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[Satyamdas]

The argument of causality is philosophically outdated and also invalidated by modern physics. The gist of it is that causality breaks down when there's no time, and time as we know it started existing with the big bang.
You can define anything you want. Most religions define God as infinite and eternal, okay. That doesn't mean that definition takes preference over my definition of the infinite and eternal stapler that caused the Big Bang. It's all pointless as long as there's nothing indicating any preference. Besides, if things can be eternal and infinite, why can't the Universe itself be that, so that we don't need a God. Occam's Razor gives that theory a lot more precedence.

I often wonder if all the people who love to trot out the corpse of William of Ockham in these debates even know that he was a theist? Not that him being a theist is proof of anything, I just find it ironic that his principle is used so frequently when he himself said that the razor is useless when discussing the existence of god.

The ways of God are not open to reason, for God has freely chosen to create a world and establish a way of salvation within it apart from any necessary laws that human logic or rationality can uncover.

Occam knew what was up. To demand that an eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient entity (to use the most common traits believed to be possessed by god) somehow neatly fit within our limited human construct of logic is patently absurd. Everyone is so busy trying to bring god down to their understanding, make him fit in whatever parameters they have decided he can't violate. This is nothing more than ego run amok. "Well if god exists then he has to exist in the manner *I* deem logical."

No. If god exists then he is beyond your puny logic. He would be logical, illogical, and neither simultaneously.

 

[KHarvey16]

I often wonder if all the people who love to trot out the corpse of William of Ockham in these debates even know that he was a theist? Not that him being a theist is proof of anything, I just find it ironic that his principle is used so frequently when he himself said that the razor is useless when discussing the existence of god.


Occam knew what was up. To demand that an eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient entity (to use the most common traits believed to be possessed by god) somehow neatly fit within our limited human construct of logic is patently absurd. Everyone is so busy trying to bring god down to their understanding, make him fit in whatever parameters they have decided he can't violate. This is nothing more than ego run amok. "Well if god exists then he has to exist in the manner *I* deem logical."

No. If god exists then he is beyond your puny logic. He would be logical, illogical, and neither simultaneously.

This argument has won Cop-out of the Year every single year since the prize's inception. It's an unbreakable record.

 

[Red]

Are you mixing God (capitalized for abrahamic purposes hehe) with god?

Yeah, any time I mention God in this thread it should be taken as the general, uncapitalized form. My phone makes it "God" with autocorrect and I haven't bothered to change every instance.

 

[Zaptruder]

No. If god exists then he is beyond your puny logic. He would be logical, illogical, and neither simultaneously.

You'd expect that from an omnipotent being.

Just like you'd expect the omnipotent island to be beyond our means of comprehending it as well.

 

[Satyamdas]

This argument has won Cop-out of the Year every single year since the prize's inception. It's an unbreakable record.

Yes, you have god backed into a corner with your mighty logic and reason, and he plays the cop-out card to escape every time. No chance at all that god might be beyond your means of understanding or the limits of your logic. Noooooo, of course not. If KHarvey16 can't fathom it, then there is absolutely no chance of it existing.

Keep stroking that ego, my friend.

You'd expect that from an omnipotent being.

Just like you'd expect the omnipotent island to be beyond our means of comprehending it as well.

Right, which is why invoking Occam's Razor when discussing god is ill advised.

 

[Lionheart1337]

God doesn't fit within your puny logic.....he fits in mine.

Guys Darwin renounced evolution on his deathbed, it's no longer applicable or true.

 

[Zaptruder]

Right, which is why invoking Occam's Razor when discussing god is ill advised.

Omnipotent island...

You do realise that I'm simply making the point that you can't just simply name a bunch of illogical contradicting powers and tack them onto something and say its bulletproof right?

It seems inherently childish to me...

"Superman uses his super speed and laser beam eyes to beat SSJ3 Goku!"

"NO Goku powers upto SSJ4! He's now stronger than Superman!

And btw, SSJ4 Goku has super invincible infinity immunity clause! This extends protection from Nuclear bombs and the Sun to Lawyers and Hitler!"

"FUUUUuuu"

 

[KHarvey16]

Yes, you have god backed into a corner with your mighty logic and reason, and he plays the cop-out card to escape every time. No chance at all that god might be beyond your means of understanding or the limits of your logic. Noooooo, of course not. If KHarvey16 can't fathom it, then there is absolutely no chance of it existing.

Keep stroking that ego, my friend.

God isn't playing the cop-out card, you are. Who's got the ego, exactly? The entire premise is ridiculous, and if you disagree it's simply because it is ridiculous on a level you can't comprehend.

 

[Dude Abides]

If god is so utterly unknowable there's no reason to even think about it or believe in it. That is probably why so few theists hold to a version of god as actually entirely incomprehensible. The claim is also self contradictory. If god is unknowable, how do you know it's unknowable?

 

[KHarvey16]

If god is so utterly unknowable there's no reason to even think about it or believe in it. That is probably why so few theists hold to a version of god actually is entirely incomprehensible.

Comprehensible when passing along commands to despise homosexuality, incomprehensible when asked why he doesn't make any sense.

 

[Zaptruder]

Comprehensible when passing along commands to despise homosexuality, incomprehensible when asked why he doesn't make any sense.

"He has his inscrutable, but perfect reasons."


No assholes, you're just fucking dense and have no reason to support your arbitrary belief system. But hey... at least you know how to emotionally exploit the uncertainty of some less than knowledgeable or informed people as well.

 

[Satyamdas]

Omnipotent island...

You do realise that I'm simply making the point that you can't just simply name a bunch of illogical contradicting powers and tack them onto something and say its bulletproof right?

It seems inherently childish to me...

And I see the opposite view as childish as well.

That just because you can't conceive of something then it must not exist or even be POSSIBLE to exist. I understand the desire to view one's own sense of what is logical as unassailable or inviolable, but it just screams egotism to me. It's petulance.

 

[leadbelly]

If god is so utterly unknowable there's no reason to even think about it or believe in it. That is probably why so few theists hold to a version of god as actually entirely incomprehensible. The claim is also self contradictory. If god is unknowable, how do you know it's unknowable?

Interestingly, I'm not sure there are many religions that claim you can actually speak to god, or be in his presence. That may seem confusing.

Moses never spoke to god for instance. He spoke to the angel of the lord that manifested in the form of a burning bush. Supposedly god spoke through him. There is always a veil.

 

[Satyamdas]

God isn't playing the cop-out card, you are. Who's got the ego, exactly? The entire premise is ridiculous, and if you disagree it's simply because it is ridiculous on a level you can't comprehend.

And what exactly am I copping out of? You have the ego, son. You are convinced that you are the final arbiter of all existence, of what is possible and what is not.

 

[Lionheart1337]

And I see the opposite view as childish as well.

That just because you can't conceive of something then it must not exist or even be POSSIBLE to exist. I understand the desire to view one's own sense of what is logical as unassailable or inviolable, but it just screams egotism to me. It's petulance.

Fuck, you just broke my hypocrisy meter.

 

[Satyamdas]

Fuck, you just broke my hypocrisy meter.

Yes, I know. Saying that I'm uncertain whether god exists or not, but refusing to dismiss the possibility, is exactly like saying that if you can't fathom it then it must not and cannot exist. Caught me red handed, bro.

 

[Dude Abides]

Interestingly, I'm not sure there are many religions that claim you can actually speak to god, or be in his presence. That may seem confusing.

Moses never spoke to god for instance. He spoke to the angel of the lord that manifested in the form of a burning bush. Supposedly god spoke through him. There is always a veil.

I am not referring to face to face contact. I am referring to knowing or understanding anything about him at all.

Also, Moses did speak to Yahweh face to face.

http://bible.cc/exodus/33-11.htm

Edit: who is dismissing the possibility of a god existing? That is not supportable. The view that the likelihood is trivial is, though.

 

[leadbelly]

I am not referring to face to face contact. I am referring to knowing or understanding anything about him at all.

Also, Moses did speak to Yahweh face to face.

http://bible.cc/exodus/33-11.htm

The LORD spoke to Moses. This is about Jewish words and the context in which they are used. They used different words for different aspects of god. He never spoke to god though, there is an intermediary force. That which unites the physical with the spiritual.

http://bible.cc/exodus/33-20.htm

 

[Lionheart1337]

Yes, I know. Saying that I'm uncertain whether god exists or not, but refusing to dismiss the possibility, is exactly like saying that if you can't fathom it then it must not and cannot exist. Caught me red handed, bro.

GAFman used Human Logic on God....it didn't work!

It's egotistical and childish to assume that god doesn't exist because "god could be beyond our perception", yet creating this escape hatch of an argument is not.

Oh you can't do that because god is impervious. He has 12 million HP.

 

[Chaplain]

We can know who God is through Jesus.

"Long ago God spoke many times and in many ways to our ancestors through the prophets. And now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he created the universe. The Son radiates God’s own glory and expresses the very character of God, and he sustains everything by the mighty power of his command."

That is why Jesus said the following to Philip:

Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.” Jesus replied, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don’t know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you? 1Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I speak are not my own, but my Father who lives in me does his work through me. Just believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or at least believe because of the work you have seen me do.

 

[KHarvey16]

And what exactly am I copping out of? You have the ego, son. You are convinced that you are the final arbiter of all existence, of what is possible and what is not.

You are copping out of the process of actually questioning the validity and status of a hypothesis you have some emotional attachment to. You jump through these childish "herrr infinity +1 I win!" arguments to justify giving it special consideration among all the unsupported hypotheses out there.

 

[Dude Abides]

The LORD spoke to Moses. This is about Jewish words and the context in which they are used. They used different words for different aspects of god. He never spoke to god though, there is an intermediary force. That which unites the physical with the spiritual.

http://bible.cc/exodus/33-20.htm

I am aware of the contradiction in the verses. One way to resolve them is to say face to face is an idiom and gods back was turned.

http://www.swrc.com/ministry/faqs/ot/face.html

Still direct contact though. Not sure what you're getting at trying to draw a distinction between the lord and god. Anyway, this is a tangent because it's indisputable that most faiths claim to know at least some things about god.

 

[Zaptruder]

And I see the opposite view as childish as well.

That just because you can't conceive of something then it must not exist or even be POSSIBLE to exist. I understand the desire to view one's own sense of what is logical as unassailable or inviolable, but it just screams egotism to me. It's petulance.

Not necessarily. I've given the concept of god enough credit by admitting that I can't ever know of whether or not they'll be a god - if he remains outside our ability to measure or find evidence for/against it.

I'm not about to step off the edge of the absurd by conceding that rationality and logic are too limited to 'know the mind of god'.

Because if I do that, then I let the possibility of all kinds of bizarre fucking ideas into my head - ideas that could be 'beyond the scope of my puny human mind to understand'.

If logic, rationality, et al have been our guide posts to the most effective method of thinking and acting devised in human history... then I scarcely see the reason to skewer it in favour of; potentially even greater knowledge... that is unfortunately by necessity not understandable to us.

It's not like we've arrived at these tools easily as a human race. It's taken immense effort to even chance across them; we're lucky to be the inheritors of the human legacy of knowledge and understanding that has been built off the backs of billions. It speaks to the height of ignorance that you'd learn about these tools, learn how to use them, but then discard them in favour of emotionally favourable appeals about 'unknowability' and 'omnipotence'.

 

[Chaplain]

Not necessarily. I've given the concept of god enough credit by admitting that I can't ever know of whether or not they'll be a god - if he remains outside our ability to measure or find evidence for/against it.

God gives a promise that those who do search for him will find him.

"For I know the plans I have for you,” says the LORD. “They are plans for good and not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope. In those days when you pray, I will listen. If you look for me wholeheartedly, you will find me. I will be found by you,” says the LORD.

 

[soul creator]

it's interesting how the arguments for God seem to ultimately just come down to asserting things. "Well, God is supposed to be infinite! Silly atheists, your normal reasoning doesn't work on it!"

It's fun to do and all, but that's really where it ends. The problem with that process is that you can literally do that with anything, and be in the exact same spot at the end of the day. In fact, human beings are quite good at it...we usually call it "fiction" or "storytelling" though. The only difference is that "god" happens to be a much more popular and acceptable concept to do this with, even if it's on equivalent standing (evidence wise) as the millions of other things humans have decide to merely assert over the years.

 

[Orayn]

God gives a promise that those who do search for him will find him.

"For I know the plans I have for you,” says the LORD. “They are plans for good and not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope. In those days when you pray, I will listen. If you look for me wholeheartedly, you will find me. I will be found by you,” says the LORD.

This is an escape hatch. You can use it to claim that anyone who looks for God but doesn't find him wasn't being sincere in their search, when sincerity is obviously not something you can determine.

 

[Zaptruder]

God gives a promise that those who do search for him will find him.

"For I know the plans I have for you,” says the LORD. “They are plans for good and not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope. In those days when you pray, I will listen. If you look for me wholeheartedly, you will find me. I will be found by you,” says the LORD.

Do you have any other schtick than quoting bible scripture in these sorts of threads? You know that kinda stuff is completely meaningless to anyone that exercises a critical thinking mindset right?

 

[xavi42]

Man does not have the answers, as many seem to think. We don't really understand the nature of reality (quantum mechanics), we don't even know how most of the universe is made up of something we have no idea what it is! (dark matter and dark energy). I have a feeling our universe and our reality are so complex that the human race will never be able to unravel it.

 

[Lionheart1337]

Man does not have the answers, as many seem to think. We don't really understand the nature of reality (quantum mechanics), we don't even know how most of the universe is made up of something we have no idea what it is! (dark matter and dark energy). I have a feeling our universe and our reality are so complex that the human race will never be able to unravel it.

Yea. Why even try. Hang up the labcoats guys it's hopeless. Let's go have a beer.

 

[Orayn]

Man does not have the answers, as many seem to think. We don't really understand the nature of reality (quantum mechanics), we don't even know how most of the universe is made up of something we have no idea what it is! (dark matter and dark energy). I have a feeling our universe and our reality are so complex that the human race will never be able to unravel it.

We understand a great deal about quantum mechanics, though much of it is confusing and unintuitive to most people. In addition, not perfectly understanding something is not the same as having no idea, and it certainly isn't an invitation to explain all the unknowns with God, as many do.

 

[Chaplain]

This is an escape hatch. You can use it to claim that anyone who looks for God but doesn't find him wasn't being sincere in their search, when sincerity is obviously not something you can determine.

What I am certain of is God is always looking for those who will worship him in Spirit and Truth. That I do know. I do not know the heart of each individual person. I do not know if a person is just asking to say that they asked and to prove to others that God doesn't exist.

Do you have any other schtick than quoting bible scripture in these sorts of threads? You know that kinda stuff is completely meaningless to anyone that exercises a critical thinking mindset right?

I thought you were being sincere in your question. I shared with you that verse because I wanted you to know that God does want you to know him.

Whether or not you believe what I shared is up to you. Only you can decide if what I said is meaningless or not.

 

[Zaptruder]

What I am certain of is God is always looking for those who will worship him in Spirit and Truth. That I do know. I do not know the heart of each individual person. I do not know if a person is just asking to say that they asked and to prove to others that God doesn't exist.



I thought you were being sincere in your question. I shared with you that verse because I wanted you to know what God does want to know you.

Whether or not you believe what I shared is up to you. Only you can decide if what I said is meaningless or not.

Well. You really are a man of faith. And I'm sure you'll take that as a complement, even though I mean quite exactly the opposite.

 

[xavi42]

Yea. Why even try. Hang up the labcoats guys it's hopeless. Let's go have a beer.

No, I think man has achieved so much and will continue to make great strides. But at the end of the day, the deeper we go into reality, the more we discover a mystery that never ends. We will never be able to find the answers about the true nature of reality.

 

[KHarvey16]

No, I think man has achieved so much and will continue to make great strides. But at the end of the day, the deeper we go into reality, the more we discover a mystery that never ends. We will never be able to find the answers about the true nature of reality.

Never is a long time.

 

[Lionheart1337]

What I am certain of is God is always looking for those who will worship him in Spirit and Truth. That I do know. I do not know the heart of each individual person. I do not know if a person is just asking to say that they asked and to prove to others that God doesn't exist.

I thought you were being sincere in your question. I shared with you that verse because I wanted you to know that God does want you to know him.

Whether or not you believe what I shared is up to you. Only you can decide if what I said is meaningless or not.

God told me on Skype that he could do without my acquaintance.

You forgot the part where we scorch for eternity if we don't believe it. That's vital.

 

[Zaptruder]

No, I think man has achieved so much and will continue to make great strides. But at the end of the day, the deeper we go into reality, the more we discover a mystery that never ends. We will never be able to find the answers about the true nature of reality.

It depends on what you mean by true.

If you mean we'll never be able to experience stuff outside this plane of reality and see if there's some other substrate (be it 4 elephants on a turtle on an endless ocean, or a super-computer simulating our existence) supporting our existence, then you're probably right.

But my feeling is, that external substrate doesn't really matter so much as internal congruency matters.

 

[BobDylan]

There is a military funeral a block from my house today. Apparently westboro will be in attendance and I'm interested in checking it out. Anyone had any experience with these guys.

 

[Chaplain]

God told me on Skype that he could do without my acquaintance.

You forgot the part where we scorch for eternity if we don't believe it. That's vital.

Two things if you do not mind me responding.

1. God loves you so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that if you believe in his Son you will not perish but have eternal life. This is God's heart toward you and every other person on the planet.

2. God doesn't want anyone to be separated from him when they die. God wants everyone to be saved. If you want to go to hell, then you can go to hell. That is your choice.

 

[Chaplain]

Anyone had any experience with these guys.

These people hate God, pretend to know God and give God a bad name.

 

[Zaptruder]

Two things if you do not mind me responding.

1. God loves you so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that if you believe in his Son you will not perish but have eternal life. This is God's heart toward you and every other person on the planet.

2. God doesn't want anyone to be separated from him when they die. God wants everyone to be saved. If you want to go to hell, then you can go to hell. That is your choice.

Ah hahahaha. That's a blast.

Your choice.

(disclaimer): As long as your choice also includes accepting him unconditionally as your god and saviour, relinquishing your capacity for reason at least as it pertains to god, and ideally follow a bunch of really crazy fucking shit that only makes sense within the echo chamber of men turned sheep.

Spoiler

Anyway. Gonna stop engaging Game Analyst. I know the dude feeds off attention, and is probably a strong persecution-complex type.

 

[Chaplain]

Ah hahahaha. That's a blast.

Your choice.

(disclaimer): As long as your choice also includes accepting him unconditionally as your god and saviour, relinquishing your capacity for reason at least as it pertains to god, and ideally follow a bunch of really crazy fucking shit that only makes sense within the echo chamber of men turned sheep.

Spoiler

Anyway. Gonna stop engaging Game Analyst. I know the dude feeds off attention, and is probably a strong persecution-complex type.

If this is what you believe, I am sorry that you believe this.

 

[Satyamdas]

GAFman used Human Logic on God....it didn't work!

It's egotistical and childish to assume that god doesn't exist because "god could be beyond our perception", yet creating this escape hatch of an argument is not.

Oh you can't do that because god is impervious. He has 12 million HP.

You keep saying that I'm creating an escape hatch or copping out, but the reality is I haven't put forth an argument for the existence of god. All I've done is critique the mindset that says "If I can't understand it then it must not be possible." That mentality is hubris and ego of the highest order, and this thread, nay, this entire forum, nay, this entire planet has it in spades.

You are copping out of the process of actually questioning the validity and status of a hypothesis you have some emotional attachment to. You jump through these childish "herrr infinity +1 I win!" arguments to justify giving it special consideration among all the unsupported hypotheses out there.

1. I haven't shared a hypothesis with you. All I've said is that positioning your logic as the barometer for what may or may not exist is irrational and rash egotism.

2. I don't have any emotional attachment to it because I realize I don't know the answer. On the contrary, you are the one with the emotional reaction. Look how you foam at the mouth just because someone has the audacity to say "maybe our logic is not infallible, maybe it has limits and god exists beyond them."

Not necessarily. I've given the concept of god enough credit by admitting that I can't ever know of whether or not they'll be a god - if he remains outside our ability to measure or find evidence for/against it.

I'm not about to step off the edge of the absurd by conceding that rationality and logic are too limited to 'know the mind of god'.

Because if I do that, then I let the possibility of all kinds of bizarre fucking ideas into my head - ideas that could be 'beyond the scope of my puny human mind to understand'.

Exactly my point. This idea frightens you. It threatens you. OH NOES! MAYBE I DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING!!! This idea is bothersome to the pompous and the arrogant. So what do you do? You deify your own logic and reason. You make them impervious and infallible. You close off your own thinking even as you claim otherwise.

If logic, rationality, et al have been our guide posts to the most effective method of thinking and acting devised in human history... then I scarcely see the reason to skewer it in favour of; potentially even greater knowledge... that is unfortunately by necessity not understandable to us.

It's not like we've arrived at these tools easily as a human race. It's taken immense effort to even chance across them; we're lucky to be the inheritors of the human legacy of knowledge and understanding that has been built off the backs of billions. It speaks to the height of ignorance that you'd learn about these tools, learn how to use them, but then discard them in favour of emotionally favourable appeals about 'unknowability' and 'omnipotence'.

Who says they have to be discarded? All I've said is that these tools may be inadequate for fully grasping god. Why does that concept irritate you so much? It's because that concept threatens your deified logic.

 

[Zaptruder]

Who says they have to be discarded? All I've said is that these tools may be inadequate for fully grasping god. Why does that concept irritate you so much? It's because that concept threatens your deified logic.

Who says? Uh... it logically follows that if you're ignoring logic in order to accept 'incomprehensible ideas', some of which might include direct edicts to discard logic (e.g. faith is the highest virtue), then you are discarding it in favour for another method of acquiring understanding and beliefs.

Anyway dude... I've pushed you as far as you can logically be pushed. You've stepped over the boundary into the field of; people that you shouldn't bother having a logical discussion/arguments with.

 

[KHarvey16]

1. I haven't shared a hypothesis with you. All I've said is that positioning your logic as the barometer for what may or may not exist is irrational and rash egotism.

2. I don't have any emotional attachment to it because I realize I don't know the answer. On the contrary, you are the one with the emotional reaction. Look how you foam at the mouth just because someone has the audacity to say "maybe our logic is not infallible, maybe it has limits and god exists beyond them."

Maybe what our eyes see as blue is really red THIS WHOLE TIME and every time you say "hey, that sky is so blue" but it's REALLY RED! RED! So don't you come to me with no sky being blue theories buddy because you really don't know for sure.

 

[DarthWoo]

Two things if you do not mind me responding.

1. God loves you so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that if you believe in his Son you will not perish but have eternal life. This is God's heart toward you and every other person on the planet.

2. God doesn't want anyone to be separated from him when they die. God wants everyone to be saved. If you want to go to hell, then you can go to hell. That is your choice.

Or unless of course if you were one of the countless people who were uncontacted by any of the various Christian entities, violent or otherwise, throughout the whole of human history.

 

[Satyamdas]

Who says? Uh... it logically follows that if you're ignoring logic in order to accept 'incomprehensible ideas', some of which might include direct edicts to discard logic (e.g. faith is the highest virtue), then you are discarding it in favour for another method of acquiring understanding and beliefs.

Bullshit. I don't have to ignore any logic at all to say "There may exist something which defies logic". It's a possibility, it isn't a guiding principle. In fact, I'd have to ignore logic in order to believe that my logic is complete and infallible and universally true.

Anyway dude... I've pushed you as far as you can logically be pushed. You've stepped over the boundary into the field of; people that you shouldn't bother having a logical discussion/arguments with.

You haven't pushed a thing. You've made a bunch of weak statements and stamped your feet, but you haven't forced me anywhere or revealed anything except your own hubris.

 

[leadbelly]

I am aware of the contradiction in the verses. One way to resolve them is to say face to face is an idiom and gods back was turned.

http://www.swrc.com/ministry/faqs/ot/face.html

Still direct contact though. Not sure what you're getting at trying to draw a distinction between the lord and god. Anyway, this is a tangent because it's indisputable that most faiths claim to know at least some things about god.

Well, you're sort of taking 'contact' literally in that sense. Like it means god was there, so if his back was turned, that means he is still there. Moses talks to god in the form of a burning bush, yet he doesn't actually talk to god. He talks to the angel of the lord who manifests in the form of a burning bush. In other words it is a level of truth, a level of understanding that is communicated to moses, and not the absolute truth.

When it says moses was speaking to god face to face it is talking about the Shekinah. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shekhinah

It is the context in which LORD is used.

 

[Lionheart1337]

You keep saying that I'm creating an escape hatch or copping out, but the reality is I haven't put forth an argument for the existence of god. All I've done is critique the mindset that says "If I can't understand it then it must not be possible." That mentality is hubris and ego of the highest order, and this thread, nay, this entire forum, nay, this entire planet has it in spades.

But you have. If you want to deny it go right ahead, just know that you're shitting yourself.

I`m glad it's somehow you that's exception to the hubris and ego of the world. You, in the most unoriginal fashion conjured this idea that god is out of our reach, and in that same breath pondered our capacity for understanding god. Only you can understand that this un-understandable being isn't understandable. "My final ace in the hole : All that logic and stuff that we use to understand things? GOD IS IMMUNE TO IT. I win!" I refuse to believe that you are that blind that you cannot see the blatant hypocrisy in that.

 

[Count Dookkake]

These people hate God, pretend to know God and give God a bad name.

They love god.

They don't pretend to know god anymore than you do.

 

[soul creator]

that's the funny thing about accepting faith, miracles, purely subjective experiences, and "I feel it in my heart", as a valid form of evidence: when someone proposes an alternate explanation coming from those same concepts, it's pretty difficult for you to say they're "incorrect".

"wrong" and "incorrect" makes sense with regards to some agreed upon baseline...but if that baseline is faith-based, there's no way to ever resolve that. So the liberal religious believer can try to say the conservatives are "wrong" for their beliefs, but it's not like they have any reason for doing so (unless the baseline they use is secular and reality-based...which means they're no longer doing the "religion" thing anymore)