I was always pretty hostile to people who committed suicide. Then I read this story.

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If you kill yourself for something stupid like a girlfriend dumping you then you're a retard IMO. I'd you do it because your suffering from something not fixable say severe pain that also destroys the life you wish to lead then I'm okay with it. People saying it's a selfish act because of the grief it causes to others are the selfish ones.
 
I can't fault the guy. At least he no longer has to feel the pain. I hope his death was relatively painless.



I tend to blame his parents more than the rapist. Rape fucking sucks . . . but if you have no one you can trust, not even your parents . . . well then you are history. I think his parents could have literally saved him . . . instead they were more worried about 'saving' some nonexistent soul.
 
I can't help but wonder who did this to the poor guy. And honestly, I think arguing about suicide is missing the point here.

The point being how utterly unforgivable mental, physical and sexual abuse of children really is, and how far reaching the consequences are.
 
EmSeta said:
The point being how utterly unforgivable mental, physical and sexual abuse of children really is, and how far reaching the consequences are.
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Yeah. After reading this, I now know that I would have no problem killing any person that sexually abused my daughter. Fuck 'em.
 
I'm against people who feel the need to go against the biological imperative to stay alive, as there's always a way out. In most cases, it does appear cowardly.

"The absence of choice is a circumstance that is very, very rare."
 
big_z said:
If you kill yourself for something stupid like a girlfriend dumping you then you're a retard IMO.
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I think you're using this as a loose example, and yes nearly all who are depressed for a while after breakups feel sadness that time will heal, but Zeller's note speaks to the mind of a clinically depressed person that for whom just living is painful. The darkness he describes was brought on by rape (i.e. one of the most awful things that can happen to a person), but a person could have lifelong darkness brought on initially by any reason/event, or even for no tangible reason that he/she can describe.
 
ZephyrFate said:
I'm against people who feel the need to go against the biological imperative to stay alive, as there's always a way out. In most cases, it does appear cowardly."
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Sometimes 'the way out' is just a long slow depressing slide into depression & alcoholism where you have given up but you just lack the fortitude to end it all. Is that really better? Maybe. I dunno. I'll let each person decide.
 
speculawyer said:
Sometimes 'the way out' is just a long slow depressing slide into depression & alcoholism where you have given up but you just lack the fortitude to end it all. Is that really better? Maybe. I dunno. I'll let each person decide.
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I would say the lack of fortitude is a lack of courage, which goes back to the cowardice point.
 
edit - Nevermind, I don't think I have anything terribly insightful to add to this thread. I just think its terrible how in the end he decided he'd rather be dead than labeled a rape victim.
 
I can't fault the guy. At least he no longer has to feel the pain. I hope his death was relatively painless.
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He hanged himself and didn't die right away. That has gotta be painful..
 
Ugh, and this is why I hate pedophiles and the sick fucks that defend them (especially here on GAF).

And as much as it sucks to say it...people who get molested as children should probably be watched as well because their minds get broken like this guys. He even said he could have killed. Some others just perpetuate it.
 
CrankyJay said:
Ugh, and this is why I hate pedophiles and the sick fucks that defend them (especially here on GAF).

And as much as it sucks to say it...people who get molested as children should probably be watched as well because their minds get broken like this guys. He even said he could have killed. Some others just perpetuate it.
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No one here defends pedophiles. This is a recurring sentence and I find it more hilarious every time someone utters it. :lol
 
Yeah depression is a complex issue.

A cognitive-chemical loop does exist though.

Given that your mind is emergent from the physical-chemical processes of your brain; it would follow that the physical-chemical processes that create your thoughts would also have affect on the physical-chemical processes that shape it.

The tricky bit here is that there are factors external to cognition that can affect that loop; drugs, genetic issues creating chemical instabilities, etc.

Moreover, what it affects is not the explicit conscious cognition, but the underlying cognition and even the emotional decision maker of the brain; if your underlying unconcious brain processes normally, but the emotional decision maker (which can be thought of as the fast decision maker, or gatekeeper between the concious and unconscious) is faulty; rejecting acceptable outputs, then it screws up the entire process of brain function.

Modern medicine has allowed us to moderate for the more troubling chemical imbalances; but they really just mask the symptoms while not treating the underlying pathology. Moreover, the relationship between drugs (which have significant side effects), user and side effects that naturally emerges is not a healthy one, and in many cases can deepen cognitive sources of depression.

Still, you're better off giving the medicated path a shot then going at it alone. Your best bet is a combination of medication and counselling... it's no guarantee, but it's helped many.

Unfortunately at least in this case, the only thing we're going to really be able to take away from this is that, if you do find yourself suffering from depression; thinking dark thoughts about your own self worth that is incongruent with your current situation or affairs, then you might want to seek some help; there's no shame in understanding that there are chemical forces in your brain that are outside your direct and explicit control that can affect the way you think and live... quite the opposite indeed.
 
I hate that someone has to be so haunted by a dark moment in their past. I know someone who is a lot like him. He hated his parents because they were religious and conservative. He said that his mother was stupid for loving his sister unconditionally, and he would sometimes just turn off completely and stop reacting to people because he was depressed. Most people can look past things that irritate them about some people, they wouldn't hate somebody for it.

I can't relate to this gentleman. Especially when he admits his mother truly loved him, but he thinks the world would be better with her dead. Baffles me. It makes me think that there was something more going on in his mind.

I wonder if it is possible that somebody who is depressed can construct false memories of molestation to help explain away their introverted nature. His reluctance to name his assailant, especially given the specific nature in which he attacked his family, leads me to believe that these memories POSSIBLY were not 100 percent clear to him, as well. Earliest memories are rarely clear. Or, it could have been a repeated childhood occurring by someone he cares about in some way. Who knows. I wouldn't call it senseless. He articulated his reasons well. It's just really unfortunate he was dealt the hand he got.

And I implore you GAF to read that last paragraph with an open mind, and know that I am not badmouthing this guy or accusing him of lying. I'm just wondering if this happens in psychology.
 
So it's another of those White Knight type thread were people that commit suicide are labeled as weak, dumb,selfish and have serious mental problems. Well too bad for you, life is not always equally kind to everybody. Some problems in life have no easy solution. Some people have to deal with stuff much bigger than your every life issues. The guy in this case in one of them. I absolutely loathe those who keep saying textbook answer like well there is "always a solution" or "well that was selfish".
 
lightless_shado said:
How much help would psychology be? what I mean is, if he sat down every day for 4 hours with a psychiatrist, could his condition improve? or does it just stay as it is like some people who have brain damage. If you feel its fit to compare a person who has depression to one who may have Downe syndrome for example to one who is depressed then I guess the proper drugs would be the only solution, or there may be no solution. I'd like to read what you think.
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Put it like this: Did you saw Good Will Hunting? I literally cried like the guy in the film when my shrink told me that "It wasn't my fault". I left the Docs office trembling, that was on my first session. I still needed several months of different chemicals to become a functional human being again, though.
 
Vamphuntr said:
So it's another of those White Knight type thread were people that commit suicide are labeled as weak, dumb,selfish and have serious mental problems. Well too bad for you, life is not always equally kind to everybody. Some problems in life have no easy solution. Some people have to deal with stuff much bigger than your every life issues. The guy in this case in one of them. I absolutely loathe those who keep saying textbook answer like well there is "always a solution" or "well that was selfish".
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Dude, that's not white-knighting. White knighting has to do with women.
 
Vamphuntr said:
So it's another of those White Knight type thread were people that commit suicide are labeled as weak, dumb,selfish and have serious mental problems. Well too bad for you, life is not always equally kind to everybody. Some problems in life have no easy solution. Some people have to deal with stuff much bigger than your every life issues. The guy in this case in one of them. I absolutely loathe those who keep saying textbook answer like well there is "always a solution" or "well that was selfish".
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There is always a solution.
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
I don't really know, and I don't think anyone does, and that's why this is still such a big problem all over the world.

I know someone who developed schizophrenia in his early 20s. Apparently it's most common in men in their late teens and early 20s. A totally normal, beautiful person who ended up destroyed by his own twisted mind. And when you think back to his behavior for years, it all started to make sense. You could see it developing, though we didn't know what was happening. It's pretty sad how helpless these people are to themselves while heartless and ignorant people like the OP are mad at them. I'm glad something finally got through to the OP, though.
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I'm really sorry for your loss. As someone who's had a friend in similar circumstances can I just say I really appreciate how eloquently your convey yourself in these kind of threads, where as somebody like me would just get furious at posters and end up adding nothing as it would be utter nonsense which would diminish my views.
 
Souldriver said:
Except when doctors can't find the right combination of drugs to neutralize the wrong chemical processes in your brain.
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When that happens, my condolences. Still doesn't excuse killing yourself.
 
vas_a_morir said:
I agree with this, related to all things in life.
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I hope for you that you will never get afflicted by some serious neurodegenerative disorder that would not only give you intense pain 24 hours a day but would also leave you stuck in bed connected to a machine all day long. You cannot do anything and someone need to wipe your ass everyday and you need someone to feed you. You're basically a burden to the family and friend that need to take care of you but I would guess there is always a magical solution to everything. Maybe you could develop a cure to regenerate neurone yourself right? Of course some people will suicide because of depressions and related problems but there are more serious when there is no solution.
 
Souldriver said:
Yeah, that person should keep on experiencing a living nightmare 24/7 for our pleasure.
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Oh, trust me, that's exactly what I was saying. Keep on fighting the good hyperbole fight.

Vamphuntr: There is a difference between suicide and assisted suicide/euthanasia. I had to euthanize my father a year ago, and it was for his own good because a machine was all that kept him alive.
 
ZephyrFate said:
Oh, trust me, that's exactly what I was saying. Keep on fighting the good hyperbole fight.
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What are you saying then? If someone is literally on the verge of killing themselves because they can't bare life, and nothing can help them, what are they supposed to do, as there's is no "excuse to killing themselves".
 
CrankyJay said:
Why would anyone need to be excused? It's their life.
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That's fine, but just because they have the right does not suddenly make them immune to judgment. I'm not going to stop someone from doing it if they feel that's the only way out.
 
ZephyrFate said:
That's fine, but just because they have the right does not suddenly make them immune to judgment. I'm not going to stop someone from doing it if they feel that's the only way out.
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I don't think anyone is in a position to judge this guy. We couldn't possibly comprehend what he was experiencing on a daily basis. So to presume there was another way out is laughable. :lol
 
Kinyou said:
I can't understand people who can't understand people who commit suicide
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This. The arrogance lights a fury within me. Fuck them


big_z said:
If you kill yourself for something stupid like a girlfriend dumping you then you're a retard IMO. I'd you do it because your suffering from something not fixable say severe pain that also destroys the life you wish to lead then I'm okay with it. People saying it's a selfish act because of the grief it causes to others are the selfish ones.
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What's retarded is the idea that it's as simple as 'she broke up with me, I can't live on'. Holy shit. There are people who think world leaders are reptilians bent on world control, and that X president is the anti-christ. But the one thing that boggles my mind is the purified horseshit that simplifies and generalises people who are depressed enough to consider suicide.

If you haven't experienced similar thoughts and feelings, then who the fuck (speaking rhetorically) gives you the right to have an opinion on it.
 
CrankyJay said:
I don't think anyone is in a position to judge this guy. We couldn't possibly comprehend what he was experiencing on a daily basis. So to presume there was another way out is laughable. :lol
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There are ways to overcome trauma. Most people just ignore them.
 
ZephyrFate said:
There are ways to overcome trauma. Most people just ignore them.
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Again, you're being presumptuous. There are ways to overcome trauma, but not necessarily his trauma. And judging from his letter it sounds like he tried various things.
 
ZephyrFate said:
Vamphuntr: There is a difference between suicide and assisted suicide/euthanasia. I had to euthanize my father a year ago, and it was for his own good because a machine was all that kept him alive.
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To me there is not so much difference if the one in pain chooses to do so. If he is really in pain and he's a burden to everyone then I can understand his reason to do so. Of course it means someone agree with his view before he commits the act but sometime they might chose to do it by themselves simply because their family would try to convince him no to do so for various reasons (like love, ethics and religion) even if taking care of them make their life miserable. There are some medical condition that can make your life a living hell and there is no help you can get. I'm not saying it's ok to kill yourself for a relationship drama but I can understand that there are situations where there isn't much to do.
 
Souldriver said:
What are you saying then? If someone is literally on the verge of killing themselves because they can't bare life, and nothing can help them, what are they supposed to do, as there's is no "excuse to killing themselves".
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Well they obviously just should've tried harder and something something bootstraps.
 
ZephyrFate said:
There are ways to overcome trauma. Most people just ignore them.
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You're conveniently ignoring my post about a situation where someone has no way out. Where medical science can't help him or her. The "there's always a way" is a nice motto, but not always apt for every situation.

If there is no excuse to kill yourself if the situation is helpless, what can you do? Live your life in agony because other people want you to? You called it hyperbole in an attempt to dismiss it, but it's a genuine question.

Is your position still that they should just live their life until biology or bad luck relieves them from it, if not you'll judge them?
 
Cloudy said:
I was always mad at people who killed themselves for the pain they caused everyone else.
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The question I have is: What if it doesn't cause anyone else any pain? Is it okay then? The only people whom it will cause pain are the ones who care for/love you. If your parents are dead and you have no siblings or significant other, who is left to give a shit? Your co-workers? Their only pain is that they have to do a little extra work unti your replacement is hired and trained. Your friends? Maybe, depends on how close you really are to them Who else is there?
 
Souldriver said:
You're conveniently ignoring my post about a situation where someone has no way out. Where medical science can't help him or her. The "there's always a way" is a nice motto, but not always apt for every situation.

If there is no excuse to kill yourself if the situation is helpless, what can you do? Live your life in agony because other people want you to? You called it hyperbole in an attempt to dismiss it, but it's a genuine question.

Is your position still that they should just live their life until biology or bad luck relieves them from it, if not you'll judge them?
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Life is worth living.
 
vas_a_morir said:
I hate that someone has to be so haunted by a dark moment in their past. I know someone who is a lot like him. He hated his parents because they were religious and conservative. He said that his mother was stupid for loving his sister unconditionally, and he would sometimes just turn off completely and stop reacting to people because he was depressed. Most people can look past things that irritate them about some people, they wouldn't hate somebody for it.

I can't relate to this gentleman. Especially when he admits his mother truly loved him, but he thinks the world would be better with her dead. Baffles me. It makes me think that there was something more going on in his mind.

I wonder if it is possible that somebody who is depressed can construct false memories of molestation to help explain away their introverted nature. His reluctance to name his assailant, especially given the specific nature in which he attacked his family, leads me to believe that these memories POSSIBLY were not 100 percent clear to him, as well. Earliest memories are rarely clear. Or, it could have been a repeated childhood occurring by someone he cares about in some way. Who knows. I wouldn't call it senseless. He articulated his reasons well. It's just really unfortunate he was dealt the hand he got.

And I implore you GAF to read that last paragraph with an open mind, and know that I am not badmouthing this guy or accusing him of lying. I'm just wondering if this happens in psychology.
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i dont think that's the case here but that's a really interesting thought
 
CrankyJay said:
:lol

You're just trolling now.
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Don't particularly care. My views on suicide are not going to change, especially because I was at one point suicidal and then realized how stupid I was being.
 
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