mansoor1980
Gold Member
phil fights back
Microsoft / Activision Deal Approval Watch |OT| (MS/ABK close)
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adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
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mansoor1980
Gold Member
let's go baybay
time to show EU the goods.
MasterCornholio
Member
let's go baybay
time to show EU the goods.
Depends on what they ask of them.
Topher
Identifies as young
So two different union organizations sent letters to the EC on the exact same day? Phil has been making some phone calls it would seem.
intheinbetween
Member
DMC started on PS1 that’s a fact, but again it is not a first-party title. Konami released several entries of Winning Eleven and International Soccer on SNES and Nintendo 64, it wasn’t born on PS1 or a first-party title, but somehow Sony got exclusivity on the PES franchise for many years, blocking even some versions of the competitors being released in some markets.
GTA was born on PC and it never left, Sony won the exclusity of GTA 3 mostly because MS, who were first offered, rejected it, and it was probably the best decision Sony took back then.
Back to my originial post Sony became the dominant platform because of PS1 and PS2 success mostly because of third-party titles they had exclusively, not because of their first party output back then
MasterCornholio
Member
Doesn't seem like the right people to call in this situation. Don't think the regulators will focus on this type of thing.
Daneel Elijah
Member
According to a recent Form 20-F filed with the SEC, 13% of Sony's employees are members of labor unions
Microsoft has no union until recently . They recognised the first one this month. Honestly if Microsoft want to put labor unions as part of the deal they should doit for themselves first. No need for a merger for that.
Microsoft has no union until recently . They recognised the first one this month. Honestly if Microsoft want to put labor unions as part of the deal they should doit for themselves first. No need for a merger for that.
True. But those companies did it for their benefit too. It was not "shady", but common interest between Sony and the studios concerned.
Daniel_Mallorca1985
Member
X-Wing
Member
What are you talking about? That was for those employee's own good.
jm89
Member
Yeah defintley, I have a feeling they aren't really liking the SO the EC gave them and it's got them nervous.
SneakersSO
Member
You say this, but things like Crash Bandicoot and Twisted Metals on the OG PSX were certifiable console movers.
You're also ignoring that the realities of game publishing back then fundamentally evolved since - you're looking at the prior business deals in a 2023 gaming industry market lense; many of the publishers who were around in the PSX-era were not 'publishers', but merely developers who looked to partner with a platform holder to split the publishing and marketing costs. Nintendo and their contracts is what pushed many JP publishers into this field, and it wasn't until the Playstation emerged that publishers were able to take software they were developing and begin distributing it on their own.
And the reason why they had the ability to get these deals in those eras is because no one else had sold anywhere near as many consoles as Sony had with both the PSX and the PS2, and the reason that those sales happened was because both consoles gave end users a really cheap way to get expanded media functionality into their homes at a fraction of the cost. The PSX was a fantastic means of getting CD media into folks' hands at home, at an age where most CD sound systems were very expensive and prohibitive for consumer adoption.
Heck, it can easily and should be argued that the PS2's killer app wasn't even an exclusive game, but rather the DVD drive it came with and the cheap price tag it allowed: the PS2 was pound for pound the cheapest, most affordable DVD player, and loads of folks owned a PS2 cause it was allowing them to watch DVD movies as well as play games. Theres a reason the PS2 is unmatched in console sales, and this is it. This was exactly what Sony tried to recreate with the PS3 with Blu-Rays, and that did not go as well for its own reasons.
Ignoring the impact both the CD-Drive and the DVD player had on the PSX/PS2 respectively and solely focusing on the exclusive games completely removes what these consoles enabled for consumer media adoption at far lower price points in their respective time periods. If the PSX was still a cartridge system, or the PS2 didn't have DVDs, their console sales would've been far lower than they wound up with, and you probably see Nintendo dominate the PSX generation, as well as have Dreamcast/Xbox/GameCube eat up massive chunks of what we now view as PS2's dominant marketshare.
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Given the recent news of the 10k layoffs while the executives were partying with Sting, he's probably fighting back with a toy gunphil fights back
The signals they're sending are desperation level, even at this late stage they're still thinking they can fool regulators with smoke and mirrors...if they don't change attitude and accept the remedies that regulators want from them this deal is dead...and I wouldn't be surprised if that's what they really want at this stage.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Bth unions have contacted EU independently, not through or via Microsoft.
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jm89
Member
Conveniently just before the hearing tomorrow.... uh huh.
SneakersSO
Member
I'm fairly sure that MS has been talking with Unions behind the scenes to get them to publicly support the deal and they'll enable more unionization at some of these studios.
What these Unions aren't considering is that the amount of union busting that currently goes on within all the studios MS owns should tell them everything they need to know RE: how honest MS is being about this situation. These labor groups know whats up, and luckily for us, it isn't the job of these particular regulators to consider the impact on labor these deals would have; there are other regulatory bodies whose full-time jobs it is to police unions and unionization efforts in each of these markets.
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adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Not the point, MS is not touting the Unions saying what they said today like the poster claims.
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Sure independently
, who knows what they were promised to send the letter right before the final ruling Again if Microsoft thinks they can get results with this stuff....while the reality is in their recent 10k layoffs...
Banjo64
cumsessed
Unions are completely normal and standard in the UK/EU.
Why on God’s green earth should the UK and EU consider the welfare of thousands of American workers at the expense of tens of millions (hundreds, if you count mobile) of their own citizens getting shafted?
Do some of you even think before you post this as some sort of talking point? It’s laughable, and if Microsoft are drumming this up they are even more hard of thinking then they’ve appeared so far.
Why on God’s green earth should the UK and EU consider the welfare of thousands of American workers at the expense of tens of millions (hundreds, if you count mobile) of their own citizens getting shafted?
Do some of you even think before you post this as some sort of talking point? It’s laughable, and if Microsoft are drumming this up they are even more hard of thinking then they’ve appeared so far.
Pelta88
Member
Note the dates
Xbox Boss Says He Will Recognize Raven Software's Union After Acquisition Closes
Phil Spencer says that Microsoft will recognize the first AAA video game union once the acquisition is complete
kotaku.com
Video Game Workers at Microsoft and Activision Take Steps to Unionize
Microsoft has remained neutral during a labor organizing bid as the Xbox maker seeks regulatory approval for its Activision acquisition.
Microsoft recognizes its first union as ZeniMax software testers organize
Testers at multiple U.S. ZeniMax video game studios voted in favor of joining a union. Microsoft's support lines up with a previous commitment.
www.cnbc.com
Microsoft Acquired Bethesda in 2021. Unionization wasn't a factor for Microsoft until they needed positive PR to present to regulators. Unless of course you think the vote to form a union took two years? It did not sway regulators because it was an obviously, and overtly, hollow manoeuvre.
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Topher
Identifies as young
So both unions contacted the EU at the same time coincidentally? Come on. This was coordinated. Nothing wrong with that, but let's not pretend there isn't a strong possibility that this was done at Microsoft's request. Much more likely than pure chance.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I don't see the problem. Whether it's specifically for this acquisition or for whatever other altruistic reasons, they're more friendly towards unions now, which is a net-win.
Secondly, I was only pointing out in your post you said MS is touting this, no MS rep has made any comment on this one way or another.
I don't doubt both Sony and MS are doing behind the scenes work to curry favor in their respective cases.
DrFigs
Member
I don't think he's been a very good leader during his tenure. But I don't see why this deal in particular should be what does him in. He has no control over what the regulators will do, and Nadella is apparently on board with his vision for Xbox.
Topher
Identifies as young
He isn't leaving so no.
intheinbetween
Member
And again, nothing of those points lead to Sony’s first party output, which is what I’m claiming.
Best selling games on PS1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PlayStation_video_games
GT is the only game in there
Best selling games on PS2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PlayStation_video_games
GT and God of War were among the best selling games, but once again take a look at the massive sales of iconic franchises from third-parties
Pelta88
Member
I'm all for workers being in the best situation possible. Given what happened under Kotick's watch I'm hoping that ATVI get new leadership regardless of what happens. But that aside, and in the context of this acquisition thread, unionization is a ploy. Again, Microsoft has been in the game space for 26 years but it wasn't until this deal got resistance that unionisation became a thing for Microsoft. The market, not just regulators, see it as a "Hollow gesture."
Microsoft didn't even have the foresight to announce unions before they announced the deal and began celebrating like they already owned Activision.
Phil was celebrating this as a win he brought into fruition, before he talked about any Union.
https://www.videogameschronicle.com...n-deal-is-well-beyond-anything-ive-ever-done/
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SneakersSO
Member
Like I said, you're ignoring the situation that led to those games being exclusive in the first place.
The CD-Rom lowered the overall cost of game publishing because producing cartridges was infinitely more expensive than it was to produce CDs, and that is even before we mention that in order to print cartridges, you had to purchase them from Nintendo to begin with. The PSX completely upended that business reality and created a new lane for developers to reach a console audience with lower prices (PSX games were on average $20-$30 cheaper than N64 games) and with publishing deals that ensured and ultimately defined just what are the 'publishing rights' of a game.
3rd parties selling more than 1st parties are a tale as old as time. The PS3 is what led to Sony actually needing a 1st party slate and production workflow that could yield results and define the value proposition of the platform itself, and this really only happened after Sony's gambit with Blu-Ray adoption in the early PS3 days not really panning out. You're claiming that Sony's 3rd party support is what enshrined it in those generations, and while you're not necessarily wrong on that, you're also lacking a heck of a lot of context that informs why those 3rd releases even got made, and how they lowered the cost of production and publishing for devs.
Take your first link you listed, for example - note that Final Fantasy 7 gives Sony the Publisher credit for the WorldWide Release of Final Fantasy 7. Sure, it was a 3rd party game, but again, the economic realities of the market at that time is what allowed a developer like then Squaresoft to not be able to publish their own titles, cause they were under the grip of the cartridge based console industry, and couldn't amass the funds needed to be their own publishing entity. In fact, looking at the top 10 for PSX, there were 3 out of 10 of those titles where Sony wasn't involved in the publishing or the development of them: FF8, Tomb Raider, and the first Harry Potter game by EA. Every single other game has Sony acting as either the publisher, involved with its development, or are the developers themselves.
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Pelta88
Member
Yes.
But not immediately. Think 343 and the Halo Infinite catastrophe. They'll find the right time and place to let him go.
Action Jackson
Member
GTA3, when the series exploded in popularity, was a 6 month exclusive on Playstation.
Iced Arcade
Member
I can't stand his constant lip flapping, his non answer answers and hypocrite statements BUT dude actually did a lot.
Rival fans absolutely hate and loathhh him so you will see a lot of Phil hate and downplay.
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Daneel Elijah
Member
intheinbetween
Member
I think you’re still missing the point of my posts in which I was replying to other fellow gaffer that Sony is not the dominant platform because of their first party output, but because of their success back in the PS1 and PS2 era. And I agree with you to some extent, as you said not only because of exclusivities (no matter they were paid or not), but other factors took place, such as betting on an entry-level DVD player in PS2 or building relationships with new studios, but that’s not a first-party output.
Topher
Identifies as young
If it wasn't for Phil Spencer there would be no Xbox right now. I fully believe that.
phil_t98
#SonyToo
Given the recent news of the 10k layoffs while the executives were partying with Sting, he's probably fighting back with a toy gun
The signals they're sending are desperation level, even at this late stage they're still thinking they can fool regulators with smoke and mirrors...if they don't change attitude and accept the remedies that regulators want from them this deal is dead...and I wouldn't be surprised if that's what they really want at this stage.
was it 10k layoffs from the gaming department?
freefornow
Gold Member
I'm fairly sure that my pork sword is 12 inches.
Doesnt mean that it is.
But, I'm fairly sure.
Interfectum
Member
SneakersSO
Member
First party output was inherently different then than what it is now. You can say that things like Crash/Spyro/Twisted Metal/GT/Syphon Filter weren't excellent pieces of 1st party output when compared to say, Super Mario 64/LoZ:OoT/Goldeneye, but no one else's 1st party was that above and beyond Sony's then. Its not like Sony's 1st party output was anemic and that Nintendo/MS/Sega's first party output was running laps around Sony, cause that just isn't the case, person preferences not withstanding, of course.
Relative to what the other 1st party studios were producing, I think Sony's output was at least comparable, and thats before we get into all the 3rd party exclusives Sony secured thanks to the platform decisions they had made.
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intheinbetween
Member
GTA 3 was released first on PS2 back in October 2001, May 2002 on PC and October 2003 on XBOX, two years later
Not all 10k but yes gaming was affected:
https://kotaku.com/phil-spencer-xbox-layoffs-microsoft-zenimax-1850013315
Phil sent an email internally stating the decision hurts and bla bla bla
phil_t98
#SonyToo
Certainly more than they would like to look like a company that defends workers' interests in the eyes of regulators.
intheinbetween
Member
I might sound like a broken record, repeating the same over and over on this topic, but once again take a look at those sales charts, few Sony first-party titles besides GT or God of War can be found while you get the usual FF, GTA, Madden, Resident Evil, Tomb Raider, Tekken, MGS selling tons, and those were not first-party titles.
phil_t98
#SonyToo
so for all we know they could of laid off 50 people in gaming but 10,000 gets touted as if its from the whole gaming division?
Action Jackson
Member
So a little more than the 6 months I remember before it came to PC. Still don‘t get where you got this idea that MS could have secured it as an exclusive. That’s the first time I have ever heard of this. Sounds more like you are trying to artificially support your argument, when an Xbox version was probably never considered as a release platform but as a late port.
Andrenicks
Neo Member
Just to agree with the quoted message, I convinced my father to buy me the ps2 because it was cheaper than a stand-alone DVD player and my father had been wanting to get a DVD player for months. Brilliant move on Sony's part.
For all we know it could be the opposite of your scenario as well.
Regulators might ask them a precise figure, ask them if it was really necessary for a company with 70 billions spend to fire them instead of relocating them on other projects and draw their own conclusions about how pro workers they are.
Also the company doing the deal is called Microsoft not Xbox.
SneakersSO
Member
Right, but thats still on pure volume of releases. Like I pointed out, on PSX alone, Sony is either a publisher or developer/publisher on 7 out of the top 10 selling games on PSX. Were there far more games released on PSX than just Sony's output? Absolutely. But there has never been a period where a 1st party was producing as much more titles on their platform as all the other 3rd parties.
This sales chart you're pointing out isn't different from the other platform holder's either in terms of split or make up of the top 10 most selling games on any particular console. Your claim is that the reason the PS4/5 are so dominant now have to do with the deals Sony secured back then, and my position is that, while that is partially true, it is lacking the context as to both why those titles even got published on the PSX, and what led Sony to having such a dominant marketshare lead that they were able to pull some of the PS2 deals off to begin with.
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