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[pel1300]

No point in arguing with someone who believes they are right. Just because someone is destined for greatness and has royal lineage does NOT make them a Mary Sue.
If that is what makes you a Mary Sue, then Rey cannot possibly be a Mary Sue as her parents are nothing! She is in fact a Mary Sue because of that fact though... she is as skilled as anyone with Han's ship without having ever flown it. She is a master lightsaber user without having never used it. She requires no training to use the force or move a tonne of rocks! I mean honestly, how can she have no training whatsoever and be so adept at using the force? Luke required years of training and still got his ass handed to him by Vader. In fact, even the emperor kicked his ass at the end of ROTJ. He still couldn't beat Vader either is a saber fight.
There is NO WAy known that Luke is a Mary Sue. The ONLY reason why people bring up the Luke being a Mary Sue thing now is because they are butt hurt that anybody dare question a strong female lead as being far too overpowered in a series with set rules in regards to force training and usage.

Anyway, we are all wrong in regards to who is a Mary Sue because 1 guy in here says so...

Rey doesn't need training because she doesn't have conventional Force sensitivity per se....

Rey has an entirely new power: downloading

Whenever a man fails in her presence she downloads talent and skill in whatever the man failed in

-Han failing w/ the Falcon in TFA
-Kylo failing to tamper with her mind in TFA - so she becomes a master of mind control and dominates the Daniel Craig stormtrooper
-Finn failing to combat Kylo w/ a lightsaber - so she becomes super talented at lightsaber duels
-Finally in TLJ she meets Luke Skywalker, the BIGGEST LOSER AND FAILURE AT EVERYTHING, so she becomes super talented at everything imaginable and masters her jedi training in a day

 

[hecatomb]

last jedi was pretty trash, full of SJW nonsense.

 

[C4lukin2]

I enjoyed it, but it is super problematic in the sense that it does not move the story towards a compelling conclusion.

The Force Awakens created a nice, but uneven start to the trilogy. It did not do a great job of establishing where the universe was at, and I was not sure who was currently ruling the universe...

The Last Jedi, felt like an episode of Battlestar Galactica. Where a small group of rebels were being pursued by a dominant force, and if they got wiped out that was it.

And it is really fun in that way. A couple of dozen ships, and if they get wiped out by this pursuing army it is over for the good guys. But the villains pursuing them, they only send a fleet of ships that would have a difficult time controlling a couple of planets.

The state of the universe and the power of the First Order is completely lost on me.

But I love the idea of the film, as sort of a side story. But as a middle volume, it is very weak. It almost feels like this story could have been a comic leading to the major events that the Last Jedi would have built upon.

But unlike the original trilogy, it almost feels like the rebels already won. It did not elevate the conflict, it lacks desperation.

So I cannot even imagine what Episode 9 will be. And the stakes seem super low. But I am enjoying the ride unlike the prequels, and hope that maybe the creators can work it out into something more compelling.

I have a lot of complaints from the film, but it is more in the context of the bigger story. As a singular film unto itself I think it was super entertaining. As the middle film in an epic trilogy, they really messed up the second act, where the stakes become huge, and the protagonists situation seems dire.

 

[hariseldon]

I really would love an explanation on how exactly that lady who dropped the bombs at the start of the film didn't get sucked out of the ship, considering the ship was opened up right below her dropping bombs! How did she survive out in space??? That on top of various other flaws in this film ALMOST make it laughable...

I kinda gave that a pass at the time, I figured maybe some kind of shield system or whatever but as the film progressed with more really daft stuff like Leia/Superman it just became increasingly difficult to maintain suspension of disbelief.

 

[Elfstar]

I wish people would come up with their own arguments and words instead of just parroting what Max Landis said.

I think the problem is that Disney and all those other producers in today's entertainment business that really want to show off how much progressive and hip they are have kinda trapped themselves in a corner by chosing this childish, cringey interpretation of the STRONG COMPLETE BADASS FEMALE CHARACTER trope as their ultimate and definitive PR tool.
To me it just feels like Lucasfilm's writers were extremely afraid to attract any kind of criticism from the liberal media for Rey, that were already making an huge deal about how much important was to have a strong female lead in Star Wars or whatever.
So they thought that she had to have a scene where she showed that she needed no man, that she couldn't have any feminine trait whatsoever, that she had to be the strongest and the best at everything from the get-go no matter what, that she could never suffer or actually struggle against anyone, and that she had to be perfect in almost any way possible.
But that's what ultimately made her a boring, shallow and forgettable monodimensional character, and that's why these messy corporate efforts to be the wokest possible are just being counterproductive and ankward, in my opinion.

 

[Luffytubby]

Just because the majority disagrees with you does not make it dogpiling, stop playing the victim. Calling people man-children is not argument, it's abuse. Focus groups didn't exist in the 70s. Han Solo was better because, not burdened with carrying the main plot, and played by a superior actor, he had room to be more fun. Learn to deal better with people having differing opinions.

First of all - I don't have a problem with people having different opinions from my own. Secondly, it is dogpiling when facts about the key characteristics of what mary sue characters are based on, have been pointed out to you dozens of times to you in this thread, for you to still circle back to these same false talking points. Hiding behind "what the majoraty bla blah" doesn't make you right about anything. It just makes you a coward who can't string together a compelling argument on your own. You sound ignorant of the seminal work that SWs story structure was based on, as does your analysis of the characters.

Thirdly, focus groups have existed at least since the 40s, but that wasn't my point. My point was that SW, like a lot of fiction of its day, had simple one-dimensional hero characters targeted at them to appease the target audience. And again- Like Superman, Harry Potter and all the others, Luke Skywalker is a Mary Sue character. I am sorry that it is hard for you to hear- But the original SW movies, while cult classics and pop culture phenomenon are not great works of art- Neither are it's characters. Luke Skywalker was always one of the most simple, one-dimensional and worst acted, plain good boring characters who lacked nuance and drama. These regurgitated points about his training are pointless against the backdrop of what SW is about- A family drama about a 1337 space wizardz.

Fourth, the idea that Han Solo is a better character because he is a supporting character doesn't make any sense. There are countless movies where a good main character overshadows the side characters. Being a superior actor (lets be honest, Harrison Ford is not a great actor- He has stared in loved roles, but it doesn't make him a truly great actor with lots of range) doesn't mean your character necessarily is better. Liam Nesson is an amazing actor, but there is only so much you can do with shit dialogue and a bad plot. Han Solo, Yoda, Darth Vader and others are better characters than Luke Skywalker, not because their actors were better than Mark Hamil (because MH was serviceable) but because their characters had more drama, character development and conflict. Luke Skywalker refuses the call to action, but almost immediately does a 180, and follows the script, except for when it convenient for the plot to give him struggles. His character is pretty consistent in mood and attitude throughout. He never really shifts and like heroric mary sues of that type, he succeeds because of [born into it]. Again.

There are many paths and traits of a Mary Sue character, and one doesn't have to ring full bingo to register as such. The Last Jedi undid this worn out need for happy endings, pretty characters and good heros that are in danger, but never really fail to save the galaxy. So yeah, it's the act of a man-child to not look at the fiction you love with rose tinted glasses and actually take a critical look at it. The OT are cult classics, but not above scrutiny, and particularly Luke was just boring to me every time I revisited the old movies. I look at the movies- And even though I still love them, and really like Luke Skywalker for what he meant to me as a kid (with the admitted pandering) I have no problems being critical.

Ever since I saw Christian Alzmann's concept art from 2013 of "Luke the Hermit" ( IG ) looking like a broken soul, it rang much more true for me than Luke teh badass with all the fucking lame ass dumbed down fanservice that shit usually entail.

Have you SEEN A New Hope??? Or The Empire Strikes Back???

Many times. I studied the films in film school (as well as Joseph Campbell).

 

[pel1300]

First of all - I don't have a problem with people having different opinions from my own. Secondly, it is dogpiling when facts about the key characteristics of what mary sue characters are based on, have been pointed out to you dozens of times to you in this thread, for you to still circle back to these same false talking points. Hiding behind "what the majoraty bla blah" doesn't make you right about anything. It just makes you a coward who can't string together a compelling argument on your own. You sound ignorant of the seminal work that SWs story structure was based on, as does your analysis of the characters.

Thirdly, focus groups have existed at least since the 40s, but that wasn't my point. My point was that SW, like a lot of fiction of its day, had simple one-dimensional hero characters targeted at them to appease the target audience. And again- Like Superman, Harry Potter and all the others, Luke Skywalker is a Mary Sue character. I am sorry that it is hard for you to hear- But the original SW movies, while cult classics and pop culture phenomenon are not great works of art- Neither are it's characters. Luke Skywalker was always one of the most simple, one-dimensional and worst acted, plain good boring characters who lacked nuance and drama. These regurgitated points about his training are pointless against the backdrop of what SW is about- A family drama about a 1337 space wizardz.

Fourth, the idea that Han Solo is a better character because he is a supporting character doesn't make any sense. There are countless movies where a good main character overshadows the side characters. Being a superior actor (lets be honest, Harrison Ford is not a great actor- He has stared in loved roles, but it doesn't make him a truly great actor with lots of range) doesn't mean your character necessarily is better. Liam Nesson is an amazing actor, but there is only so much you can do with shit dialogue and a bad plot. Han Solo, Yoda, Darth Vader and others are better characters than Luke Skywalker, not because their actors were better than Mark Hamil (because MH was serviceable) but because their characters had more drama, character development and conflict. Luke Skywalker refuses the call to action, but almost immediately does a 180, and follows the script, except for when it convenient for the plot to give him struggles. His character is pretty consistent in mood and attitude throughout. He never really shifts and like heroric mary sues of that type, he succeeds because of [born into it]. Again.

There are many paths and traits of a Mary Sue character, and one doesn't have to ring full bingo to register as such. The Last Jedi undid this worn out need for happy endings, pretty characters and good heros that are in danger, but never really fail to save the galaxy. So yeah, it's the act of a man-child to not look at the fiction you love with rose tinted glasses and actually take a critical look at it. The OT are cult classics, but not above scrutiny, and particularly Luke was just boring to me every time I revisited the old movies. I look at the movies- And even though I still love them, and really like Luke Skywalker for what he meant to me as a kid (with the admitted pandering) I have no problems being critical.

Ever since I saw Christian Alzmann's concept art from 2013 of "Luke the Hermit" ( IG ) looking like a broken soul, it rang much more true for me than Luke teh badass with all the fucking lame ass dumbed down fanservice that shit usually entail.






Many times. I studied the films in film school (as well as Joseph Campbell).

No wonder you think Luke is a Mary Sue or a Gary Stu. You seem to be overthinking these films. A symptom of going to film school. They are just movies.

Just like doctors overthink dangers to their health.

 

[kunonabi]

Have you SEEN A New Hope??? Or The Empire Strikes Back???

its pre

First of all - I don't have a problem with people having different opinions from my own. Secondly, it is dogpiling when facts about the key characteristics of what mary sue characters are based on, have been pointed out to you dozens of times to you in this thread, for you to still circle back to these same false talking points. Hiding behind "what the majoraty bla blah" doesn't make you right about anything. It just makes you a coward who can't string together a compelling argument on your own. You sound ignorant of the seminal work that SWs story structure was based on, as does your analysis of the characters.

Thirdly, focus groups have existed at least since the 40s, but that wasn't my point. My point was that SW, like a lot of fiction of its day, had simple one-dimensional hero characters targeted at them to appease the target audience. And again- Like Superman, Harry Potter and all the others, Luke Skywalker is a Mary Sue character. I am sorry that it is hard for you to hear- But the original SW movies, while cult classics and pop culture phenomenon are not great works of art- Neither are it's characters. Luke Skywalker was always one of the most simple, one-dimensional and worst acted, plain good boring characters who lacked nuance and drama. These regurgitated points about his training are pointless against the backdrop of what SW is about- A family drama about a 1337 space wizardz.

Fourth, the idea that Han Solo is a better character because he is a supporting character doesn't make any sense. There are countless movies where a good main character overshadows the side characters. Being a superior actor (lets be honest, Harrison Ford is not a great actor- He has stared in loved roles, but it doesn't make him a truly great actor with lots of range) doesn't mean your character necessarily is better. Liam Nesson is an amazing actor, but there is only so much you can do with shit dialogue and a bad plot. Han Solo, Yoda, Darth Vader and others are better characters than Luke Skywalker, not because their actors were better than Mark Hamil (because MH was serviceable) but because their characters had more drama, character development and conflict. Luke Skywalker refuses the call to action, but almost immediately does a 180, and follows the script, except for when it convenient for the plot to give him struggles. His character is pretty consistent in mood and attitude throughout. He never really shifts and like heroric mary sues of that type, he succeeds because of [born into it]. Again.

There are many paths and traits of a Mary Sue character, and one doesn't have to ring full bingo to register as such. The Last Jedi undid this worn out need for happy endings, pretty characters and good heros that are in danger, but never really fail to save the galaxy. So yeah, it's the act of a man-child to not look at the fiction you love with rose tinted glasses and actually take a critical look at it. The OT are cult classics, but not above scrutiny, and particularly Luke was just boring to me every time I revisited the old movies. I look at the movies- And even though I still love them, and really like Luke Skywalker for what he meant to me as a kid (with the admitted pandering) I have no problems being critical.

Ever since I saw Christian Alzmann's concept art from 2013 of "Luke the Hermit" ( IG ) looking like a broken soul, it rang much more true for me than Luke teh badass with all the fucking lame ass dumbed down fanservice that shit usually entail.






Many times. I studied the films in film school (as well as Joseph Campbell).

TLJ's ending was presented as a happier ending than ESB so you're seeing what you want to in that regard. The characters are just as good looking, and aside from Kylo, are pretty one-dimensional with worse character arcs. Your nonsensical arguments about Luke being a mary sue seem to hinge on him being a generic good guy mostly motivated by needs of the story and the genre. This is hilarious considering Rey is 1000x worse in that department.

 

[Luffytubby]

No wonder you think Luke is a Mary Sue or a Gary Stu. You seem to be overthinking these films. A symptom of going to film school. They are just movies.

Just like doctors overthink dangers to their health.

This is just you deflecting. The classic ignoramus defense in the face of critique. I didn't even make any deep analytical points. Most people with basic reasoning that aren't triggered crybabies who needs to be pandered too constantly, gets the fucking premise. There isn't any overthinking, because it doesn't take deep thinking to realize that Star Wars was never great works of art, and the old films are open to a lot of scrutiny if you just being a hypocrite and actually take the same critique to the old movies as the new ones.

Most people cannot do that because they are too attached by nostalgia and rose-tinted glasses.

its pre


TLJ's ending was presented as a happier ending than ESB so you're seeing what you want to in that regard. The characters are just as good looking, and aside from Kylo, are pretty one-dimensional with worse character arcs. Your nonsensical arguments about Luke being a mary sue seem to hinge on him being a generic good guy mostly motivated by needs of the story and the genre. This is hilarious considering Rey is 1000x worse in that department.

Maybe if you read the thread, you'd realize I've already pointed out this many times. Rey is a total Mary Sue. Do you honestly think that because I am just pointing out stupidity and hypocrisy of posters, that I am defending the new movies or think they are better? No. I don't give a fuck about Rey, Finn or Poe. They fucking suck for the reasons you mentioned. Was addressed pages ago. Stop redirecting the argument. Whatever one dimensional poorly paced character Rey is, doesn't mean Luke Skywalker in OT is above scrutiny. So you are not saying anything new here. Abrams is bad at directing his actors and it shows in the new movies.

Also you completely failed to comprehend why Luke is a Mary Sue. That he is written as a generic good guy, just adds to the boring simplicity of his character, but that in himself is not what makes him Mary Sue. Him being a Skywalker. Him being born-into-power. Like Harry Potter or Superman. Characters who are great or succeed in large part to their special powers. Who gives a shit if they still have to learn or awaken their powers along the way. They are still destined into that shit, and that is one of the key characteristics of what a Mary Sue is.

 

[hariseldon]

Dude you're getting pretty hostile here, perhaps you should go for a lie down.

 

[Luffytubby]

Dude you're getting pretty hostile here, perhaps you should go for a lie down.

Nope, not hostile at all. Just pointing out the low effort some posters here are doing. Drive-by, dogpiling, bringing up already discussed talking points back, they left unaddressed for pages.

 

[pel1300]

This is just you deflecting. The classic ignoramus defense in the face of critique. I didn't even make any deep analytical points. Most people with basic reasoning that aren't triggered crybabies who needs to be pandered too constantly, gets the fucking premise. There isn't any overthinking, because it doesn't take deep thinking to realize that Star Wars was never great works of art, and the old films are open to a lot of scrutiny if you just being a hypocrite and actually take the same critique to the old movies as the new ones.

Most people cannot do that because they are too attached by nostalgia and rose-tinted glasses.





Maybe if you read the thread, you'd realize I've already pointed out this many times. Rey is a total Mary Sue. Do you honestly think that because I am just pointing out stupidity and hypocrisy of posters, that I am defending the new movies or think they are better? No. I don't give a fuck about Rey, Finn or Poe. They fucking suck for the reasons you mentioned. Was addressed pages ago. Stop redirecting the argument. Whatever one dimensional poorly paced character Rey is, doesn't mean Luke Skywalker in OT is above scrutiny. So you are not saying anything new here. Abrams is bad at directing his actors and it shows in the new movies.

Also you completely failed to comprehend why Luke is a Mary Sue. That he is written as a generic good guy, just adds to the boring simplicity of his character, but that in himself is not what makes him Mary Sue. Him being a Skywalker. Him being born-into-power. Like Harry Potter or Superman. Characters who are great or succeed in large part to their special powers. Who gives a shit if they still have to learn or awaken their powers along the way. They are still destined into that shit, and that is one of the key characteristics of what a Mary Sue is.

Stop acting condescending to people w/ differing opinions. And playing armchair psychiatrist to people who don't like the film!

You are really sounding like Armond White.

I am gonna get back to the rest of your post later but I have other things to do now.

 

[Luffytubby]

Stop acting condescending to people w/ differing opinions. And playing armchair psychiatrist to people who don't like the film!

You are really sounding like Armond White.

I am gonna get back to the rest of your post later but I have other things to do now.

I'm not condescending. Nor am I playing armchair psychologist. I am not defending TLJ or care about people liking it or not.


And please don't get back to me later. You've done more than enough to show a disturbing lack of critical thinking.

 

[Nikana]

Hated it. It felt the director had zero clue to what makes a star wars movie and simply did the opposite of what everyone wanted to subvert expectations instead if actually writing a a good story.

It legit killed my love for star wars.

 

[kunonabi]

Being born into power has nothing to do with being a Mary Sue.

Take Smallville for instance. Clark is the main character and born with powers but is never close to being a Mary Sue in that show. Lana on the other hand is and isnt born with jack aside from her looks.

Scrutiny is fine but you're being purposefully disingenuous in regards to the OT in order disminish the faults of TLJ. It's the same tired schtick people have been peddling for awhile now.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

I really would love an explanation on how exactly that lady who dropped the bombs at the start of the film didn't get sucked out of the ship, considering the ship was opened up right below her dropping bombs! How did she survive out in space??? That on top of various other flaws in this film ALMOST make it laughable...

The concept of gravity or danger is entirely inconsistent. That lady doesn’t get sucked out but Leia does. Amazingly, Finn and Rose are on the deck of the star destroyer that gets rammed into at light speed and none of them get sucked out either. Just Leia. Makes it feel arbitrary and a bit exploitative.

FWIW I enjoyed her space Jesus moment, Leia’s force powers had been hinted at since ESB so at least they showed her using it once before Carrie passed away...

 

[#Phonepunk#]

And yeah Luke as Mary Sue counter argument falls apart entirely since he is bitch slapped and dragged away to be Wampa food then he gets his ass handed to him by Vader, his hand cut off, crying for mercy and is only saved by Lando and Leia. If he was a Mary Sue he would have not been confronted by these hardships at all

 

[pel1300]

I'm not condescending. Nor am I playing armchair psychologist. I am not defending TLJ or care about people liking it or not.


And please don't get back to me later. You've done more than enough to show a disturbing lack of critical thinking.

Thank you for proving my point.

 

[ruvikx]

And yeah Luke as Mary Sue counter argument falls apart entirely since he is bitch slapped and dragged away to be Wampa food then he gets his ass handed to him by Vader, his hand cut off, crying for mercy and is only saved by Lando and Leia. If he was a Mary Sue he would have not been confronted by these hardships at all

Even the Emperor bitch slapped Luke at the end of Return of the Jedi with his force lightning. "Father... please", i.e. he asked daddy to save his ass at the end of the third movie. Rey on the other hand is nothing more than a cinematic equivalent of someone playing Knights of the old Republic with an invincibility mod. That would be Kathleen Kennedy, apparently.

 

[royox]

Luke is absolutely a mary sue. Gone over this a billion times.

Mary Sue: Definition (Wikipedia)
"A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience, and usually are able through some means to upstage the main protagonist of an established fictional setting, such as by saving the hero. A male can also be referred to as a Marty Stu, Larry Stu, or Gary Stu, but the name Mary Sue is more commonly used."

Let's see if Luke matches this definition:

>Seemingly Perfect fictional character.

Perfect (that can't fail.)
usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience



>Got Wampae'd

>Got hit while piloting the Snowspeeder, crashed, couldn't save his friend from being crushed

>Expends most of his time with Yoda complaining. "It's not possible, it's too hard, you demmand the impossible". Couldn't lift his X-Wing with the force.

>Loses hand against Vader

>Went to Bespin to "help his friends". In the end he couldn't do shit, it was a trap set for HIM, he ate the whole bait as the spoiled brat he was and had to be rescued by the Millenium Falcon that had to do a 180º turn while they were trying to scape from the planet chased by Tie fighters and could have cost everyone's lifes.

>ALMOST lost agains Bobba Fett in 1vs1 battle. Won cause he reflected a blaster bolt from another source to Bobba's jetpack

>Fucked up the whole Rebel plan on Endor's moon just because his presence on the ship
(no gif)

>Fell into Palpatine's provocation and almost fell to the Dark Side when tried to strike him down while unnarmed.

>The "PERFECT JEDI" literally powered up with the Dark Side in a full anger attack to beat Vader after he provoqued him talking about converting Leia

>NO COMMENTS NEEDED

We also have a whole movie showing us HIS TRAINING with Yoda and part of A New Hope being taught by Obi Wan. Compare all that with Rey.

Most of what Luke did after blowing up the Death Star was FAILING and FUCKING UP stuff around him. Almost died in Hoth, crashed in Dagobah, ate the bait of Vader on Bespin, lost against Vader and lost a hand and his lightsaber, had to be saved by the falcon on Bespin that was already hands full scaping from ties, fucked up the whole "surprise attack on Endor" just by being there, fell to the dark side TWICE in ROTJ, couldn't do shit against Palpatine and had to be saved by Vader. That's why I love grumpy Luke on TLJ, because he notices it, he notices he always fucks up just by being there because he always thinks "he's so powerful, he's so infalible".

 

[Luffytubby]

snip

Struggling in the hero's journey doesn't mean anything. Nobody said a Mary Sue cannot struggle, stumble or learn. That's not relevant to bazillion of variations on the Trope. That wiki article is pretty glarring in its lack of depth regarding the subject. TV Tropes has a better categorization of the wholesome meaning of the term. "In other words, the term "Mary Sue" is generally slapped on a character who is important in the story, possesses unusual physical traits, and has an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature." - List of some of the many variations of Mary Sue tropes.

At the end of the day, Lukes training means fuck all. He is not saving the galaxy because of some training or experience. He saves the galaxy because he is a Skywalker and is impossible strong in the force. SW is not about hard work paying off. It's about a ultra powerful family of force users. The OT, PT, ST and EU all support this notion.
For a character to be a Mary Sue, it can meet and break from certain elements of what encompasses a Mary Sue. Doesn't mean it's not because its not full bingo.



The gist of your argument is that because Luke struggles he cannot be a Mary Sue. Rey struggles. Harry Potter struggles. Superman struggles. Struggles, training and learning the nature of the character's power doesn't mean they are not unnaturally overpowered cited by their blood, lineage or character specific trait that comes from a place outside of the characters own action. You're born with it. Maybe it's just being a Mary Sue.

 

[hariseldon]

Soo... royox points out a million ways Luke gets fucked by all and sundry and ..

He saves the galaxy because he is a Skywalker and is impossible strong in the force

At this point I think we have to conclude that someone here is hard of reading. At this point my patience with his bullshit is done.

 

[royox]

He saves the galaxy because he is a Skywalker and is impossible strong in the force.

He doesn't. After saving Han EVERYTHING Luke does in ROTJ is pointless to "save the galaxy". The rebels blew up the Death Star with the emperor inside w/o his help. The Emperor would have died either way. Also Reminder that Vader killed the emperor, Luke was just there crying like a baby for daddy's help.

The gist of your argument is that because Luke struggles he cannot be a Mary Sue.

No, Luke doesn't struggle. Luke is a constant failure that always needs to be saved by others and the most important thing he did for the galaxy was destroying the first death star. Anything else he does means shit galaxywise.

Rey struggles

I love Rey but no She doesn't. She never left Jakku, yet she's an expert Pilot that flies the falcon better than Han Solo Himself the first second she sits on the pilot seat. She uses Force Mind Trick without even knowing that power is a thing. She uses Force Pull on Anakin's lightsaber without even knowing that's a thing. She beats Kylo Ren in 1vs1 lightsaber combat (Kylo was badly injured and was trying to persuade her...but come on a trained Jedi losing with a woman that just lit a lightsaber for the first time in her life). After training alone against a rock she manages to beat Snoke's guards as if she had any kind of expertise in lightsaber combat against big groups. She's so powerfull in the force that she can lift like tons and tons of rocs just because she desired, not even fucking Luke managed to lift his X-Wing with Yoda teaching him.

 

[Dazrael]

With all this talk of lineage I keep thinking back to Humperdoo in Preacher. Being in a strong family bloodline makes you a Mary Sue.........yeah.

 

[pramod]

It can be argued that Lukes story arc was complete after Empire. From that point on it became Darth Vaders story of redemption.

 

[MilkyJoe]

It can be argued that Lukes story arc was complete after Empire. From that point on it became Darth Vaders story of redemption.

It'd be a shit argument.

 

[Graven]

I liked more so than the first one(which i thought was good).

 

[Catphish]

You think that people that loved star wars for 40 years, invested so much time, energy, their money and their love in it, didn't deserve better than what they got? That it was too much to ask for a screen reunion of Han, Luke and Leia? That after all this time, and suffering through the terrible prequels, they didn't deserve something better than the disrespect and killing off of all the major characters? In favour of a cheap laugh and a Twilight-Carry-on cross over in space, that has fucked the entire franchise into a tree?

Kathleen Kennedy promised Lucas that she would respect the characters and the lore, but instead she purposefully destroyed it. All she had to do was commission three more movies that completed the Skywalker saga and then she had everyone's blessing to go do what ever the fuck she wanted, because no one would have cared after that, as long as they got a satisfying ending and three great movies.

People don't need to lighten up. If you don't understand their anger then there is something wrong with your brain. This was a one time opportunity. The decided that one chance was something to be fucked with, and now it's gone. They can't even wipe the fucking thing from canon, or at the very least have a flashback scene, as Carrie is gone. What they have done is unforgivable.

So no, people will not lighten up. The only point you are proving is the one that tells everyone you have no understanding here.

There are 2 types of fan. Real Star Wars fans and people that like the Last Jedi. The Latter are not the former.



P.S. You are wrong, Disney were wrong, Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson were so very wrong and it has cost them dearly. They were given the keys to Fuck Heaven, where all their wildest fantasies would come true, but instead they tossed that key down a drain and had a wank into a discarded sock.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

It can be argued that Lukes story arc was complete after Empire. From that point on it became Darth Vaders story of redemption.

Each movie sort of retconned the overall narrative, at first it was “The Adventures of Luke Skywalker” and really only became Vader centric once the prequels were out. This due to everyone asking him “You wrote this whole thing out?” with hundreds of millions on the line. Tbh he did write most of it just not a 9 part linear story, so he was correct “from a certain point of view”. By ROTJ it I clear he felt like he was painting himself into a corner, thus Obi Wan trying to explain away his retcons.

Before they made ROTJ there were various ST threads like Luke’s twin sister and the Emperor as new big bad that were going to carry over to a ST. But for many reasons, personal and financial, Lucas wanted to end it and put a sense of finality to it. It destroyed his marriage, which in turn cut in half all the money he had made from the series at that point, and he wanted done w it.

The PT was still a future possibility but by the time he got to making it, fan demand for Vader has influenced things and it changed from “young days of Ben Kenobi” to “it was always about Vader”.

Personally I can’t blame and if you have ever been involved in a creative project w outside pressure u can see why he did what he did. The myth of an overarching narrative was his cross to bear, until the prequel backlash demonstrated it was time for someone else to take the blame.

JJ and RJ are just rearranging the stuff this guy spent decades of his life creating & fostering

 

[pramod]

It'd be a shit argument.

I guess what I meant was in terms of a character arc, I felt Luke's was complete after he rejected Vader's offer to join him, and was willing to sacrifice his life rather than join the dark side. Even if he died on Cloud City, he has passed "the test". To be honest I felt like Luke wasn't as interesting as a character anymore after Empire. We knew he was going to be a Jedi, he was going to kick ass, etc. At that point Vader became a much more interesting character because he was still conflicted and we don't know if he will be redeemed as well.

 

[pramod]

BTW while we are criticizing the Last Jedi, one of my biggest gripes of the movie has nothing to do with Luke or even Rey, it's the whole idea of The First Order. Why do they even exist? What do they want to accomplish?

We all saw what it took for Palpatine to take over the galaxy. It took decades of planning, deception, and politics maneuvering. He didn't just show up with a super weapon and then threaten everyone to join his Empire. Because it can't logically work, when you have THOUSANDS of star systems with their own armies and ships that could possibly stand up against him. But that seems to be exactly what The First Order is trying to do. What's their plan? They are basically a bunch of guys in a bunch of space ships going from place to place, how are they going to take over an entire galaxy, if that is their goal?

That's why their existence, and why there is seemingly so little resistance to them from the other star systems, makes no sense at all in the context of the SW universe and timeline. It's as if the writers pretended the entire prequel series didn't exist.

Also I did a bit of research on online discussion about this. I guess the explanation (before TLJ) was that TFO was just a small remnant of the Empire, and that the New Republic did not want more war so they signed a peace treaty with them. Ok so now that Starkiller base blew up your capital planet, are you still "at peace" with them? Why aren't you sending up a massive armada to squash them like a bug? Why are still letting Leia's pitiful little band of "resistance" handle it? It just doesn't make any sense.

 

[pramod]

Also if I can throw in one last comment...yes I agree that SW and even the OT are "kids movies" and should not be taken seriously and criticized as such. But I would preface that with the fact that Lucas wrote these stories and built his universe like he was a serious sci fi writer although he obviously wasnt one. And this showed in the 6 movies he produced. That's why there is world building in every scene and there is a consistent logical feel to everything. None of that carried over in the ST. Thats why even though they may be technically superior, its hard to old school fans to enjoy them in the same way.

 

[Nymphae]

Haven't gotten to his TLJ review yet, but this TFA critique is fantastic



He spends upwards of half an hour on the title crawl alone lol. Very good criticisms though, I will be watching more of this guy's movie related content.

 

[Nymphae]

The First Order. Why do they even exist? What do they want to accomplish?

The video I posted addresses this at length. They seemingly grew out of nowhere in the 30 years since Jedi, even though the empire was essentially ruined and the republic was in power and had no opposition. How the republic got into the sorry state it is in at the start of TFA is sort of a mystery the writers didn't seem too interested in. They simply wanted to recreate the "scrappy rebels vs. mega villains" scenario of A New Hope, even though the events of Return of the Jedi reversed that power imbalance.

 

[Menavanes]

Why didn't you like them? As for me, a very beautiful film.

 

[Komatsu]

The sequel trilogy is a dumpster fire - which is not entirely unexpected. Lucas, for all his faults, was the animating spirit behind Star Wars. Yeah, we know Kasdan & Kershner really came through with Empire Strikes Back but in the end, there was Lucas behind Irving, screaming "cut", pulling his hair out with the ILM technicians, approving every rewrite. Once he was gone, poof, we have Disney's particular style of mediocrity tainting everything, with those stupid, depressing Marvel visual gags, useless characters pandering to particular slivers of the global audience Mickey Mouse wants to reach, etc. etc. As Lucas said in one of his talks after retiring, people forget that for all the merch, games, etc., Star Wars was an indie film, funded independently and produced by a boutique studio (the then-independent Lucasfilm). That the very same audience that crucified Lucas for Jar Jar Binks were unstinting in their praise of The Force Awakens - the most shameless rip-off of an earlier installment ever attempted by a franchise flick - only shows that we Star Wars fans deserve everything we get.

If TFA was already a bad movie, The Last Jedi is I-don't-know-where-to-look bad. Its screenplay, if submitted as a capstone project at any half-decent film school, would be torn to shreds. The many rewrites, false starts and all the executive meddling show, like greasy fingerprints on a piano black console. Never mind the braindead dialogue, the fact that Ray's development negates everything we know about becoming strong with the force, or that, though there's only one film to go, we know nothing of the New Republic, or of the galaxy at large. It's a bad Star Wars movie. When that pink-haired general (!?) started chewing Poe Dameron out for being a reckless "flyboy" (this, my friends, on a Star Wars movie! yep, that Star Wars that Lucas dreamed in 1971 after two decades reading macho pulpy scifi like Flash Gordon!!), I almost left the theater.

I have no issues with people and fans asking for greater representation in film - I'm a Latino myself and grew up watching Hollywood use my country of birth as merely backdrop for their softcore exotica. But Star Wars is (or was...), at its core, a beautiful, powerful reactionary fantasy. It was never about a scrappy boy from the backlands rising to prominence, about how you can make it too with enough hard word and the love and support of your friends, but a story of destiny and power, of being born into greatness and being destroyed by it. As Lucas himself stated more than once, the saga should be seen as a visual epic poem, as a mythos. And that doesn't play well in the current climate.

 

[Luffytubby]

He doesn't. After saving Han EVERYTHING Luke does in ROTJ is pointless to "save the galaxy". The rebels blew up the Death Star with the emperor inside w/o his help. The Emperor would have died either way. Also Reminder that Vader killed the emperor, Luke was just there crying like a baby for daddy's help.'

No, Luke doesn't struggle. Luke is a constant failure that always needs to be saved by others and the most important thing he did for the galaxy was destroying the first death star. Anything else he does means shit galaxywise.

What are you talking about? Luke defeats vader and wins via pacifism as he throws away his lightsaber. He has already won as he is not falling to the same mistakes (and the dark side) as his father. There wouldn't have been a second death star without the first. Luke already saved the galaxy due to his destiny of being. He defeats the most powerful villain (vader) in hand-to-hand combat, and due to his good nature, refuses to fall to the dark side. He has totally won.

I love Rey but no She doesn't. She never left Jakku, yet she's an expert Pilot that flies the falcon better than Han Solo Himself the first second she sits on the pilot seat. She uses Force Mind Trick without even knowing that power is a thing. She uses Force Pull on Anakin's lightsaber without even knowing that's a thing. She beats Kylo Ren in 1vs1 lightsaber combat (Kylo was badly injured and was trying to persuade her...but come on a trained Jedi losing with a woman that just lit a lightsaber for the first time in her life). After training alone against a rock she manages to beat Snoke's guards as if she had any kind of expertise in lightsaber combat against big groups. She's so powerfull in the force that she can lift like tons and tons of rocs just because she desired, not even fucking Luke managed to lift his X-Wing with Yoda teaching him.

It takes many years to be a fully trained jedi, Luke spends little time at all training in comparison what a regular jedi would go through. Yoda even dismisses him because he is to old, but hey- what does that matter since continuity in these movies have always been shit. Rey is just more of the same bullshit. Anakin literally doesnt know how to pilot a starship but destroys a massive blockade of ships that risks spiralling the republic into chaos. Why do they succeed? Because they are skywalkers we're told. Its not training. its not from help from their friends. they just something something strong in the force.

 

[royox]

What are you talking about? Luke defeats vader and wins via pacifism as he throws away his lightsaber. He has already won as he is not falling to the same mistakes (and the dark side) as his father. There wouldn't have been a second death star without the first. Luke already saved the galaxy due to his destiny of being. He defeats the most powerful villain (vader) in hand-to-hand combat, and due to his good nature, refuses to fall to the dark side. He has totally won.

And it's pointless.Every Scenario in the 2nd Death Star makes Luke pointless for the galaxy:

-Luke beats Vader, loses against emperor, Vader kills the emperor. >>> Lando and Wedge destroy the Death Star. Every villain dies. Galaxy saved.
-Luke loses against Vader and falls to the dark side >>> Lando and Wedge destroy the Death Star. Every villain dies. Galaxy saved.
-Luke beats Vader and the Emperor >>> Lando and Wedge destroy the Death Star. Every villain dies. Galaxy saved.
-Luke dies against Vader >>> Lando and Wedge destroy the Death Star. Every villain dies. Galaxy saved.


Every scenario of the battle of Endor makes Luke pointless for the galaxy. Palpatine was going to die inside the Death Star with Luke winning or not.

It takes many years to be a fully trained jedi, Luke spends little time at all training in comparison what a regular jedi would go through. Yoda even dismisses him because he is to old, but hey- what does that matter since continuity in these movies have always been shit. Rey is just more of the same bullshit.

He expent some time with Yoda and Obi Wan and learned to move little rocks, jump higher, deflect some blasters with the lightsaber and use force pull. Rey used MindTrick on a StormTrooper out of nowhere and force pull to atract Luke's lightsaber. Powers she didn't even know existed. How is that even the same?

Anakin literally doesnt know how to pilot a starship but destroys a massive blockade of ships

Anakin? The kid that build his own Pod Racer and won the race on Mos Eisley? That kid? He tells R2 to shut down the Auto pilot, gets the controls pretty fast (he even compares it to a pod racer) and CRASHES inside the ship. They won that battle by pure luck, Ani destroyed the ship firing by accident the torpedoes while he was trying to turn on the engines of the naboo starfighter.

 

[hariseldon]

royox you have far more patience than me, and more than the zealot deserves. He's not here to debate, he's here to preach, much like TLJ, making the conversation irrelevant.

 

[Nymphae]

On Rey being a Mary Sue (video starts at relevant point)



"She is a person with no flaw that could be considered something to work on personally while being incredible at every activity she engages in."

 

[#Phonepunk#]

for instance let's look at Han Solo. he's a rogue, a scoundrel, a mercenary with no love for anyone at the start of ANH. Obi Wan brings Luke to Mos Eisley looking for transport and they find Han but he takes some talking into. the only reason he signs on is Obi Wan promises him a ton of money, up front even, and then he is complaining about having to rescue a princess and all that.

here, he just shows up and runs into the main characters at random. they end up losing all of his cargo, which you can't just write off because JJ made Han Solo do this one thing for the 40 years following ROTJ. this is Han's entire life now, he has lost the woman he loves, his only (?) child is a mass murderer, his smuggling is supposedly the only thing he has left (in the same clothes even). this cargo was valuable enough for two warring clans to come for it, but they lose it, and not only does he not get mad at them, he loves them instantly. a few minutes later he makes Rey a permanent member of the crew, a status he presumably has only given Chewbacca. difference is, Chewbacca and Han have been through real shit together, torture, prison, bounty hunters, etc. this just comes out of nowhere, it's arbitrary.

it's just one unearned promotion after another tbh. not saying there are no redeeming qualities to her character, but that every character as a whole is sort of written this way. this is the Disney house style, you see it in their cartoons, in their tv shows. the characters are always super confident and have a smirk and are kind of meta aware of everything. they are stepping into a proven brand and only have to perform the perfunctory tasks to be "the best Star Wars rebel" or "the best Spiderman" or "the best x". true a lot of stuff is like this nowadays but tbh i find it lazy and call it out no matter what it's in.

 

[pramod]

I dunno why people are saying Palpatine would have died in the Death Star. If Luke was able to get out why couldnt Palpatine and Vader have?

 

[Torrent of Pork]

Star Wars episode 2 was a shitty Star Wars movie.

Star Wars episode 8 made me never want to dignify a Star Wars property with a day 1 purchase ever again, because it just didn't matter anymore.

Good job Disney/Kennedy, I was raised on Star Wars, and you made me not care anymore. There should be some kind of recognition for 'Greatest Fandom Destroyed'.

 

[pramod]

Episode 2 was not a "good" movie, but the amount of world building in that movie was insane. I just rewatched it and was amazed by all the content Lucas squeezed into it.

 

[hariseldon]

I re-watched the prequels recently and they're not as bad as people say. The acting and dialogue are poor in ep 2 but the films are enormously ambitious in a the ways the sequels aren't, taking huge risks. I had a good time watching them.

 

[Johnny Silver]

"How does Neogaf feel about the Last Jedi?"

Trash.

A simple and accurate description of this abomination.

 

[pel1300]

I just posted my review of this on imdb:

This "sequel" feels like a joke parody of Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens, which was criticized for being a rehash of the original Star Wars. This movie feels like it is overreacting to that criticism by parodying The Force Awakens - it blatantly copies visuals and recreates scenes from The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi and just flips or twists the result of each scene. At one point it gets so close to plagiarism that they have an extra break the fourth wall to taste the ground and tell us "This is not Hoth because it's a salt planet, not a snow planet". I literally laughed out loud at certain scenes with dialogue ripped straight from Return of the Jedi ("I feel the conflict in you", "Now...fulfill...your...DESSSTINNYYYYY!") My cousin sitting next to me in the theater laughed in reaction to my laughter.

Recreating scenes from the older movies and just tweaking or twisting the result of the scene is not original at all if you ask me. It gets so predictable and annoying when you have a "GOTCHA!" moment every 10 minutes. It's like the writer/director is trolling the audience.

The 1st draft of the film's screenplay was used....and it was mostly complete while Lucasfilm was making The Force Awakens. This is mind blowing that a major company would handle a billlion dollar franchise this way. Letting one director come in and just write his own thing while having no idea what the next film's director and writer will do to finish the trilogy. It's the polar opposite of what Marvel Studios did when they mapped out a 10 year plan for the MCU movies. They didn't have a detailed outline but they did have a broad one and stuck to it for the most part with minor adjustments (including Spider-man was not planned until Marvel made a deal with Sony in 2015). But back to Lucasfilm and their lack of a plan for this new trilogy....

What kind of business decision is this? They took an adventure fantasy franchise aimed at people of all ages and cultures....and turned it into slow space chase scene...like Mad Max Fury Road in space at 1 mile per hour with the story revolving around the rebels running out of fuel...it's even more boring on film than it sounds. Maybe a more apt title would have been Star Wars: The Last Gallon.

And on top of that the movie is insulting to the audience when it starts trying to preach to us about Western politics and social issues.....in an adventure escapist fun franchise that is supposed to entertain people of all ages from all cultures around the world?? Lucasfilm, what were you thinking?!

Disney, you gotta micromanage Lucasfilm more now because it's clear that Kathleen Kennedy doesn't know what she is doing and prioritizing pushing her agenda over quality filmmaking. On the other hand, Disney, you can let Marvel Studios continue to do their thing because Kevin Feige clearly knows what he's doing and has always had a vision for the MCU. Kennedy clearly doesn't. She's not even a Star Wars fan and has not once even talked about Star Wars in interviews other than mentioning how cute Porgs are or how cute BB8 is...or how "strong" the women in this film are.

The box office results of this film worldwide show that it is universally disliked. It got pulled from theaters in China after less than two weeks. A Chinese news article was written in which the writer talks about how Chinese viewers felt that the movie insulted their intelligence with how the characters make inexplicably stupid decisions.



In South Korea...The Force Awakens was a good start by raking in 24 million dollars (prior to that the highest grossing SW film in Korea was ROTS which grossed 10 million).....well, this sequel only grossed 1/3 of what The Force Awakens did in Korea (7.9 million..by comparison Avengers: Infinity War made 88.5 million in S. Korea).

In Thailand the movie was also generally hated by audiences. My Thai friend told me all about it and I am in Thailand as I write this review.

So the narrative in the media that the people who hate this film are mostly toxic, racist, misogynistic, white conservatives is just not true. People noticed that Spiderman Homecoming clearly had a left leaning political agenda when Peter Partker's high school is shown to be the most ethnically diverse place seen on film...more than a college brochure, the students all being Indian, Philipino, East Asian, black, Middle Eastern, Hispanic etc. but it didn't bother audiences because the movie was enjoyable. The Last Jedi was not enjoyable.


Did Disney even watch over the production of this film? Did anyone? How the script got green lit is baffling. Not one executive read the script and went "Wait a minute...maaaybe we shouldn't kill off Luke Skywalker like that" or "Wait a minute...maaybe we shouldn't have Luke even think about murdering his own nephew in his sleep"??

What do I like about the movie? Mark Hamill's performance is really good, though maybe because he was truly miserable and pissed off during filming out of anger at Rian Johnson's portrayal of Luke (go watch "50 times Mark Hamill tried to subtly warn us about The Last Jedi on youtube). The film is visually stunning and has great set pieces (which is partly why the plot holes go unnoticed by many people, in my opinion. I think the beautiful visuals hypnotized me on my first watch and it was on my 2nd viewing I realized how awful the movie is)..........I can't think of anything else I liked about the film.

The job of act 2 in a trilogy is to set up hooks for people to anticipate the final act.....this movie did nothing...nothing to set up the 3rd and final movie of this trilogy. It didn't give us new characters to care about except an Asian American stereotypical nerdy girl who looks like she is from our own galaxy...not a galaxy far far away. It didn't develop new plot threads that we are supposed to be excited to see resolved....it actually ends with a finality tone that makes the viewer feel like it's the end of this saga and setting up a future Star Wars Saga 10 or 20 years later with all new characters. The movie hit the reset button....not only did it hit the reset button....but it walked a hundred steps backwards after resetting everything to Empires vs. a tiny rebel group. JJ has a near impossible task ahead of him now.

It's honestly easier for JJ Abrams to wrap up the 9 part "Skywalker Saga" in a nice bow with Episode IX if he pretends The Last Jedi never happened. Let that sink in. It's crazy.

What a colossal disaster.

 

[royox]

I dunno why people are saying Palpatine would have died in the Death Star. If Luke was able to get out why couldnt Palpatine and Vader have?

Palpatine's plan was:
>Use myself as bait to atract the whole Republic fleet
>Send them fake intel about the death star saying its weapons are still not finished and the location of the shield generator
>Have your elite squadron ready on endor for when the Rebels attack the shield generators
>Surround the rebel fleet with our fleet so they can't scape
>Get some popcorn and watch the show on 1st row sitting on my throne

His plan was perfect, he would just have been there sitting on his throne watching the destruction of the rebel fleet by himself and suddently the Death Star would explode before he even noticed something was happening because the ewoks saved the day on endor.

 

[Caffeine]

I think it has some nice cinematic shots, but the story is all over the place and also no where in some regards. I think not having a time gap was the biggest mistake. It just didn't let a lot of stuff from tfa brew. when you have deeper written side characters than your main character and villains something is wrong. there is also a very serious scene and the scene after is them cracking jokes. I get the light hearted stuff it existed in previous star wars films. then you just get to the end of the film and everything is just left in a mess just like snoke's chambers lol.

 

[Nymphae]

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2019/01/industrial-scale-wizardry.html

Director Kyle Newman: You look at The Last Jedi, and honestly, I don't know anybody out here, maybe two people in my life, out of hundreds of people that I've talked to, who liked the movie. All the filmmakers I know that won't talk about it publicly. All the people I know internally, there's all these people that won't, even journalists who gave it positive reviews are like, I do that because I need to maintain my access. Privately, there's a lot of people who really don't like it.

Geeks and Gamers: So you're saying that the ones who gave it good reviews really are phony reviews.

Newman: 100 percent. I can't name them, but yes, 100 percent.

Shocking.