Most of this thread is irrelevant. Whether it's slightly less powerful than 360/PS3, on par, or slightly more powerful, it's still not going to compare to the consoles it's really going to be up against in 720 and PS4. It's Wii all over again, this time with less quirky appeal.
GI.biz: "Wii U less powerful than PS3, Xbox 360, developers say"
- Thread starter Hoo-doo
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Thunder Monkey
Banned
Good looking real-time. Not doing anything that we can tell out of range of current consoles aside from the approach to Global Illumination. Everything seems to generally be of higher precision, but it is hard to know without documentation.
please demonstrate said global illumination.
people talked a lot about GI in the Zelda demo but it wasn't there.
So what was happening on the controller screen while the bird demo was playing?
I mean this in a "did they sacrifice any sort of controller image to use more power for the bird demo" kind of way.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
I have no idea if it's real-time GI or a pre-baked approximation like we saw on the other consoles, but when the bird is flying over the water, light is reflecting back up on the bird. It was an impressive display, but not out of range of current consoles.
edit: I realized I contradicted myself squidy. I should have said up there "Not doing anything that we can tell out of range of current consoles aside from the approach to Global Illumination. If it is more than pre-baked."
You had another camera angle, albeit with a limited range of view with similar fidelity. Naturally at a lower resolution.
Nintendo has stuck with the "good enough" standard when it comes to console hardware and Wii U won't likely be the exception. Whatever the console lacks in graphics, it will make up for with its unique capabilities. This is similar to how 3DS is not as powerful as the PS Vita yet capable of doing 3D without the glasses. The platform just has to be strong enough to make whatever gimmick Nintendo wants to focus on work effectively and smoothly. Devs will be attracted to it. Of course, if third-party games don't sell well, then Wii U is going to suffer almost as badly as the Wii did - just without the much cheaper development costs.
Even if Wii U is essentially like the 360's HD visuals, then at least it will likely have better performance. It probably has less to do with "future-proofing" the console and more to do with making it capable of handling the seemingly stressful tech involved in getting the console to work with the UPad without a hitch (kind of like how the 3DS has to be strong enough to render the games twice in 3D). For all we know, Wii U may even be capable of handling UE4 if its scaled down. In any case, it can't be as bad as it was with the Wii's graphics where it wasn't only behind the 360 and PS3, but also lacked HD output and even shaders.
I think the reality is Nintendo won't be getting the strongest third-party support. Third-parties have been burned by Nintendo before with its past home consoles to put all their eggs in one nest. Even when third-parties offer multiplatform games on Nintenod consoles, the case is often that the other versions sell better. However, in all fairness, a lot of devs don't even give Nintendo versions of their games a chance to be successful to do poor marketing and overlooking them in favor of a different platform's version. Nintendo really just needs to make Wii U compotent enough so that it qualifies for the LCD for third-party multiplatform support. It may get lucky and serve as the lead platform for some current-gen games.However, being lead platform once Xbox 3 and PS4 enter the fray probably won't happen. That's naturally where making it easy to port games to becomes even more important. After all, most of us recognize how the third-party exclusive is becoming a thing of the past. Beyond just making Wii U an easy platform to port third-party software to, Nintendo's already solved the issue of dual analog controls so developing for a specialized controller won't be nearly as much of an issue as it was for the Wii. Even if devs feel like they're ported games need to take advantage of Wii U's controller, most of it seems like it can be implented with ease. The most basic capabilities would give Wii U a slight advantage even if Wii U version of the game cannot visually compete against Xbox 3 and PS4. Quite frankly, that's the part Nintendo hopes it can rely on third-parties for.
Then there's the online service. More and more it seems to be like graphics are the least thing Nintendo is going to be focused on with the Wii U. Yes, they'll make impressive games and take advantage of their own hardware (as they always do), but establishing a more flexible online service is a bigger priority. It's going to be easier for gamers and developers to be more accepting of Wii U's lack of visual punch over another outdated home console online service. Fortunately, we've already seen signs of Nintendo moving forward with a better online service plan that's account based and capable of using the controller for voice chat, video chat,and internet browsing using a virtual keyboard on the touchscreen.
Even if Wii U is essentially like the 360's HD visuals, then at least it will likely have better performance. It probably has less to do with "future-proofing" the console and more to do with making it capable of handling the seemingly stressful tech involved in getting the console to work with the UPad without a hitch (kind of like how the 3DS has to be strong enough to render the games twice in 3D). For all we know, Wii U may even be capable of handling UE4 if its scaled down. In any case, it can't be as bad as it was with the Wii's graphics where it wasn't only behind the 360 and PS3, but also lacked HD output and even shaders.
I think the reality is Nintendo won't be getting the strongest third-party support. Third-parties have been burned by Nintendo before with its past home consoles to put all their eggs in one nest. Even when third-parties offer multiplatform games on Nintenod consoles, the case is often that the other versions sell better. However, in all fairness, a lot of devs don't even give Nintendo versions of their games a chance to be successful to do poor marketing and overlooking them in favor of a different platform's version. Nintendo really just needs to make Wii U compotent enough so that it qualifies for the LCD for third-party multiplatform support. It may get lucky and serve as the lead platform for some current-gen games.However, being lead platform once Xbox 3 and PS4 enter the fray probably won't happen. That's naturally where making it easy to port games to becomes even more important. After all, most of us recognize how the third-party exclusive is becoming a thing of the past. Beyond just making Wii U an easy platform to port third-party software to, Nintendo's already solved the issue of dual analog controls so developing for a specialized controller won't be nearly as much of an issue as it was for the Wii. Even if devs feel like they're ported games need to take advantage of Wii U's controller, most of it seems like it can be implented with ease. The most basic capabilities would give Wii U a slight advantage even if Wii U version of the game cannot visually compete against Xbox 3 and PS4. Quite frankly, that's the part Nintendo hopes it can rely on third-parties for.
Then there's the online service. More and more it seems to be like graphics are the least thing Nintendo is going to be focused on with the Wii U. Yes, they'll make impressive games and take advantage of their own hardware (as they always do), but establishing a more flexible online service is a bigger priority. It's going to be easier for gamers and developers to be more accepting of Wii U's lack of visual punch over another outdated home console online service. Fortunately, we've already seen signs of Nintendo moving forward with a better online service plan that's account based and capable of using the controller for voice chat, video chat,and internet browsing using a virtual keyboard on the touchscreen.
Global Illumination? Ooh, sounds impressive. What is that, exactly? Is it one of the next generation of buzzwords?
Thunder Monkey
Banned
No, this one would actually be an impressive achievement. If you want your light to behave realistically with your characters and environments.
Yeah, we will have to take a wait and see approach to everything, these unidentified devs who are working on the Wii U, could just be using an engine that is poorly implemented on the console, we have a few developers who have come forward and declared that it is more powerful, has more resources, and that games will look better... and then there are the 2 demos which both look to be keeping up with the PS360 fine, especially when you see that the bird demo is being rendered twice.
Your thinking aligns with mine pretty well here, except I do believe third parties will be here this next gen, simply because they did very few exclusives, infact almost every PS3 exclusive this gen was in house, and Nintendo's house of software is pretty extensive, so no problems there.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
man, if this actually came about... what would even be the point in updating the hardware at all? just to sell a non-portable tablet that has no use other than gaming and even then, in a very limited fashion?
I thought that was HDR?
If true, I wish I could just sit back and say "doesn't matter to me" but it does. The next playstation and xbox are still a year or more away, yes, but once they are out, we are talking about machines that are way way more powerful than the Wii U, and it is going to be the same story all over again. All the developers will abandon the Wii U because it's "gimped" in the horsepower department and I do not want to see that happen!
GrotesqueBeauty
Banned
Nintendo doesn't care about its hardcore fans now, huh?
Aaron Strife
Banned
No surprise, I thought journalists already confirmed this based on the
trailers at E3.
If you're talking about the Mario, Zelda, Pokemon crowd I think they're pretty set.
If you're talking about the guy whose last Nintendo console was Nintendo 64 and waxes nostalgic on IGN about the good old days when Nintendo apparently had massive third party support, was always ahead of the curb in technology, and never dumbed down their games for KIDDIES and NON-GAMERS, well...
Wii U will be exactly the same as Wii. Hardcore dudebro gamers will complain until the cows come home and Nintendo will make out like kings. And they'll release some games every now and then.
360 version
And who are Nintendo's hardcore fans exactly?EviLore said:
If you're talking about the Mario, Zelda, Pokemon crowd I think they're pretty set.
If you're talking about the guy whose last Nintendo console was Nintendo 64 and waxes nostalgic on IGN about the good old days when Nintendo apparently had massive third party support, was always ahead of the curb in technology, and never dumbed down their games for KIDDIES and NON-GAMERS, well...
Wii U will be exactly the same as Wii. Hardcore dudebro gamers will complain until the cows come home and Nintendo will make out like kings. And they'll release some games every now and then.
Makes for great entertainment though.
IrishNinja
Member
...these are all very good posts.
personally, there's quite a wide spectrum between 360 & "5x current gen!" and i'm hoping this somehow ends up closer to the middle, but if and when it's on the lower end of the scale, i'm a) going to have my expectations appropriately adjusted, and b) going to rely on 1st part efforts to best utilize the hardware.
i don't have stock in nintendo or any other company. if missing parity with the rest of the next-gen systems, or the online, or any number of factors again keep it limited on the 3rd party end (much less lead platform development/utilizing it's strengths), then i still get what is likely to be an enjoyable system with a handful of EAD/etc titles i love & replay, and a small number of exclusives that i end up really digging, too.
just like the wii. and the gamecube. and the n64 - pretty much the only system i grab day 1 because of this pattern, personally.
...you're not opiate
Thunder Monkey
Banned
HDR is High Dynamic Range rendering. The core concept is to simulate the high ranges of light our eyes pick up, and the effects of it. Shadows being darker when entering from a well lit area.
Global Illumination is more about how colors or intensities of light interplay with a texture.
Why does it matter to you?
If the Wii U is not to your liking, just get another console. I sure plan to!
Evilore said:
I don't understand why people don't just buy a console for what it is and not what it could have been had it been designed differently. If a relatively underpowered console with a tablet controller isn't to your liking, don't get a Wii U and get one of the other two.
Ouch, straight from the horse's mouth.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Does that imply such emotional investment is healthy if people feel they're being catered to by said company, or if said company does care about hardware power? Or emotional investment in other companies and therefor in the power of this hardware in, well, reverse, trying to proclaim how bad it is compared to others before we get any solid evidence for what any of them are preparing? Or that other similar companies do care about hardcore fans over maximising profit potential, regardless of their capability to do it and the way they choose to do it with (focusing on the power of the hardware is one such approach for the same goal after all)? That was an awfully specific comment and could be interpreted in these ways, as it has been, when the simple and healthy approach would be, as Thunder Monkey added below, to leave it at "hardware power" instead of add the rest and gear it against one side of the argument, while as a mod providing ammunition to just as irrational other sides that will just quote, applaud, etc.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
I would have just left it at hardware power.
We're nothing but ATM's to any of them anyway.
Pachterballs
Banned
Winnie the Pimp
Member
all this confusion about the Wii U's rumored power leads up to this:
1) Due to conflicting reports about the Wii U's power, we can now assume it will not be MUCH stronger than 360/PS3/not a generational leap or else there would be no discussions about it but people would simply admit to the leap like with previous gens.
2) Knowing this, in order to gauge the ACTUAL graphics capabilities of the Wii U, we will probably have to wait years and years to give different devs a chance to figure the intricacies of the system out and learn how to get the most out of it as with every system
the end
1) Due to conflicting reports about the Wii U's power, we can now assume it will not be MUCH stronger than 360/PS3/not a generational leap or else there would be no discussions about it but people would simply admit to the leap like with previous gens.
2) Knowing this, in order to gauge the ACTUAL graphics capabilities of the Wii U, we will probably have to wait years and years to give different devs a chance to figure the intricacies of the system out and learn how to get the most out of it as with every system
the end
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
You know, even if Nintendo keeps throwing at us Zeldas or Metroids or RPGs like Xenoblades, all of which I think can safely be considered as "core" games, I am willing to bet my life the Nintendo couldn't care less rhetoric will still be thrown around by those who dislike or those who wishes ill for the company. Do you consider games like Super Mario Galaxy, for example, as games unfit to be called "hardcore"?
Hell, they even managed to secure games like Monster Hunter and Resident Evils. But people are going to keep saying this, no matter what. I for one, am a Nintendo fan and though I wish they could have done more, my disappointment with them is not so big as to call their stance towards me this gen as "couldn't care less" or "abandonment." What do you think about this? Am I the only exception to your judgment as to how they treat their "hardcore" fans?
Damned if you do damned if you don't situation.
Cygnus X-1
Member
That's impossible. So many crazy rumors on Wii U, but this is really stupid. Why should Nintendo make their next-gen less powerful than a 2006 tech? It doesn't make any sense. Even from an economic point of view.
The Wii was more powerful than the most powerful console of its last generation through, i.e. the Xbox.
Ok. This settles it. The article is dumb. We can see indeed how much is selling the Vita/PS3 combo.
The Wii was more powerful than the most powerful console of its last generation through, i.e. the Xbox.
Ok. This settles it. The article is dumb. We can see indeed how much is selling the Vita/PS3 combo.
Winnie the Pimp
Member
While it IS true that Nintendo seems to care LESS about the hardcore audience then they did many years ago(also because now they have the casual gamer to worry about), they still care ENOUGH for me to support them because they still make a couple wonderful games each gen that no one else can do quite like them.
tassletine
Member
There's no way this is true. It contradicts all the information we know, not only about the horsepower but also what the controller can do in conjunction with the main unit. The fact that the article mentions the vita being able to do more smacks of someone trying to promote Sony.
*remembers what he paid during N64 era*
Yes it is.
Nintendo cares about its hardcore fans, as much corporations 'care'. (That means they create products that cater to those fans). Hardware power probably not. Nintendo hardcore fans are going to get their console for Nintendo games even if their system is underpowered because Nintendo provides them the games they desire.
(I hope I am not misunderstanding what one means by hardcore fans. If you mean people who care a lot about graphics then Nintendo doesn't care about those fans).
(I hope I am not misunderstanding what one means by hardcore fans. If you mean people who care a lot about graphics then Nintendo doesn't care about those fans).
IrishNinja
Member
it is, but not with the better system, tragically.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Nintendo caters quite well to their 'hardcore fans'. Technology fans, not so much.
Cygnus X-1
Member
Just a question for tech GAF: at this point, using too much old CPU and GPU inside a new console, wouldn't bring the system to be more expensive rather than the opposite? Especially after 1-2 year on the market?
My reasoning is based on the fact that if Nintendo keeps using in the Wii U very old tech, the plants who produce this CPU and GPU will produce almost just for Nintendo, since it is reasonable to expect that other companies will already produce better tech for their systems. So no-one will be using so old chips anymore and Nintendo will have to pay to keep plants producing this kind of tech quite entirely.
So, again, it doesn't make any sense to me.
My reasoning is based on the fact that if Nintendo keeps using in the Wii U very old tech, the plants who produce this CPU and GPU will produce almost just for Nintendo, since it is reasonable to expect that other companies will already produce better tech for their systems. So no-one will be using so old chips anymore and Nintendo will have to pay to keep plants producing this kind of tech quite entirely.
So, again, it doesn't make any sense to me.
With Wii games? Yes. With GC games? Best hoping for a GC games on their VC service.
tassletine
Member
I'd also like to say that developers can talk a lot of crap and some of them don't even understand the tech. If they're getting grips with the system it could just be someone airing their frustrations about one particular area.
A close friend of mine when asked how powerful the 3DS was, told me it was as powerful as a Dreamcast.
A close friend of mine when asked how powerful the 3DS was, told me it was as powerful as a Dreamcast.
Nope. The gpus the 360 and ps3 were based off were obsolete 2 years later, and they are still in production. Entire factories are built specifically for these console cpus and gpus.
NinjaBoiX
Member
As in right the way back? Like the Wii was? That would be so awesome, NES, SNES, N64, Cube, Wii and Wii U in one box!
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
And it has served them well this gen, hasn't it? From a financial point of view, I mean. And whatever "hardcore" (God I hate this term so much) fans or gamers might think, financial situation is an extremely important aspect of a gaming company in order to sustain itself, in order to continue existing. Take SEGA for example... if they do not have games like Mario and Sonic games to sustain their condition, how much worse would their situation be?
And if the 'double the development cost' thread is the truth, then many people should be afraid about what kind of worrying future the gaming world will suffer if all companies are so hard-bent on the more power more power more power mantra.
As if the current trend of gaming companies collapsing and bleeding are not worrisome enough.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Yeah, it's served them well. I mean, if you're a 'hardcore Nintendo fan' in the sense that you like tech savvy Nintendo, then of course you will be disappointed. But in terms of software Nintendo has been catering to the 'hardcore' pretty damn well, in my opinion. They've done some excellent work with their own IPs over the Wii, and appear to be doing the same with the 3DS. Hardcore Nintendo fans who love Nintendo games should be satisfied, and to my knowledge are.
And that is always going to be Nintendo's hook. The Wii U could be a goddamn PS2 with a Wii bolted on, and as long as the game design of their major IPs is up to scratch the hardcore Nintendo fans will eat it up. Nintendo knows this too. Super Mario Whatever is their get out of jail free card.
There's a part of me that will always be disappointed in Nintendo, if just for the lack of muscle under the hood. It sucked on the Wii and will suck on the Wii U. Same goes for online integration, and an open development environment with lots of customisation. But that disappointment comes from being primarily a PC gamer, where I get all these things.
Yet I'll still buy and love the Wii U because it scratches my Nintendo itch, just as the Wii did.
Well it plays Wii discs for sure, and I'm positive the VC will continue in some form. The only question is whether the GCN will be added to the VC (seems a no-brainer though).
EDIT: ... but you know, Nintendo.
I would if Nintendo did release games on other platforms.
Yep, you nailed the vicious cycle. As a Nintendo fan, the last several years have probably been some of its best, in terms of pure quality titles, but it's also frustrated with their (fiscally reasonable yet limiting) hardware and design choices at times. Which is further frustrated when you realize that the reality of the situation demands that they play it somewhat safe on that front.*
But... the games man.
*Except for online. There's no good excuse for them dragging their feet so much in that arena and they've left a lot of money on the table and hurt their brand power as a result.
Backfoggen
Banned
It always reminded me of early PC shader demos. Don't see why people would find that impressive.
What are 'technology fans' doing in the console market? Small, cheap mini PC's shouldn't really interest them. They need to buy a highend PC.
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