Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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MasterCornholio said:
I understood your point. But you really can't have a discussion on features that we know nothing about. That's just leads to fabrication of false information.
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You intentionally misunderstood my point. SSD controllers are highly custom and we should expect the PS5's and XSX's to be different.

Much of NAND flash's performance is determined by the underlying controller, and companies aren't willing to lift the lid too far on how they do what they do, lest they hand a competitor an advantage

You can read the linked article to figure this out.
 
rntongo said:
The 6 priority levels in the controller are definitely an advantage over competing systems but that's a whole different argument. SSDs have highly custom controllers and the XSX SSD controller should have some features not present in the PS5's.

The biggest difference is going to come from the higher throughput, on the PS5 and not any of these other things. But eliminating bottlenecks between the SSD and game code is more important than say the 6 priority levels. It doesn't matter how fast your SSD is, or how custom the controller is, if it can't load and stream assets faster into RAM.
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We actually know which SSD controller is in the Series X: the Phison E19T. It is a 4 channel Dram-less controller and looks to be fairly standard. I don't expect much secret features from the controller. That being said, I am interested in the so-called velocity architecture and how much it is actually a new feature or how much is just marketing speak.

For an SSD there are three important topics: sequential speed (r/w), random speed (r/w) and latency.

Sequential speed is clear, the PS5 has about double the seq speeds: 9 vs 4.8 GB/s compressed. For sustained writes, the XsX might be slower due to the Dram-less controller (might be important for suspend/resume where the entire RAM is probably written to SSD).

The random speeds are more difficult since neither company has mentioned these yet. However, we know the PS5 uses 12 NAND chips on 12 channels while the XsX uses 16 NAND chips on 4 channels. Also it's likely that only the PS5 supports 6 priority levels making fine-grain controlled random reads possible (edit: actually thinking again about this, I expect the priority levels to more affect latency). Comparing for example a Phison controller with 8 channels to the E19T gives roughly double the random read performance. So I believe the PS5 might have up to a factor 3 better random reads.

Regarding latency and bottlenecks, I think this is the area where Sony has spend more on the hardware side as well. They have the cache scrubbers, DMA controller, two I/O coprocessors and a coherency engine. Additionally, the have SRAM inside the I/O block (different than the DRAM in a SSD controller, SRAM is ten times as fast and usually used for caches). So again for bottlenecks, I think - even if we don't have numbers - the PS5 has the faster solution.
 
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SgtCaffran said:
We actually know which SSD controller is in the Series X: the Phison E19T. It is a 4 channel Dram-less controller and looks to be fairly standard. I don't expect much secret features from the controller. That being said, I am interested in the so-called velocity architecture and how much it is actually a new feature or how much is just marketing speak.

For an SSD there are three important topics: sequential speed (r/w), random speed (r/w) and latency.

Sequential speed is clear, the PS5 has about double the seq speeds: 9 vs 4.8 GB/s compressed. For sustained writes, the XsX might be slower due to the Dram-less controller.

The random speeds are more difficult since neither company has mentioned these yet. However, we know the PS5 uses 12 NAND chips on 12 channels while the XsX uses 16 NAND chips on 4 channels. Also it's likely that only the PS5 supports 6 priority levels making fine-grain controlled random reads possible. Comparing for example a Phison controller with 8 channels to the E19T gives roughly double the random read performance. So I believe the PS5 might have up to a factor 3 or 4 better random reads.

Regarding latency and bottlenecks, I think this is the area where Sony has spend more on the hardware side as well. They have the cache scrubbers, DMA controller, two I/O coprocessors and a coherency engine. Additionally, the have SRAM inside the I/O block (different than the DRAM in a SSD CONTROLLER). So again for bottlenecks, I think - even if we don't have numbers - the PS5 has the faster solution.
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There is so much conflicting information but I think you're right. Coreteks said it was 3 channels on the XSX and that's what I was going with. I guess the leak earlier on this year about the XSX SSD controller was accurate. The PS5 SSD is far superior ofcourse, and until we figure out whether the XVA is marketing speak or not, it's impressive as well. On the other hand, the XSX also has 76MB of SRAM(link here) on the SOC, could be for a DMAC or other accelerators.
 
Ptarmiganx2 said:
It looks great, but there is nothing happening...Let's see how it holds up to HZD2. I'm sure Guerrilla could do the same or better on PS5 with a single character displayed and a desolate environment.
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He just doesn't look like he's really even in that environment, he's running but everything around him is moving almost at walking speed as he goes by, it's like he has a parachute holding him back.
 
JerryinSoCal said:
His tweet is kind of silly, the whole point of the event tomorrow is to show 3rd party XSX games so why would there be anything not optimized for XSX? .
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It's a way for Microsoft to tell the public that superior versions of multi-platform games will be on Series X.
This plus the fact that they don't have much exclusives to show.
 
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Agnostic2020 said:
What if I buy a physical x1 game .I also get a digital xsx copy of it and have my physical x1 game ?
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It'll be a patch, not a digital copy. It might include just code (small) or better assets like 4K textures (then it'll be big). Same way games are patched now. I think we can divide games running on XSX into three categories:
- older games running through BC: possible benefits - higher resolution and framerate, spoof HDR (as shown with that very old Xbox OG game)
- current/cross-gen games enhanced for XSX with developer patches, possibly taking advantage of better CPU/GPU and SSD in some way but not built exclusively with those in mind (everything we're going to see today)
- future Series X only games but we know from Microsoft we won't see those for at least 1-2 years, third-party might introduce those games first

If you want to see true next-gen gameplay, you'll need to wait till Sony shows PS5 only titles, unless again some third-party studio does it first.
 
FeiRR said:
- current/cross-gen games enhanced for XSX with developer patches, possibly taking advantage of better CPU/GPU and SSD in some way but not built exclusively with those in mind (everything we're going to see today)

If you want to see true next-gen gameplay, you'll need to wait till Sony shows PS5 only titles, unless again some third-party studio does it first.
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It's not enhanced for XSX, but built for XSX. Those games were built for the XSX, and then dumbed down for the Xbox One.

Also saying: "If you want to see true next-gen gameplay, you'll need to wait till Sony shows PS5 only titles" basically means that Sony wants you to buy a PS5, and deliberately doesn't release games on PS4 anymore. We'll see if they actually release something that wouldn't have been possible on PS4 or even PC.
 
SgtCaffran said:
We actually know which SSD controller is in the Series X: the Phison E19T. It is a 4 channel Dram-less controller and looks to be fairly standard. I don't expect much secret features from the controller. That being said, I am interested in the so-called velocity architecture and how much it is actually a new feature or how much is just marketing speak.

For an SSD there are three important topics: sequential speed (r/w), random speed (r/w) and latency.

Sequential speed is clear, the PS5 has about double the seq speeds: 9 vs 4.8 GB/s compressed. For sustained writes, the XsX might be slower due to the Dram-less controller (might be important for suspend/resume where the entire RAM is probably written to sdd).

The random speeds are more difficult since neither company has mentioned these yet. However, we know the PS5 uses 12 NAND chips on 12 channels while the XsX uses 16 NAND chips on 4 channels. Also it's likely that only the PS5 supports 6 priority levels making fine-grain controlled random reads possible. Comparing for example a Phison controller with 8 channels to the E19T gives roughly double the random read performance. So I believe the PS5 might have up to a factor 3 or 4 better random reads.

Regarding latency and bottlenecks, I think this is the area where Sony has spend more on the hardware side as well. They have the cache scrubbers, DMA controller, two I/O coprocessors and a coherency engine. Additionally, the have SRAM inside the I/O block (different than the DRAM in a SSD controller, SRAM is ten times as fast and usually used for caches). So again for bottlenecks, I think - even if we don't have numbers - the PS5 has the faster solution.
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Top marks for concise Interpretation and explanation.
 
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X-Fighter said:
It's not enhanced for XSX, but built for XSX. Those games were built for the XSX, and then dumbed down for the Xbox One.
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Those games were built mainly for Playstation consoles. and then maybe Xbox (also Switch and PC in some cases). Xbox has ~20% of the market so it's not the main target of any major multiplatform developer.

X-Fighter said:
Also saying: "If you want to see true next-gen gameplay, you'll need to wait till Sony shows PS5 only titles" basically means that Sony wants you to buy a PS5, and deliberately doesn't release games on PS4 anymore. We'll see if they actually release something that wouldn't have been possible on PS4 or even PC.
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Yes, they said that quite a long time ago: New PlayStation boss Jim Ryan says the company's main goal is to move the community from the current generation to the PlayStation 5 more quickly than it has in the past. That's why I expect PS5-only games to release quite soon. Right now Sony is launching two major exclusives for PS4 and that's probably the last major support for PS4 they're going to have. It's been 7 years, high time for a change.
 
Hope Microsoft have some goodies lined up for today, I don't expect any next-gen only stuff but I want to see how cross-gen games look on Series X. Low-key excited for the show.

Ubisoft can fuck right off though, they are taking the mickey with this slow ass drip-feed of new Assassins' Creed.
 
FeiRR said:
Those games were built mainly for Playstation consoles. and then maybe Xbox (also Switch and PC in some cases). Xbox has ~20% of the market so it's not the main target of any major multiplatform developer.
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Well that's not what Microsoft is saying.


FeiRR said:
Yes, they said that quite a long time ago: New PlayStation boss Jim Ryan says the company's main goal is to move the community from the current generation to the PlayStation 5 more quickly than it has in the past. That's why I expect PS5-only games to release quite soon. Right now Sony is launching two major exclusives for PS4 and that's probably the last major support for PS4 they're going to have. It's been 7 years, high time for a change.
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Yeah, but you are saying like that's a good thing. While they easily could've released it on PS4 too.
 
SgtCaffran said:
The random speeds are more difficult since neither company has mentioned these yet.
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I'm pretty sure that Cerny's "2GB in 0.27 sec" is a random read number. Judging by the patent they have for SSD they made a lot of steps to actually bring random and sequential read speeds to be the same.
Obviously that doesn't mean you can read bytes all over. But if typical 64K page is used (same page size in the XBSX Velocity).
 
I'm happy it's not going to be some patch they add in later on. Xbox One X is such a solid console at 6tflops with just enhanced patches, but XSX is an absolute monster at 12flops with games actually taking full advantage of the new system.

If they've given Red Dead 2 a big upgrade it'll look insane. On X1X it looks gorgeous as it is.

Also I do wonder if they show comparisons between versions running on XB1 and XSX, or will that be mainly Digital Foundry.
 
Delpij said:
It's way for Microsoft to tell the public that superior versions of multi-platform games will be on Series X.
This plus that fact that they don't have much exclusives to show.
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Oh I know but his tweet was talking about tomorrow, all of the games are supposed to be for the XSX so it just seemed silly to point it out. In the future sure that makes sense although you'd hope it'd be obvious if it's the Serie X version of a game lol.
 
Radical_3d said:
This is a good episode. Some here should listen to it.
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I did and there was some points he made that were interesting (and not confirmed of course)

1. The cooling soluition for Ps5 is 10 bucks

2. Sony will only show Ps5 once its mass production as did not want to worry share holdiers for its elaborate design and Sony wanted to prove its capable of mass production before showing. The design is left field.

3. The 12 channel SSD is faster than the averages being stated by Sony...., hence the 22 gbs max. Sony are likely playing down the spec so they can get a third party off the shelf solution. The actual SSD speed is crazy faster than the low numbers in Sony Spec sheet

4. The 12 channels vs 4 is not the whole story, the 6 priorities and latencies has allot to do with the crazy speed.
 
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geordiemp said:
I did and there was some points he made that were interesting (and not confirmed of course)

1. The cooling soluition for Ps5 is 10 bucks

2. Sony will only show Ps5 once its mass production as did not want to worry share holdiers for its elaborate design and Sony wanted to prove its capable of mass production before showing. The design is left field.

3. The 12 channel SSD is faster than the averages being stated by Sony...., hence the 22 gbs max. Sony are likely playing down the spec so they can get a third party off the shelf solution. The actual SSD speed is crazy faster than the low numbers in Sony Spec sheet

4. The 12 channels vs 4 is not the whole story, the 6 priorities and latencies has allot to do with the crazy speed.
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Can you elaborate on the bolded bit chief?
 
I checked the InsideXbox trend on Twitter, fucking Lord give me strength. It's either a mix of PS guys piss taking or the timdog crowd doing what they do best.

And the roles will only get reversed when Sony do their own show, it'll be Xbox guys taking the piss and whoever the timdog equivalent crowd for ps is.

It's all very fucking sad.
 


I'm a bit confused as to what this actually means. "Optimized" as opposed to what? Running through backwards compatibility alone?

Wouldn't that in the end just mean "this game can run on XSX natively"; as in, any game ever released for any console does?
 
Vae_Victis said:


I'm a bit confused as to what this actually means. "Optimized" as opposed to what? Running through backwards compatibility alone?

Wouldn't that in the end just mean "this game can run on XSX natively"; as in, any game ever released for any console does?
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That's how I understood it. Same with PS5.
May be wrong of course.

EDIT: But with possible resolution upscaling and loading times taking advantage of the SSD.
 
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Vae_Victis said:


I'm a bit confused as to what this actually means. "Optimized" as opposed to what? Running through backwards compatibility alone?

Wouldn't that in the end just mean "this game can run on XSX natively"; as in, any game ever released for any console does?
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Probably marketing spin, seeing that tag probably gives some that "Fear of missing out" or won't be as good if you don't own this piece of kit.

At the end of the day, the tag is so vague, even a small bump in resolution could be advertised under the banner.

Companies been playing mind games with the masses for hundreds of years to sell their products.
I can not fault Microsoft for doing it as i imagine most big successful companies pull the same trick.
 
Vae_Victis said:


I'm a bit confused as to what this actually means. "Optimized" as opposed to what? Running through backwards compatibility alone?

Wouldn't that in the end just mean "this game can run on XSX natively"; as in, any game ever released for any console does?
Click to expand...

i mean its pretty simple... the devs have made specific changes to take advantage of the XSX...

where as if they arent optimized then you will just get the games to run on whatever settings they were before (so a 1080p game will stay 1080p, 30fps game will stay 30fps etc)
 
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X-Fighter said:
Well that's not what Microsoft is saying.
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Porting a game to XSX is already "taking advantage" because those games will run better there than on X1X. It's just common logic of information technology that compatible but faster hardware runs software faster. Of course there will be other enhancements, additional visual effects, a bit of RT here and there. Actually Minecraft is a very good example. They didn't even care to replace textures with some better suited for RT. But there's also economic logic which says no external publisher will invest too much into a platform which isn't going to return their investment. Unless Microsoft is paying that said publisher, which of course might be the case for a few titles (maybe AC is one) but I highly doubt they'll do that across the board. They're already bleeding money into XGP. I got Gears Tactics for one euro, it's cool but I know someone's losing a lot of money this way.

X-Fighter said:
Yeah, but you are saying like that's a good thing. While they easily could've released it on PS4 too.
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Yes, I believe in progress. I want to play games which introduce new mechanics, new ways to play them, new quality of interaction with the environment, new NPC systems which are more life-like. I want them to load fast, join friends in MP or coop in seconds rather than minutes. I want my game to be ready when I have that little precious time to entertain myself, instead of wasting most of it on patches and installs. Higher resolution, framerate and texture quality are also nice things but those are my secondary interests. If you prefer to play older games for the next couple of years, Xbox is the probably the best place for it. And also exactly why I have no interest in that hardware.
 
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Dibils2k said:
i mean its pretty simple... the devs have made specific changes to take advantage of the XSX...

where as if they arent optimized then you will just get the games to run on whatever settings they were before (so a 1080p game will stay 1080p, 30fps game will stay 30fps etc)
Click to expand...

But they will be showing NEW games today, I assume? So this is not for just for old games made forward-compatible...

I guess they will be using it as an alternative of putting "Xbox One & Xbox Series X" on the box, they will rather be sold as Xbox One games and will also be "Optimized for Series X". If that's the case, it would be quite peculiar.
 
X-Fighter said:
Well that's not what Microsoft is saying.
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I would say there is a fundamental difference between games build from the ground up for next-gen and games optimised for next-gen.

A game that is optimised might look a lot better (models, textures, resolution, framerate, raytracing, etc) but they still have to run on older consoles with lesser CPU and harddrive. That simply means that true next-gen features such as a game centred around instant transportation or high speed transportation is simply not possible with cross-gen in mind.

Just to be clear: for some games that's okay. But don't expect anything groundbreaking from cross-gen. Wait till we see a superman game with superman speed flight....
psorcerer said:
I'm pretty sure that Cerny's "2GB in 0.27 sec" is a random read number. Judging by the patent they have for SSD they made a lot of steps to actually bring random and sequential read speeds to be the same.
Obviously that doesn't mean you can read bytes all over. But if typical 64K page is used (same page size in the XBSX Velocity).
Click to expand...
I really hope they are able to achieve this but what makes you think the 2GB transfer is random read?
 
Handy Fake said:
Can you elaborate on the bolded bit chief?
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I just listend to the moores law podcast and he said an SSD designer who is an expert he talked to..... was saying the Ps5 design was incredicble and with thsoe specs the 22 gbs max made sense, but the 5 and 8-9 was on the cautious very low side in his opinion and surprised him with 12 channels, 6 priorities and all the custom stuff.

They speculated that Sony actually low balled the spec for devs and game makers to help third party expansion drives maybe could be used in the expansion bay, but the reality was the actual latency and speed is well beyond even the newer SSD drives.

Hence the awkward part where Cerny tried to talk about third party expansion options.

Again its a pod cast with no verification on the insight, juts interesting possible talking points I guess.

TLDR the Ps5 SSD drive is faster than many think.....way faster.
 
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Dibils2k said:
i mean its pretty simple... the devs have made specific changes to take advantage of the XSX...

where as if they arent optimized then you will just get the games to run on whatever settings they were before (so a 1080p game will stay 1080p, 30fps game will stay 30fps etc)
Click to expand...
Yea same as the pro and X right now. Not patch they run the same just a bit better with patch and optimisation they take advatage of the hardware
 
FeiRR said:
Those games were built mainly for Playstation consoles. and then maybe Xbox (also Switch and PC in some cases). Xbox has ~20% of the market so it's not the main target of any major multiplatform developer.


Yes, they said that quite a long time ago: New PlayStation boss Jim Ryan says the company's main goal is to move the community from the current generation to the PlayStation 5 more quickly than it has in the past. That's why I expect PS5-only games to release quite soon. Right now Sony is launching two major exclusives for PS4 and that's probably the last major support for PS4 they're going to have. It's been 7 years, high time for a change.
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i don't see it where does it says that?
 
X-Fighter said:
Well that's not what Microsoft is saying.



Yeah, but you are saying like that's a good thing. While they easily could've released it on PS4 too.
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No, any game built for jaguar CPU will have the normal 5-6 enemies your fighting with predictable movements and scripted AI we have been limited to for the past 7 years. There will be no change today or next month, old gen games just running a bit better or more resolution but same shit.

.That is the same for Ps4, Ps4pro, XBX and Xb1, Jaguar means sparce worlds and few enemies as long as those consoles can play the game, the game scope is handicapped serverly and not next gen IMO.

True next gen games using full Zen 2 16 threads will be 8 x more CPU at least, expect more dense enemy numbers, NPCs, animations,.

I want to see some true battles, we are never getting them with Jaguar for certain.

 
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geordiemp said:
I just listend to the moores law podcast and he said an SSD designer who is an expert he talked to..... was saying the Ps5 design was incredicble and with thsoe specs the 22 gbs max made sense, but the 5 and 8-9 was on the cautious very low side in his opinion and surprised him with 12 channels, 6 priorities and all the custom stuff.

They speculated that Sony actually low balled the spec for devs and game makers to help third party expansion drives maybe could be used in the expansion bay, but the reality was the actual latency and speed is well beyond even the newer SSD drives.

Hence the awkward part where Cerny tried to talk about third party expansion options.

Again its a pod cast with no verification on the insight, juts interesting possible talking points I guess.

TLDR the Ps5 SSD drive is faster than many think.....way faster.
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Cheers fella. So the internal SSD is a beast but for the time being 3rd part expansion SSDs may need to be taken into account for game designing? Is that the general gist?
 
Handy Fake said:
Cheers fella. So the internal SSD is a beast but for the time being 3rd part expansion SSDs may need to be taken into account for game designing? Is that the general gist?
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That was the general gist on the podcast yes.

I dont see why sony does not make its own 12 channel extansion SSD if its the dogs bollocks.
 
SlimySnake said:
hellblade 2 didnt wow you?

it blew me away.
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Don't believe it until you see it released (gameplay), just like AC Valhalla cinematic trailer. It's a great 24fps cinematic trailer for a small game that might come by 2022-2023 when we already start expecting PS5 Pro. According to Booty regarding new 1st party studios, it should be as short and linear as the first one.
 
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SgtCaffran said:
I really hope they are able to achieve this but what makes you think the 2GB transfer is random read?
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It was an example of a typical improvement in load times.
If loads are still sequential they did not change it from HDD at all and it seems strange when the whole talk is on how now you don't need to "sequentialize" your assets and duplicate them.
 
psorcerer said:
It was an example of a typical improvement in load times.
If loads are still sequential they did not change it from HDD at all and it seems strange when the whole talk is on how now you don't need to "sequentialize" your assets and duplicate them.
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Redesigning engines and then game architectures around the new paradigm will take more than a year or so that devs have had so far with next gen devkits. We're talking about improvements which cannot be simulated on PC hardware this time. That's why I expect the cross gen transition period to be very visible too. In five years we'll be laughing how poor those titles we're going to see today will look.
 
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