed to. Your life is your most cherished and valuable possession. People don't decide hastily on something like this. So when someone ends up committing suicide, you have to assume he or she had big reasons to do so.

It gets messy for me personally when there are other people involved who physically (not emotionally!!) depend on you. Like say, you have a new born baby. Or an elder to take care of.

Leaving people behind who emotionally depend on you is a sad thing to do. But imho it's even worse to command someone to keep on living if that person is in utter agony 24/7, just because you're attached to him or her. If someone I hold dear ends up committing suicide, this opinion would undoubtedly take place for utter anger, sadness, depression. But deep down inside I'd still know that on principle the dead person has made a choice, and I have to deal with that.

But what it all comes down to is: trying to prevent it all! Offer help, support and understanding to people who are seriously considering suicide, or have attempted it. As I mentioned in the beginning of my post: people don't go hastily over such a thing, so always treat a troubled person with respect, and try offering help: psychological and/or medical. The patients aren't just a bunch of whiners. A lot of depressions are caused because of chemical imbalances in the body, as Lui_kang has said. So treat it like a disease. You don't judge a person based on a disease he or she has.


All imho off course.
 
If a woman has the right to decide to terminate her pregnancy or not because it's her body (and no, I don't want this to turn into a debate on the morality of abortion) then the same logic should apply to her own body or to any other adult's body. You should have the right to commit suicide, and personally I say you should have the right to be helped by any physician willing to make it easier for you. The government shouldn't have the right to forbid you from terminating your life because that violates the sovereignty of your body and if you don't have a right to die then your right to life is meaningless.
 
Gaborn said:
If a woman has the right to decide to terminate her pregnancy or not because it's her body (and no, I don't want this to turn into a debate on the morality of abortion) then the same logic should apply to her own body or to any other adult's body. You should have the right to commit suicide, and personally I say you should have the right to be helped by any physician willing to make it easier for you. The government shouldn't have the right to forbid you from terminating your life because that violates the sovereignty of your body and if you don't have a right to die then your right to life is meaningless.
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I don't think there's any laws against un-assisted suicide, dude..
 
Cloudy said:
Well, my point was that I used to have a black and white attitude over this. Not anymore...
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Considering that I myself had suicidal thoughts for a long time, I never had a black and white attitude over this because I know how it feels when it seems like the only solution to lift the pain. But despite his actions and justification, for those who are considering suicide, make it clear to yourselves that there is a way out of that psychological state, and, as others have said before, it starts with talking to people you trust. If you don't have that, seek it in therapists. Don't shy away from, as cheesy as it sounds, saying 'yes' to life, regardless of how attractive the final step may seem. Because that might just make it possible for you to experience wonderful things.

And he certainly had the potential for that, from what I can tell. I didn't know him.
 
Wow this guy seems like a pretty chill dude. He writes pretty well and I like his sense of humor. The "darkness" is really something I can't wrap my mind around. How could such a normal-seeming guy be so dogged by the rape? Anyone have some insight or some article or something that explains what's happening here?
 
Guevara said:
I don't understand how people can be so successful with skeletons like that in the closet.
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If you become successful at something, especially education, you can use that to fully forget about your problems. Your focus is not on any of the bad thoughts but on getting into that university or acing that test or finishing that job.

But all that repressing eventually builds up and creeps into your life as the years flow by. It's just really really shitty.

BananaBomb said:
Wow this guy seems like a pretty chill dude. He writes pretty well and I like his sense of humor. The "darkness" is really something I can't wrap my mind around. How could such a normal-seeming guy be so dogged by the rape? Anyone have some insight or some article or something that explains what's happening here?
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uhh... rape is almost always horrifying for the victim. This is one word I wish the internet didn't dull down, because it's not - and I don't think it'll ever - be a laughing matter for someone who's experienced it.
 
Read the letter and man, that hit me hard. His case was far more extreme than my own (the rape being the biggest and most heart breaking thing), but he said so many of the things I've felt over the years. It's terrible he never found anyone he felt could understand and help with his darkness. Even though overcoming depression ultimately rests on the person suffering from it, you really do need to have someone there to remind you that you're worth something and see you through or else your own sadness will consume you. The worst thing about it is he had so much to offer the world. So much he had already started to give the world.

I'm tearing up here. I just hope that wherever he is, he's found peace.
 
BananaBomb said:
Wow this guy seems like a pretty chill dude. He writes pretty well and I like his sense of humor. The "darkness" is really something I can't wrap my mind around. How could such a normal-seeming guy be so dogged by the rape? Anyone have some insight or some article or something that explains what's happening here?
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He was raped as a child and it left him horribly emotionally, mentally, and physically scarred. What's not to understand about why he would feel constantly morose?
 
perryfarrell said:
Edit: I am interested whether people pieced together what really happened to the guy, and whether it has been corroborated in any way.
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I've got a feeling it was probably someone from his church. Whoever the fuck it was I hope they are found and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

I'd normally say something like "best wishes to his family", but from what he wrote they (His parents) sound like terrible fucking people.
 
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