I was always pretty hostile to people who committed suicide. Then I read this story.
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ZephyrFate
Banned
Yes, optimism should be more commonplace.Stat Flow said:
I was entertaining suicidal thoughts ten years ago. I'm thankful that I didn't go through with it - life got so much more better. This guy didn't have the thought of his parents' despair holding him back like I did. I respect everyone's got the right to end their own lives if they want to, but we shouldn't build a culture where the first avenue of escape for someone in misery is suicide.
Also, and I want want to be a dick, but this occurred to me today as I was buying a frangipani. The programmer's suicide note:
main( ) {
printf("goodbye, world");
}
Also, and I want want to be a dick, but this occurred to me today as I was buying a frangipani. The programmer's suicide note:
main( ) {
printf("goodbye, world");
}
ZephyrFate
Banned
It's much better to believe that it is the same for everyone else than to deny, deny, deny.Vamphuntr said:
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
CrankyJay said:
The fact that people even assume that they can actively judge the life and being of another person, is where the OP's problems of hostility begin.
What could possible give a person a right to determine the life of another?
And before some says: "parenthood", you do not actually determine the life of your child.
ZephyrFate said:
I'm not suicidal but get real, they don't work for everyone. EMDR has failed to stop my nightmares/flashbacks, so has traditional therapy. Meds don't work either unless it's something like Seroquel which puts me to sleep for 15 hours minimum. What do you recommend, meditation? Just deal with it? I do now, some people can't. Don't judge them for it.
ZephyrFate
Banned
Meditation is a damn good solution, actually. Helps a lot of other people around the world.xelios said:
Edit: If you have a chemical imbalance that is untreatable, I'm not judging you. Every other reason, though? I'm pretty sure some society in this world has figured out a viable solution. And it's not always meds.
ZephyrFate said:
I'm all for being optimistic but in specific cases your " there is always a way" might end up painting you as an arrogant or someone insensitive to the problem of others. Like Zeitgester said
Zeitgeister said:
It's not always that easy to put yourself in someone else's shoes.
ZephyrFate
Banned
I actually have no problem with people assuming I'm arrogant or insensitive. That's their call, myself and many others do not agree.Vamphuntr said:
I'm all for being optimistic but in specific cases your " there is always a way" might end up painting you as an arrogant or someone insensitive to the problem of others. Like Zeitgester said
It's not always that easy to put yourself in someone's else shoes.
CornBurrito
Member
ZephyrFate said:
What a claim. Got any evidence to back it up?
ZephyrFate
Banned
I enjoy the fact that you've conveniently ignored the fact that I have stated that I at one point was suicidal. Then I realized the implications it would have on my family, my friends, society at large, etc. and I realized how absolutely incompetent I was.Dai Kaiju said:
Vicetrailia
Banned
Why is it selfish to kill yourself huh? Because other people care?
The SELF is the most important thing. If you can't heal you then why would you care about what others thing. It doesn't make sense.
The SELF is the most important thing. If you can't heal you then why would you care about what others thing. It doesn't make sense.
I mean seriously.
ZephyrFate: "SUICIDE IS BAD!!!"
Everyone else: "Well, yes, I don't think anyone would disagree with that. But sometimes people are dealt a bad hand, so they're stuck with a crappy decision between living in pain for the rest of their life or putting an end to it. There isn't a correct answer in this situation, but it's understandable why someone in such a situation would choose suicide."
ZephyrFate: "Uh... SUICIDE IS BAD!!! LIFE IS WORTH LIVING!!!"
ZephyrFate: "SUICIDE IS BAD!!!"
Everyone else: "Well, yes, I don't think anyone would disagree with that. But sometimes people are dealt a bad hand, so they're stuck with a crappy decision between living in pain for the rest of their life or putting an end to it. There isn't a correct answer in this situation, but it's understandable why someone in such a situation would choose suicide."
ZephyrFate: "Uh... SUICIDE IS BAD!!! LIFE IS WORTH LIVING!!!"
state-of-the-art
Member
One of my closest friends committed suicide in 2008. He definitely had dealt with some hardships in his life, and it seemed like he was making the effort to get better; he genuinely seemed better in fact. Then, he did it. Completely blindsided everybody. It is easy for people who've never dealt with suicide criticize those who take their own life, but they've never seen the struggle these people put up with. Such a shame.
MisterAnderson
Member
ZephyrFate said:
Clearly he should have went on a personal journey to Tibet to train for 6 years with the League of Shadows so that he can properly get vengeance against his church as a vigilante crime fighter. Then he could channel his "darkness" to continue his crusade and make the world a better place, all the while giving him the purpose he was seeking.
In all seriousness though, why not name the motherfucker who did that to him? I know he explains in the suicide note the reasoning behind not bothering, and in many cases lays down some big hints, but I would have taken at least some satisfaction knowing that at the very least you'd fuck up the piece of shit's reputation and possibly get some justice.
ZephyrFate
Banned
Way to ignore everything I've said. GOOD ON YOU!KevinCow said:
*high fives*
Suicide Defense Force is probably the most entertaining on GAF at the moment.
People who think suicide is selfish or are hostile to people who are considering it don't understand what it's actually like to have those thoughts going through their head.
Suicide is not a decision borne out of logic. It's an extremely emotional reaction. Anybody attempting to apply logical standards to suicide victims are simply not thinking about suicide in its proper context.
Unless you've been close to the edge, you're not qualified to talk about what it's like as far as I'm concerned. I've been there, and it ain't pretty.
Suicide is not a decision borne out of logic. It's an extremely emotional reaction. Anybody attempting to apply logical standards to suicide victims are simply not thinking about suicide in its proper context.
Unless you've been close to the edge, you're not qualified to talk about what it's like as far as I'm concerned. I've been there, and it ain't pretty.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
It's really a "that's different to me, and it confuses me so I'm angry" situation, like most social problems these days.state-of-the-art said:
It's no surprise that everyone who knows someone who has killed themselves has informed, reasonable opinions and thoughts about it, while people with no references or understanding at all say the most horrible shit.
ZephyrFate
Banned
If you have no medical reason for your suicidal tendencies, then yeah, you can.KevinCow said:
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
i want to seriously physically harm a pedo before I kick the bucket. i hate them so much.
Big case in amsterdam recently where a pedo got loose in 2 different preschools, dude screwed/taped at least 54 diff kids before they nabbed him. Sexual abuse is the worst.
Big case in amsterdam recently where a pedo got loose in 2 different preschools, dude screwed/taped at least 54 diff kids before they nabbed him. Sexual abuse is the worst.
state-of-the-art
Member
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
It's true. Frame of reference makes a all of the difference.
MisterAnderson
Member
ZephyrFate said:
It's times like these that I'm ashamed of myself for not having a folder of .gifs on hand.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Right, and all shy people can just get over their shyness. All of them. Anyone can just stop crying at something traumatic and horrible, right? It's not at all just how their brain works. All of our emotions are easily managed.ZephyrFate said:
Trent Strong
Banned
ZephyrFate said:
There are times when suicide is completely rational, logical and reasonable.
ZephyrFate
Banned
I hope it's full of uplifting, inspirational quotes!MisterAnderson said:
Because I have this webpage open right here that I'm cutting and pasting from, I'm too lazy to use my talented writing skills to make anything better.
Liu Kang: Depends on your frame of reference. In Western society, we believe emotions are incredibly hard to manage or nearly impossible to. Elsewhere, though? That belief could be totally different. Grief, for example, is dealt with in so many different ways across human culture that it's nearly impossible to tell someone exactly how to deal with it.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
No one defends suicide. We're defending the people behind it, who are patronized, mocked, ridiculed, and ostracized for something they can't help and need help to manage.ZephyrFate said:
Telling a suicidal person that they're selfish or taking the easy way out just gets translated to something like "that person's right, I am fucking selfish. I can't do anything that's difficult. People hate me even more now, I'm becoming a bigger burden on everyone everyday, and I'm just making myself more pathetic." It doesn't help anyone. It makes the problem bigger. Tough love and brutal honesty isn't the right way to manage it.
Trent Strong said:
Only if you believe in a rewarding afterlife (like heaven) and that suicide wouldn't disqualify you from said afterlife. Or if you were in some kind of extremely implausible scenario like being in solitary confinement for the entire rest of your life with literally 0% chance of ever escaping it.
In every other case, it is not rational or logical. Being alive is better than being dead in 99.999999% of circumstances.
ZephyrFate
Banned
Telling them there is always a way out or a solution is meant to be inspirational and uplifting, providing hope and a future. The fact that that gets translated to condescension around here makes me lol.Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
It doesn't need to get translated. It is condescension. It's always "everything's easy for me, just do what I did, you sad motherfucker!"ZephyrFate said:
Who the hell isn't telling suicidal people that there is a way out or a solution? We all do. You just don't know how to do it in a way that doesn't reveal incredible ignorance and selfishness.
ZephyrFate
Banned
Ah yes, because that's exactly what I said. You're making it condescension when it clearly is not. And I've said that to people who I know who were suicidal and completely turned them around.Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
BrLvgThrChmstry
Banned
ZealousD said:
If you say so? apparently...
The pain the suicidal person feels in unnecessarily prolonging their lifespan often times outweighs the total pain close relatives will feel due to said person dying.
By the way--if you're a Princeton PhD candidate, chances are your life hasn't sucked as much as many other suicidal-types who have gone through with suicide. Just saying.
The suicide note indicates the man was very much sane upon his death. He had abstained from drugs/alcohol many months prior to death (the vast majority of suicides involve drugs/alcohol post-mortem), and he was no doubt an intelligent man. I've always felt suicide can be rationalized in a sane state of mind given the right person--but our evolutionary biases tend to convince us any form of suicide is innately insane.
By the way--if you're a Princeton PhD candidate, chances are your life hasn't sucked as much as many other suicidal-types who have gone through with suicide. Just saying.
The suicide note indicates the man was very much sane upon his death. He had abstained from drugs/alcohol many months prior to death (the vast majority of suicides involve drugs/alcohol post-mortem), and he was no doubt an intelligent man. I've always felt suicide can be rationalized in a sane state of mind given the right person--but our evolutionary biases tend to convince us any form of suicide is innately insane.
Sorry, 0 proof for this unless your source includes dubious antidepressant commercials from the likes of Eli Lilly etc.Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
Femmeworth
Banned
I know I shouldn't be coming into this thread to say anything, but...
From his letter, it sounds like he finally got the peace that he deserved. Perhaps he could have gotten better, but no one can really know for sure.
ZephyrFate said:
From his letter, it sounds like he finally got the peace that he deserved. Perhaps he could have gotten better, but no one can really know for sure.
WickedAngel
Banned
It's easy to call dead people cowards when you don't have to wake up every day and face the kinds of things that a lot of people commit suicide over.
Trent Strong
Banned
ZealousD said:
What if you're in constant physical or mental pain? Even if you don't believe in an afterlife, not existing is better than being in constant pain. But a person's situation doesn't have to be that dramatic, they could just be completely alone, or mentally ill and homeless, etc. There are plenty of situations where suicide would be rational and logical, even if they don't believe in an afterlife.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I've never been able to take the position of "its their life, let them do with it what they will", since I've talked and even called the cops on several suicidal people and always without fail afterwards they tell me "thanks for stopping me man. I wasn't in my right mind"
(And in the case of one girl trying to kill herself again six months later, then thanking me for stopping her and turning her life around, then getting depressed and trying to kill herself six months later, then thanking me for stopping her....I do what I must, but thank god she found more support)
This guy though...yeah....don't know if I can argue with that.
(And in the case of one girl trying to kill herself again six months later, then thanking me for stopping her and turning her life around, then getting depressed and trying to kill herself six months later, then thanking me for stopping her....I do what I must, but thank god she found more support)
This guy though...yeah....don't know if I can argue with that.
Femmeworth
Banned
Yeah, I'm still around. On a subjective "deserves to commit suicide" scale, he sounds like a 10, while I am only a 2 or so. Objectively, it's really hard to say if one person has the right to commit suicide more so than another person.xelios said:
The only people who understand this are either a) the dysthymic "generally in a low mood" types, or b) those who have decent lives but are intellectually enlightened on this matter. Regrettably, this means the majority discourage suicide under just about all circumstances.Trent Strong said:
I'll posit a situation for anti-suicide gaf:
say you have no long-term responsibilities to tend to (e.g. kids, financial duties, etc.), yet you experience no happiness in life and it is overwhelmingly unlikely that this can change within any bearable time-frame. The net sorrows far outweigh the net joys of life. How can you possibly deny one the right to suicide, barring religious reasons?
Trent Strong said:
Define what you mean by "pain" in this instance. How excruciating are we talking about? If the pain is severe enough that the pain becomes 100% your life and that pain-killing drugs seem to have little to no effect, then I guess not living might be preferable to living. But I don't really consider that kind of circumstance to be "suicide", since anybody in that kind of pain is probably on their way to a natural death anyway.
If you're seriously mentally ill, than chances are you don't have the capacity to think rationally or logically, in which case it would be hard to argue that choosing suicide would be a rational or logical decision.
And being homeless is certainly not excuse enough to commit suicide. Neither is being "alone". Nobody is truly alone unless they're involuntarily placed into solitary confinement.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
ZephyrFate said:
:lol
It's the exact opposite. Prozac, Ritalin, 'the secret', and so on all share the same quality of modernity: the belief that everything can be known and controlled.
In fact, we believe it's so easy, we (and by we I mean the general image of society) don't tolerate people who "can't keep themselves in line" or "can't be positive". Or even worse, who can't bring themselves to 'think positively', because after all, thinking is "free" and "so. damn. easy". All of this is only possible in a system of metaphysical dualism, where mind and being are completely separate from one another.
Which is what you have been saying in this thread all this time.
Btw, modern philosophy and science is actively breaking down the barriers of metaphysical dualism. Nowadays, the epidemic effects of what we eat on how we feel are legit fields of research, where they were previously considered to be 'stupid, because though is free'. This is an enormous paradigm shift which is actively going in this very day and age.
I'll give you some slack for not being aware of all this. Also: prozac is prescribed as a tool against an otherwise 'unchangeable state', which is what you probably meant. In my view however, it appeals to the idea of easy control of the emotional state through drugs. For which there is actually very little proof that it does what it's supposed to do and that doesn't actually worsen the states of most of its users.
Active change by thought and action is possible, but it is really (,really) hard, a lot of hard work and restraint, and requires more than an individual decision to make a change. People can't change their own lives if they live in an environment where other people won't let them. Neither if people do let them, but they won't themselves. But it can be done, with a lot of effort and no easy fixes.
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