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Monitoring the situation in Iran

The notion that a different course would have led to a better outcome in this case is purely speculative, and seems based on no more than a desire to say whatever course President Trump chose was wrong and whatever course he didn't choose would have been better.

I see no logical reason to assume that either removing any suggestion of consequences, or the conducting of military strikes, would have delivered a better outcome here. Either course could just as easily have resulted in a worse outcome.

It may well be that there is no course of action which results in a good outcome here. I consider this the most likely state of affairs. Successfully toppling the regime with air and missile strikes (assuming for sake of argument it's even possible) is not going to be celebrated for long if it plunges the country into a civil war which kills hundreds of thousands of people.

My expectation right now is that we will see a variant of the approach used in Venezuela. Not an attempt to remove the regime wholesale, but carrier/s sat there like the Sword of Damocles to encourage the regime to behave, with a kinetic change of leadership on the table if it does not behave. The complicating factor in this case is we are talking about Islamists, not rational people.

Of course it's all speculative, but we're not intelligence analysts. Just folks talking on a forum, so we're naturally going to do so. We can trade arguments all day long, as many have done earlier in the discussion, which is to be expected. If press coverage is to be believed, there's been a variety of opinions exchanged about this topic, even within the Trump administration itself, and so a defense of U.S. intervention isn't wildly out of place either.

On a moral level, which obviously isn't the only layer of analysis involved here, I think Trump doing something to help the protesters is a good thing. It might fail or succeed, depending on many factors, but I'd give him that. On a practical level, things are indeed more complicated, but it's worth emphasizing that there is such a concept as analysis paralysis. Fear of civil war (or fear of nuclear war) shouldn't be the only aspect under consideration. It shouldn't be ignored, but it shouldn't be overwhelming. Risks of civil war can be addressed with further actions, military or not, depending on how much time and effort you're willing to invest (or, for that matter, how much you can get other allies to do so, both regionally and not). I don't think it's a matter of either invading Iran and triggering a civil war or doing nothing, when there are plenty of alternatives between both of those options.

Choosing to not do something is also a decision and it brings consequences as well. Perhaps there is no good choice here, as you've said, but leaders will inevitably be judged for both action and inaction. This has often been true within domestic politics and also internationally as well.

As for your expectations...that would make sense, in theory, and I do note your point about the religious fanaticism of those involved. I also think that trying to quietly seize the leadership would be harder in Iran than in Venezuela, plus they would already be expecting that sort of approach as the absolute minimum, so a different plan would be needed.
 
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Lol the US just went in and bombed them without any real response, wiped out their nuke program but suddenly now they're acting like they can respond. All talk.

Look up Operation Praying Mantis for reference. Middle East commanders are notoriously overconfident and delusional about their capabilities. Iraq Republican Guard was feared by the entire middle east and got annihilated in hours. They will scatter like coachroaches into bunkers within the first wave unable to communicate with allies.
They have a shit ton of ballistic missiles that are very sophisticated. The war for Israel wasn't a win.
 
They have a shit ton of ballistic missiles that are very sophisticated. The war for Israel wasn't a win.


According to who?

That wasn't a war where Israel committed to destruction of their entire military.

A real war would mean the entire Iran military would be smoldering ash, and I'm not talking US help either. Just Israel. Iran is absolutely shit. The best thing they have are missiles and 95% were shot down lmao.

You can be assured a massive % of those were already destroyed in the last attack or used up. So the absolute best thing they had is severely diminished.
 
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According to who?

That wasn't a war where Israel committed to destruction of their entire military.

A real war would mean the entire Iran military would be smoldering ash, and I'm not talking US help either. Just Israel. Iran is absolutely shit. The best thing they have are missiles and 95% were shot down lmao.

You can be assured a massive % of those were already destroyed in the last attack or used up. So the absolute best thing they had is severely diminished.
Still not 100%, and there was not a win coming out of that war. They can still have nukes, they are still producing missiles. I'd say that war ended in failure.
 
Still not 100%, and there was not a win coming out of that war. They can still have nukes, they are still producing missiles. I'd say that war ended in failure.

It was a surgical attack, no matter who calls it a war.

And to be honest, getting through only 5% of your missiles when you sent them in massive volleys is fucking embarrassing. And that's your best asset. Lmao
 
He very well may be, and what better argument is there for more involvement in NATO by its other member countries?

This is the paradox of Trump. He's just as likely to scare the west into defending itself properly as he is to start a global war.

More involvement? NATO sent a small recon team to Greenland this week and Trump said they were playing a dangerous game and tariffed them.

That's some real art of the deal shit right there.
 
More involvement? NATO sent a small recon team to Greenland this week and Trump said they were playing a dangerous game and tariffed them.

That's some real art of the deal shit right there.
And Germany withdrew their 15 people right away after.

Such virtue, many strength, much signals !!

They're all being clowns.
 
Lol the US just went in and bombed them without any real response, wiped out their nuke program but suddenly now they're acting like they can respond. All talk.

Look up Operation Praying Mantis for reference. Middle East commanders are notoriously overconfident and delusional about their capabilities. Iraq Republican Guard was feared by the entire middle east and got annihilated in hours. They will scatter like coachroaches into bunkers within the first wave unable to communicate with allies.
To be fair, their acting is mostly for the home consumption. "We are winning against the foreign foe", while the house is on fire. "Everybody is afraid of us" etc. They don't expect people outside to believe them.
 
Thread is for Iran, guys.

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Lets fill this under the "bold strategy cotton" tag for the form.

What the mentality behind this, do they believe it will scare them off? Is it just a automatic response? Do they believe that nothing is going to happen and it will show some sort of strength? Or just a total disconnect from reality?

If something happens America isn't going Iraq 3.0, they are going to wage an air/cruise missile campaign against Iran while sitting behind a missile defence system (with precautions taken as to avoid what has happen to Russia in Ukraine) doing an all out attack on the IRGC with the hope people will raise up and topple the current leaders.

If that fails they will defend against the missile like last year and the ships will just sail away.
 
Lets fill this under the "bold strategy cotton" tag for the form.

What the mentality behind this, do they believe it will scare them off? Is it just a automatic response? Do they believe that nothing is going to happen and it will show some sort of strength? Or just a total disconnect from reality?

If something happens America isn't going Iraq 3.0, they are going to wage an air/cruise missile campaign against Iran while sitting behind a missile defence system (with precautions taken as to avoid what has happen to Russia in Ukraine) doing an all out attack on the IRGC with the hope people will raise up and topple the current leaders.

If that fails they will defend against the missile like last year and the ships will just sail away.
This isn't a threat to the US, it's internal signaling to the citizens of Iran. It's so the regime can have further evidence to support their claim that they are protecting "true Iranians" against western interference.
 
The threat (against the civilian population) has to be taken seriously, if the aim is to keep civilian deaths to a minimum. If the aim is to try and collapse the regime regardless of the consequences, then the threat is meaningless.
 
Lets fill this under the "bold strategy cotton" tag for the form.

What the mentality behind this, do they believe it will scare them off? Is it just a automatic response? Do they believe that nothing is going to happen and it will show some sort of strength? Or just a total disconnect from reality?

If something happens America isn't going Iraq 3.0, they are going to wage an air/cruise missile campaign against Iran while sitting behind a missile defence system (with precautions taken as to avoid what has happen to Russia in Ukraine) doing an all out attack on the IRGC with the hope people will raise up and topple the current leaders.

If that fails they will defend against the missile like last year and the ships will just sail away.
Iran has more ballistic and cruise missile stockpiles than the US, Israel, and other nations have anti-air munitions in that theater at the moment, even with the incoming carrier group inbound. Israel burned through a chunk of it during last year's performative retaliation from Iran, and they have not fully replenished what was used. It's a huge part of why Israel pushed back against the administration attacking Iran the other day. It's not that they don't want to hit Iran, they know that blindly attacking without considering second and third order effects is a recipe for catastrophe. While we can just sail our ships away, all of our bases are still present, and they don't have infinite Patriot missiles. And all the countries neighboring Iran have to deal with the consequences.

In a sustained campaign, missile defense will have to inevitably focus on defending critical assets, instead of trying to take out anything and everything inbound. Attacking Iran in the context of destroying nuclear facilities is very different than attacking Iran in the context of all-out regime change. The latter is existential from the perspective of the regime, and their response will likely be proportional to that perception. Civilian casualties would be significant in a drawn-out campaign. Iran knows they'd lose in the long run, but the civilian cost to everyone in the region is why no one has taken action, akin to how North Korea continues to hold Seoul in perpetual crosshairs.

In the end, I think we will see a performative attack on Iran coordinated through backchannels to save face for the Trump administration because not firing anything after threatening to do so looks weak, especially after moving a carrier group to the area as Trump is image-driven so he will not suffer the perception of appearing weak on the world stage. Afterwards, there will be a bunch of social media posts declaring some kind of victory. Iran will do a similarly performative retaliation that they will also coordinate, and the status quo is maintained rather than an all-out war. This whole scenario sucks shit for all the Iranian protesters who gave their lives in the hopes of freedom for themselves and generations that would come after, but it's what I believe will happen.
 
The threat (against the civilian population) has to be taken seriously, if the aim is to keep civilian deaths to a minimum. If the aim is to try and collapse the regime regardless of the consequences, then the threat is meaningless.
I think the ideal scenario is the elites doing "Maduro" and let ayatollah go (in some shape or form), while also somehow forcing IRGC to disarm. I doubt it is possible at all. Curious what the final resolution is going to be there.

If Iran truly collapses, it is going to be a huge mess to a point where the civilian deaths will be immesurable. Granted unlike Iraq or Syria, Iran has much longer history of being a proper state.
 
This isn't a threat to the US, it's internal signaling to the citizens of Iran. It's so the regime can have further evidence to support their claim that they are protecting "true Iranians" against western interference.
I think there's also an element of threat to Trump. Not that Iran could militarily defeat the US, but they're saying if there's any attack on Iran we'll turn it into a war which they know Trump wants to avoid getting involved in.
 
So did the protesters took over the military bases, institutions and others? Because if you stop - you lose. But the protesters gave up instead of pushing further. The protesters should have continued to fight, use guerilla tactics etc. People think that when you enter the capital, all the units switch sides. It is not CIV.
Petrol bombs are shit against tanks and machine guns...
 
Speaking of China



I think I mentioned earlier in this thread, that I wouldn't be surprised that China and Russia would be doing everything they can to reinforce Iran, likely via AA and radar defence systems.

I had hope that US and allies would strike early and hard instead of waiting for all the players to get ready.
 
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Speaking of China


Dropping things off, or shipping stuff out? Or both?

My guess? Lots of drone parts. There isn't much in the way of defense against them in that theater right now. Ukraine has demonstrated their effectiveness against the Black Sea fleet. Can probably do something similar against the US Navy.
 
Dropping things off, or shipping stuff out? Or both?

My guess? Lots of drone parts. There isn't much in the way of defense against them in that theater right now. Ukraine has demonstrated their effectiveness against the Black Sea fleet. Can probably do something similar against the US Navy.


Very, very different situations between those fleets.
 
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Care to explain?

Yeah, US Navy fleets can project from extreme distances with carrier groups. Destroyers too. They're far more capable than anything in the Russian fleet. I mean, extremely. They stay mobile and they have layers of sensor arrays. So, drones have to travel 3x further, guess where the US fleet is, and try to somehow get through all their sensors and US drones.

Not only that, within 48 hours the US will have complete air dominance over Iran, then they can strike any area that has drones. Whereas the Russians, 4 years later, still can't claim total air dominance to destroy Ukraine drone facilities. It's an insane advantage for the US. Basically whatever it takes the Russians in years, the US can do in days.

And btw, I'm likely downplaying the US speed here. It'll probably happen much faster. Middle East and Russian propaganda overestimate their capability to an incredible degree. It works to the US advantage too.

The degree of planning going into this possible war right now would blow minds on the US side. I've been in those rooms and the backup plans and fake maneuvers are crazy complex. They essentially plan for an enemy that isn't anywhere near as capable as they actually are. Go look at the war against the Republican Guard in the first gulf war. No army of that size has been crushed that fast.
 
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well, well, well.

Can a "kinetic action" hurt Russia in Ukraine and delay China's intention to take Taiwan if they enter a war against the US in Iran?
Or, does a war in Iran impede the US's ability to defend Taiwan? Is the hesitancy to use force a result of not wanting Iran to be a proxy US/China fight?
 
Dropping things off, or shipping stuff out? Or both?

My guess? Lots of drone parts. There isn't much in the way of defense against them in that theater right now. Ukraine has demonstrated their effectiveness against the Black Sea fleet. Can probably do something similar against the US Navy.
And if any country can make drones as fast and as cheaply is possible, it's China.
 
Or, does a war in Iran impede the US's ability to defend Taiwan? Is the hesitancy to use force a result of not wanting Iran to be a proxy US/China fight?
I don't think the timing is right to invade Taiwan right now. China can't make a Putin in Taiwan.

I think the US is not trying to be in an actual war but more like doing strategic attacks.
 
I don't think the timing is right to invade Taiwan right now. China can't make a Putin in Taiwan.

I think the US is not trying to be in an actual war but more like doing strategic attacks.
I hope you are right, but China's window to control Taiwan could be closing. Their explosive growth phase is by and large over, as well as their population growth, to the point where experts argue over the veracity of China's population numbers.

They have as many young, fighting men as they are likely to ever have, so theoretically it would be in thier favor to take what they can now, as they may not get another chance.
 
I hope you are right, but China's window to control Taiwan could be closing. Their explosive growth phase is by and large over, as well as their population growth, to the point where experts argue over the veracity of China's population numbers.

They have as many young, fighting men as they are likely to ever have, so theoretically it would be in thier favor to take what they can now, as they may not get another chance.
I don't think a war between China and Taiwan would be with men and numbers, it would be with drones and missiles. There are only two army today with the know-how in fighting in urban warfare. Even Russia has no idea what they are doing.
 
I hope you are right, but China's window to control Taiwan could be closing. Their explosive growth phase is by and large over, as well as their population growth, to the point where experts argue over the veracity of China's population numbers.

They have as many young, fighting men as they are likely to ever have, so theoretically it would be in thier favor to take what they can now, as they may not get another chance.

Also the other thing with the PLA is they're more sensitive to combat losses than we are. 80% of their combat troops are from 1 child families. They lose that child in war, the family bloodline ends there.
 
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