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[kevboard]

Catch me in the bathroom at 3:00 a.m. with all the lights off, I'm sitting down bro. My lazy ass isn't aiming blind.

WEAK!

 

[ReasonBeing]

MS would love to have Xbox itself being nothing more than an app or Windows Icon that you click on. Pure emulation layer as a part of Windows would be so much easier than what they ACTUALLY did, which was shrinking the entire Xbox hardware into a chip. Sony did the same with PS1 PC on PS2 and 1st generation PS2 BC on the PS3.

As for the Wii shop, that is a console inside a console. That is not a PC license so no contract is broken. You can try to pretend i am lying but that is just you dismissing what I am saying, that is on you. i can tell you the facts, you can ignore it if that makes you happy.

You shouldn't assume that the reason Nintendo didn't run into licensing issues was because it was "Console to console". If that were the case, Xbox would have been able to offer the entirety of the 360 library on the Xbox One and Series platforms. Edit: after rereading your post, I see I may have missed some context. I'll just say that the I don't think we should assume that there is a fundamental difference between "a console within a console" and a "console within a PC". A console is a fixed function computer, and our colloquial definitions and distinctions aren't going to be relevant.

I think it is reasonable to suggest that Microsoft would prefer a situation like the one you suggested, but they have to figure out a solution within the realities of their licensing agreements. Those realities are going to shape their methods.

 

[Pimpbaa]

Why is there "steam killer" in the thumbnail? This thing will be able to launch and use steam. Hell if I bought this thing, i'd be just using MS' store for gamepass (if it still exists and not priced even higher) but I'd be buying shit on steam. Unless there are some Helix specific optimizations for games on the ms store.

 

[kevboard]

Why is there "steam killer" in the thumbnail? This thing will be able to launch and use steam. Hell if I bought this thing, i'd be just using MS' store for gamepass (if it still exists and not priced even higher) but I'd be buying shit on steam. Unless there are some Helix specific optimizations for games on the ms store.

Helix specific versions seem to absolutely be a thing.
their presentation makes it sound like a Helix game is easy to then port to PC without much work, but it's not exactly the same code, just VERY close to the same.

so probably for many games it will be the best choice to run the Helix version of a game. and if it's play anywhere you'll always just have the option to install the PC version I guess lol.

Steam compatibility is however also great if there are sales and stuff of course. so maybe you can get a game dirt cheap on Steam, and even tho it will perform slightly worse than the Helix version, it's still worth it due to the price

 

[KenaiPhoenix]

Ca we just accept that "Series X" (or whatever stupid name they picked) was just the last xbox?

It will be only on brand and in the next "gen" will be "Windows Gaming Station (powered by copilot)"

 

[EverydayBeast]

Hybrid really helped Nintendo, it's the best we've seen.

 

[Beechos]

So between pc library and xbox library has there been any talk about storage and file structure?
Will the storage have 2 partitions?
If it does have 2 partitions will 1tb of storage be partitioned 50/50 or will user be able to assign?
Can we use the same drive for both pc and xbox?

 

[ReasonBeing]

So between pc library and xbox library has there been any talk about storage and file structure?
Will the storage have 2 partitions?
If it does have 2 partitions will 1tb of storage be partitioned 50/50 or will user be able to assign?
Can we use the same drive for both pc and xbox?

I would bet separate partitions, but I'm working with the same amount as info as everyone else. I mentioned my prediction earlier in the thread, that it will work similar to Wii mode on a Wii U. I think you will have to boot in and out of "Xbox" mode to play your console library.

Edit: I also wouldn't be surprised if it came to be that while you can play your Steam/Epic/GOG games on the device, you won't be able to purchase them through it's main interface.

 

[bitbydeath]

So between pc library and xbox library has there been any talk about storage and file structure?
Will the storage have 2 partitions?
If it does have 2 partitions will 1tb of storage be partitioned 50/50 or will user be able to assign?
Can we use the same drive for both pc and xbox?

No split needed, games will be running through an emulator and likely wrapped in a VM.

Microsoft job posting signals efforts to emulate games on a new Xbox console and unify platforms

Even if a new Xbox console uses Windows, some older titles could require emulation to boot. Microsoft is searching for a software engineer to aid its game preservation efforts. Current PCs and other platforms may also benefit from the ability to play classic Xbox games.

www.notebookcheck.net

 

[HeWhoWalks]

Hybrid really helped Nintendo, it's the best we've seen.

Because there's a huge market for a handheld (and a bonus that it can be docked as a console). Nintendo also has the highest selling exclusive properties. Xbox is not in that situation and a PC/console hybrid will do little to move the needle. That's why it won't be priced as such.

 

[Topher]

Not entirely true, it's got all of GAF talking about it looking forward to more info on the edge of their feet.

Aaron Greenberg is salivating somewhere.

mission accomplished?

 

[DenchDeckard]

The motivations could be "warrior" in nature on either side, but that's not really relevant unless someone is just using it along with typical warrior rhetoric. Originally this was questioned and debated due to the mere fact that it never made sense for a console to include other stores. As I've said, I'm more in the "hybrid" camp now and talking about it and exchanging thoughts is what has brought me there so I really don't see the problem in the discussion myself.

You say, questioned and debated but I only have ever really seen one side make the statement "it's a pc" over and over again. I have seen conversation in the last week around what is it? But in general it's always "it's a pc" and I see that a lot more than " it's a console"

 

[Bernardougf]

[

Helix specific versions seem to absolutely be a thing.
their presentation makes it sound like a Helix game is easy to then port to PC without much work, but it's not exactly the same code, just VERY close to the same.

so probably for many games it will be the best choice to run the Helix version of a game. and if it's play anywhere you'll always just have the option to install the PC version I guess lol.

Steam compatibility is however also great if there are sales and stuff of course. so maybe you can get a game dirt cheap on Steam, and even tho it will perform slightly worse than the Helix version, it's still worth it due to the price

No matter how easier is to develop for a platform you still have to put manhours at it and this costs money ... why any dev would be inclined to do so if they just can make their regular pc code and launch in the exact same PConsole (thanks vaibhavpisal love the name) is beyond me... specially considering is going to probably be a very niche product.

MS games and direct partners (if they exist) will probably have some sticker of "optimized for" but all the other third partys ? Why ? Only if this brings then any monetary advantage given by MS which I really dont see it happening for again a "niche" device.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Wonder what this machine will do to the world of FPS games

I always buy my shooters on console and turn off crossplay with PC to try to avoid PC cheats

 

[apple_of_enlightenment]

A train wreck in slow motion.

Sony&Nintendo have reduced them to rubble but they keep throwing money at it. This is just a continuation of the Asus Xbox strategy.

 

[Darius87]

There is barely anything custom about PS4 and PS5 APUs, yet - they are considered proper consoles.

Having "off the shelves" stuff doesn't change anything when it comes to console/pc differentiation (PS3 had 7800 GTX with 1/2 memory bus and rops).

let's just ignore decompression, DMA, tempest, cache scrubbers, coprocessors, coherency it's all inside ps5 apu and yet it's barely anything.

 

[Topher]

You say, questioned and debated but I only have ever really seen one side make the statement "it's a pc" over and over again. I have seen conversation in the last week around what is it? But in general it's always "it's a pc" and I see that a lot more than " it's a console"

Generally yes, because most people believe that's what it is. And not just console warriors. Everything about this screams "PC". But there have been plenty who have pointed out Microsoft's use of the word "console" over and over again in defense so it isn't entirely one-sided. I mean......just look at the thread title.

 

[Bojji]

let's just ignore decompression, DMA, tempest, cache scrubbers, coprocessors, coherency it's all inside ps5 apu and yet it's barely anything.

Isn't most of this stuff just somewhere on the motherboard, not APU (outside of cache scrubbers obviously)? PS5 is pretty much standard GPU and standard CPU (with many cutbacks), you are talking about SSD and Audio stuff mostly.

 

[Darius87]

Isn't most of this stuff just somewhere on the motherboard, not APU (outside of cache scrubbers obviously)?

no all is inside ps5 apu.

PS5 is pretty much standard GPU and standard CPU (with many cutbacks), you are talking about SSD and Audio stuff mostly.

you won't get any these ASICs in your standard gpu, cpu or apu, SSD is only DMA others like audio, coprocessors eleviates cpu performance, cache scrubbers, coherency is for bandwidth. this is far from standard.

 

[Bojji]

no all is inside ps5 apu.

you won't get any these ASICs in your standard gpu, cpu or apu, SSD is only DMA others like audio, coprocessors eleviates cpu performance, cache scrubbers, coherency is for bandwidth. this is far from standard.

And end results are mostly on par with equivalent PC hardware and Xbox that don't have most of it? Those things do help but are small stuff compared to raw CPU/GPU power. This remind me of that "secret sauce" talk from Xbox one launch...

 

[Darius87]

And end results are mostly on par with equivalent PC hardware and Xbox that don't have most of it? Those things do help but are small stuff compared to raw CPU/GPU power. This remind me of that "secret sauce" talk from Xbox one launch...

you said: 'There is barely anything custom about PS4 and PS5 APUs'
i proved you wrong, we could debate about performance in orher thread.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Not entirely true, it's got all of GAF talking about it looking forward to more info on the edge of their feet.

Aaron Greenberg is salivating somewhere.

We're gonna be getting insufferable Adam again, aren't we?

 

[Bojji]

you said: 'There is barely anything custom about PS4 and PS5 APUs'
i proved you wrong, we could debate about performance in orher thread.

I was talking about GPU and CPU and you know that. You added bunch of other stuff.

PS4 uses cut down 7870 with expanded GPGPU functionality + laptop Jaguar cores. How this is exotic or custom hardware?

 

[Steve Holt]

With the Xbox CoPilot's ability to play Steam games it's going to have to be a PC. But with I guess a user friendly dashboard/interface to make it console like experience.

Will the Xbox part of the device be a emulator? So many questions.

 

[Darius87]

I was talking about GPU and CPU and you know that. You added bunch of other stuff.

GPU+CPU=APU everything i mention is inside APU it helps for both(GPU, CPU) performance i don't see anything wrong if it's not directly inside GPU(scrubbers are) or CPU, it's monolithic APU it doesn't matter where it is placed if it's inside APU.

PS4 uses cut down 7870 with expanded GPGPU functionality + laptop Jaguar cores. How this is exotic or custom hardware?

it's not exotic but it's custom for sure you won't get 7870 with cpu inside and it doesn't have to be that, modern consoles are always custom because that's how they made by sony/ms add things what's needed and remove what's don't that's called customization this argument 'consoles are PC' is pure bs, mainly speaked by people who don't know shit.

 

[Katatonic]

MLiD spreading CCC for Xbox. Why am I not surprised.

 

[Bojji]

GPU+CPU=APU everything i mention is inside APU it helps for both(GPU, CPU) performance i don't see anything wrong if it's not directly inside GPU(scrubbers are) or CPU, it's monolithic APU it doesn't matter where it is placed if it's inside APU.

it's not exotic but it's custom for sure you won't get 7870 with cpu inside and it doesn't have to be that, modern consoles are always custom because that's how they made by sony/ms add things what's needed and remove what's don't that's called customization this argument 'consoles are PC' is pure bs, mainly speaked by people who don't know shit.

Since consoles went x86 they are mostly bog standard PC parts, with few tweaks here and there.

That's what I said in my original post, using off the shelf GPU and CPU does not define console vs. some obscure Toshiba CPU (in PS2) that developers struggled to use.

What defines console is closed system with games designed specifically for it. At the same time you can use x86 PS5 hardware as Linux PC, showed recently by someone with CFW on PS5. They even have fucking drivers for PS5 GPU...

 

[adamsapple]

We're gonna be getting insufferable Adam again, aren't we?

Just having some fun, the console/PC debate is already insufferable as is.

 

[Darius87]

Since consoles went x86 they are mostly bog standard PC parts, with few tweaks here and there.

That's what I said in my original post, using off the shelf GPU and CPU does not define console vs. some obscure Toshiba CPU (in PS2) that developers struggled to use.

What defines console is closed system with games designed specifically for it. At the same time you can use x86 PS5 hardware as Linux PC, showed recently by someone with CFW on PS5. They even have fucking drivers for PS5 GPU...

so we now are from: 'There is barely anything custom about PS4 and PS5 APUs'
to what's defines console?, ok I'm done you're just moving your argument.
console != pc, end of story there's nothing more to add i proved you wrong i don't care about what defines console.

 

[Bojji]

so we now are from: 'There is barely anything custom about PS4 and PS5 APUs'
to what's defines console?, ok I'm done you're just moving your argument.
console != pc, end of story there's nothing more to add i proved you wrong i don't care about what defines console.

I was talking about CPU and GPU in the first post you quoted (but I used APU term that wasn't that specific), you added a bunch of things to the conversation.

I mean, power supply is custom as well in PS5?

 

[Darius87]

I was talking about CPU and GPU in the first post you quoted (but I used APU term that wasn't that specific), you added a bunch of things to the conversation.

I mean, power supply is custom as well in PS5?

i don't get what's your issue? cpu and gpu is apu.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Just having some fun, the console/PC debate is already insufferable as is.

I'm always insufferable, so

 

[adamsapple]

I'm always insufferable, so

 

[DeepEnigma]

 

[MisterXDTV]

you said: 'There is barely anything custom about PS4 and PS5 APUs'
i proved you wrong, we could debate about performance in orher thread.

It's not just wrong,

It's complete bullshit

PS5 APU is designed by Sony and they give AMD instructions to make it

The only limit is basically what AMD is capable of making at that moment in time, as Sony clearly can't ask for tech that AMD doesn't make

But you won't find that specific APU in any PC product on the market

That's why it's CUSTOM. It's BASED on AMD tech, but it's not the same as the fucking PC parts

PS5 Pro GPU is made of tech spanning 3 different generations of AMD GPUs (RDNA 2, 3, 4)

 

[Humdinger]

Stop right there.

We have already discussed this months ago. And you are avoiding the very real position that Microsoft can only offer BC of 3rd party games that are not play-anywhere if it is through a "console". Because that is the words in the contract that they had. MS doesn't have the means to go back to every game studio, some of which had ceased to exist, and re-write new contract terms. For most of them they only gave Xbox the right to sell console games, NOT PC licenses. And as stupid as it sounds, the words are clear cut that Xbox can't just transplant the license to a PC emulator.

You think this is about people arguing over the internet. The reality is that Helix's very existence hinges on the physical chip that MS called the "console" which keeps to the letter of the contract. Without which Helix would lose the BC and thus truly become nothing but a PC.

That's interesting. So you're saying that MS has to refer to Helix as a "console," or else they could not run last-gen (XSX) versions of third-party games on it via the BC chip? Am I understanding that correctly? They have to use that language, or else they could be subject to lawsuits from third-party publishers?

 

[Sooner]

If most people are hooking it up to their tv and primarily using controller it's a console.

If the device exists for you to access the Steam store to buy Steam games from Valve, it's not an Xbox.

 

[Topher]

That's interesting. So you're saying that MS has to refer to Helix a "console," or else they could not run last-gen (XSX) versions of third-party games on it via the BC chip? Am I understanding that correctly? They have to use that language, or else they could be subject to lawsuits from third-party publishers?

I've heard that elsewhere. Something to do with the publisher agreements. I don't know how accurate it is though.

 

[Sooner]

Hybrid really helped Nintendo, it's the best we've seen.

What is Hyrid about it? It's a PC with normal PC features intentionally blocked off.

That's the opposite of a hybrid. It's not two things - It's one thing cut in half.

 

[MisterXDTV]

That's interesting. So you're saying that MS has to refer to Helix a "console," or else they could not run last-gen (XSX) versions of third-party games on it via the BC chip? Am I understanding that correctly? They have to use that language, or else they could be subject to lawsuits from third-party publishers?

Makes sense. Those licenses devs gave were for a closed system, so at least the BC chip has to be locked someway to honor those contracts

In reality it's mostly irrelevant since Xbox hasn't had a real exclusive in more than a decade...

Everything was ported to PC after Mattrick left, including games that were Xbox One exclusives originally

 

[Bojji]

i don't get what's your issue? cpu and gpu is apu.

Yeah. You added bunch of different chips to the conversation.

It's not just wrong,

It's complete bullshit

PS5 APU is designed by Sony and they give AMD instructions to make it

The only limit is basically what AMD is capable of making at that moment in time, as Sony clearly can't ask for tech that AMD doesn't make

But you won't find that specific APU in any PC product on the market

That's why it's CUSTOM. It's BASED on AMD tech, but it's not the same as the fucking PC parts

PS5 Pro GPU is made of tech spanning 3 different generations of AMD GPUs (RDNA 2, 3, 4)

PS5 Pro - very custom GPU
PS4, PS4 Pro, PS5 - almost stock AMD GPUs.

 

[panda-zebra]

Wonder what this machine will do to the world of FPS games

I always buy my shooters on console and turn off crossplay with PC to try to avoid PC cheats

That's a weird one isn't it?

Build once, deploy everywhere... maybe there's an asterisk in there to prevent helix builds just being the PC game with a comfy couch UI and default joypad input.

It'd make sense it if was left up to the devs and on a game by game basis, so depending on how much extra effort they go to these kinds of options could be present. Locking Helix builds down to be just another PC player as far as the game and other players are concerned wouldn't be the best for this situation. Conversely there's all the benefits of mods etc. in that case, as long as that level of access is granted.

 

[NickFire]

no, I assume it's just a very closed off Xbox mode, and a limited Windows mode.

I could see them not shipping full Windows on it. in order to play Windows games you do not actually need full windows. you only need the Direct X runtime and similar libraries that are absolutely necessary to run games, plus a way to mimic the folder structure of Windows, which the current Xbox consoles already do to a degree.

having the PC part limited as much as possible would also make it less attractive for people that just want to get a cheap PC. if they want to sell it at the lowest price possible, that is actually key as to not entice crypto bros or general PC users buying them in masses and never using it as an actual console.

Do they really want anything to do with people just looking for a more capable steam machine that doesn't cost as much as a traditional gaming pc?

I just don't see how that benefits them. I can easily see how that hurts them though. But maybe the data collection has enough value to offset the internet praising how great it is solely to play Steam games on it.

 

[Darius87]

Yeah. You added bunch of different chips to the conversation.

ps5 apu is monolithic, why wouldn't I add if ps5 has it? why is this problem for you?

 

[deeptech]

StEAmKiLLeR??? This clickbait is not even trying. I'd not entertain MS gaming ecosystem even if they paid me to, it's not even remotely probable that XBOX may destroy Steam.

 

[Brucey]

And end results are mostly on par with equivalent PC hardware and Xbox that don't have most of it? Those things do help but are small stuff compared to raw CPU/GPU power. This remind me of that "secret sauce" talk from Xbox one launch...

Move those goalposts....everyone except seemingly you understands that the series and ps5 apus aren't identical.

 

[Bojji]

ps5 apu is monolithic, why wouldn't I add if ps5 has it? why is this problem for you?

Because I was talking about CPU and GPU that are doing the most important calculations. You added chips that help with certain things.

PC motherboard has shit ton of tiny chips on it as well, while stuff that is inside CPU and GPU is the most important thing for games performance.

Cache scrubbers are the only truly custom thing about base PS5 GPU, but how they compare to desktop RDNA2 systems or what is inside XSX GPU? PS4 had ACE modification and PS4 Pro supported 2x FP16 calculations. Those are the differences between them and Pitcairn, Polaris and RDNA1/2. Small differences...

Move those goalposts....everyone except seemingly you understands that the series and ps5 apus aren't identical.

Who said they are?

 

[Idleyes]

I think this comment of mine was close enough to give myself a pat on the back.

Alright. If I'm Asha and I'm serious about "saving" Xbox, I'd stop being a wuss. Timed exclusives on every first-party drop (yeah that means call of duty as well). Day one = Game Pass only. You want it early? Subscribe. After 12 months? Cool, sell it elsewhere. Double dip the revenue. If Sony or Nintendo complains, the answer is simple: "We're not restricting our games. We're prioritizing our ecosystem at launch. After the exclusivity window, publishers are free to negotiate distribution like any other product in the market."

Make next-gen Xbox the open box. Steam, Epic, Gog etc. access (via Windows under the hood). Native mod support. continue Full cross-save across consoles, PC, and cloud. One machine that plays (almost) everything. Develop the Xbox UI so it's the cleanest, fastest, most frictionless way to play, even better than using a PC. Strip the bloat. No random Windows services running in the background. No driver drama. No launcher juggling. Just a lean gaming OS.

I'd want Sony to start feeling like some bitch I quit dating back in 2009 & Nintendo to look like the platform for children it already is.

Commit or quit.

 

[Brucey]

Because I was talking about CPU and GPU that are doing the most important calculations. You added chips that help with certain things.

PC motherboard has shit ton of tiny chips on it as well, while stuff that is inside CPU and GPU is the most important thing for games performance.

Cache scrubbers are the only truly custom thing about base PS5 GPU, but how they compare to desktop RDNA2 systems or what is inside XSX GPU? PS4 had ACE modification and PS4 Pro supported 2x FP16 calculations. Those are the differences between them and Pitcairn, Polaris and RDNA1/2. Small differences...



Who said they are?

Dench and yourself?

Post in thread 'FSR Diamond of Xbox Helix will be an RDNA 5 / UDNA exclusive, all previous and current RDNA 1 - 4 GPUs will be unsupported by the new FSR Next' https://www.neogaf.com/threads/fsr-...ed-by-the-new-fsr-next.1694516/post-271364159

 

[Bojji]

Dench and yourself?

Post in thread 'FSR Diamond of Xbox Helix will be an RDNA 5 / UDNA exclusive, all previous and current RDNA 1 - 4 GPUs will be unsupported by the new FSR Next' https://www.neogaf.com/threads/fsr-...ed-by-the-new-fsr-next.1694516/post-271364159

That was about Helix and PS6...