Microsoft Surface Tablet announced

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I thought I was positive about Surface before I watched the video of the event.... damn. Want one even more now.

I was totally ready to buy an iPad as soon as my budget allowed, but the existence of Surface Pro - a real computer in addition to a tablet - has totally changed my perspective.
 
How is this not a 'convertable ultrabook' exactly?
Because it's still a tablet, not a laptop, even if the kickstand and keyboard allow it to function similar to one.

Convertible ultrabooks are just regular laptops that with a hinge that enables you to put the keyboard under the screen. The Ideapad Yoga is a good example:

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He said "3rd generation i5", which would not be Ivy Bridge strictly speaking since Ivy Bridge is part of Sandy Bridge generation, but he also called it Ivy Bridge by name as well, so I think it's Ivy Bridge and he was just confused about which generation that falls under.

Unless of course its using an ivy bridge for the prototypes and its using haswell in its final form

If it will be using Haswell, great, but then I don't know why they announced the surface Pro a year before its ready to be released.

And in a year, convertable Ultrabooks with Haswell CPUs will be smaller as well, and probably eliminate the need for a surface pro type of device altogether.

Tablet is releasing 9 months from now. Surface RT is releasing in 4 months. Its a bit early for sure . Of course for all we know we could see Surface RT in late august/sept and then its really only 3 months or so away

Ultrabooks are nice , but this fits in with what i want more , Its more portable than an ultrabook as it doesn't have all the weight of a normal keyboard in there and since its only 10.6 inches it will use less power and weigh less than an ultra book which is normaly 13.3 inches
 
Because it's still a tablet, not a laptop, even if the kickstand and keyboard allow it to function similar to one.

Convertible ultrabooks are just regular laptops that with a hinge that enables you to put the keyboard under the screen. The Ideapad Yoga is a good example:

Bleh. I think this is actually the better design. That just strikes me as wishy-washy and prone to mechanical failure. Like the old IBM butterfly keyboards.


It's more of convertible mini desktop. Ultrabooks are laptops, this won't work on your lap :)

Let's be honest, scorching your lap with a 'laptop' isn't something most people actually do very much these days. The name is holdover from the era when computers didn't get very hot.
 
The Yoga strikes me as a really damn good tablet/laptop design..... totally cockblocked by Surface.
 
I wonder how long it'll be before someone creates a dock for the Surface Pro. USB, power, and DisplayPort are all on the same side so it's certainly pretty likely to happen at some point.
 
The more I think about the pro the more I get excited.

Using Photoshop directly on the screen and I can not wait for touch screen Starcraft 2.
 
Well everyone is going by the fact that MS is saying the Pro is going to cost what the typical ultrabook costs, and the average entry level i5 ivy bridge ultrabook pricing is around $1000. If MS was going to shock people and undercut that by a lot they wouldn't have compared pricing to ultra books and they would have revealed it then and there.

Even if Pro is pricier other hybrids won't have to be. AMD's versions of ultrabooks will be starting from 500$
 
Let's be honest, scorching your lap with a 'laptop' isn't something most people actually do very much these days. The name is holdover from the era when computers didn't get very hot.
You need to get laptops with better cooling :)
Still, Surface is simply not notebook-like in design.
 
I wonder how long it'll be before someone creates a dock for the Surface Pro. USB, power, and DisplayPort are all on the same side so it's certainly pretty likely to happen at some point.
i'm sure microsoft has a whole line of accessories for this thing.
 
You need to get laptops with better cooling :)
Still, Surface is simply not notebook-like in design.

Eh, if there's something to cool there's something to burn your balls off. I haven't used a laptop in years that never got hot on the bottom, and that definitely includes several macs (the supposed best).

And I disagree. It's a pretty fundamentally different *take* on notebook design, but it basically is one. At least the pro. I, frankly, think this is more the future than either the ipad or these twisty overly hinge-y things.
 
There's a separate Mail App though right for Windows RT?

I don't think there will be a mail application for the desktop, but Microsoft has a mail app for Metro UI. Of course other developers can create their own mail apps, too. And there's always webmail (which can be pinned to the start screen).
 
I don't think there will be a mail application for the desktop, but Microsoft has a mail app for Metro UI. Of course other developers can create their own mail apps, too. And there's always webmail (which can be pinned to the start screen).

I'm sure Outlook will continue on the desktop if you really need a Microsoft desktop mail experience.
 
Eh, if there's something to cool there's something to burn your balls off. I haven't used a laptop in years that never got hot on the bottom, and that definitely includes several macs (the supposed best).

And I disagree. It's a pretty fundamentally different *take* on notebook design, but it basically is one. At least the pro. I, frankly, think this is more the future than either the ipad or these twisty overly hinge-y things.

I haven't been following the entire conversation, but are you saying the Pro is more notebook than tablet?
 
Eh, if there's something to cool there's something to burn your balls off. I haven't used a laptop in years that never got hot on the bottom, and that definitely includes several macs (the supposed best).

And I disagree. It's a pretty fundamentally different *take* on notebook design, but it basically is one. At least the pro. I, frankly, think this is more the future than either the ipad or these twisty overly hinge-y things.
Meh, I just don't see it. You could just as well call small all in one a notebook.

Holding laptop on a lap is the most natural way to use it. THat's why they make such great mobile computers. With surface you will have to go and find a table, which kind of defeats the purpose of laptop.
Also Macs being supposed best? In temperature? There's a lot of good things you can say about Macbooks designs, but this isn't one of them. THey are famous for getting very hot.

And even if you're afraid of temperatures..that's the beauty of it, with hybrid notebooks like ASUS Transformer Boook there's nothing to get hot there, as all internals are inside the screen, while keyboard only has additional battery in it.
 
Surface: PC makers offer no comment as reports conflict on when Microsoft gave them the news
Microsoft's debut of the Surface family of tablets wowed on several levels yesterday, not the least of which is the fact that Redmond will be moving into direct competition with some of the hardware partners it relied upon to build the dominance of Windows. Acer and Lenovo have both shown off Windows 8 tablets in recent weeks, with Dell, HP, and others expected to follow. Microsoft's first-party option now has the potential to upset what has been a stable relationship between hardware maker and software provider. We reached out to Microsoft's partners for their response, and found them quite reluctant to comment on the situation.

HP and Acer declined to offer statements on Microsoft's product plans or its implications for the Windows 8 tablet market. Dell, however, noted that Microsoft was "an important partner" for the company — and that it would be delivering Windows 8 tablets of its own later in the year. Lenovo toed the same line, though a company representative did state that its selection of Android and Windows-based tablets put it in a "very strong position" to win "against all comers."

Meanwhile, a report from Reuters claims that many PC manufacturers were kept "in the dark" about Surface. Citing anonymous sources, the report claims that the earliest they had gotten word was last Friday, and furthermore said that Acer and Asustek first heard the news from the conference itself. However, an earlier Bloomberg story specifically cites Asustek as being one of the manufacturers who had received early notice. Spokesperson Nick Wu told Bloomberg that "Our management did learn about that in a later stage." That matches up with what Steve Ballmer himself told us in a brief interview on the day of the event.

When exactly manufacturers learned about Surface is one thing, what they think of it now is quite another. Even though the companies we reached out to universally declined to provide any comment on Surface itself, we expect Ballmer's prediction that OEMs would "opine" will come true soon enough. In fact, it may be starting already, with Digitimes reporting that Acer founder Stan Shih doesn't see Microsoft's hardware intentions as genuine at all. Instead, Shih reportedly feels the Surface is an effort to encourage other manufacturers to produce Windows 8 tablets, and that he expects Microsoft to bow out of the tablet hardware race once Windows 8 gains momentum. We'll see if other manufacturers agree in the months to come.
Microsoft own-brand tablet PCs a ploy to drive Windows 8 adoption, says Acer founder
While Microsoft's unveiling of two own-brand tablet PCs has surprised the supply chain in Taiwan and brought worries on PC vendors, Acer founder Stan Shih has commented that Microsoft has no real intention to sell own-brand tablet PCs and the offering is an ploy to boost adoption of Windows 8.
Microsoft hopes that marketing its own-brand tablet PCs will encourage vendors to offer Windows 8 tablet PCs and thereby help expand market demand for the product line, Shih analyzed. Once the purpose is realized, Microsoft will not offer more models, Shih said. Vendors adopting Windows 8 should interpret Microsoft's intentions positively, as they will benefit from Microsoft's marketing, Shih indicated.
Microsoft has no reason to sell hardware because such sales bring much less profit than licensing its software products, according to Shih. In addition, Microsoft will face many difficulties marketing tablet PCs on its own, including production management, distribution, and after-sales maintenance service, Shih indicated.
With these tablets only being sold through the microsoft store (retail, online) and microsoft traditionally only wanting to license the software i could see this hardware being a one time thing.
 
I haven't been following the entire conversation, but are you saying the Pro is more notebook than tablet?

No. I'm saying that I see it as a meaningful between point of those two things, similar to if different in design to the convertible ultrabooks. Except less fragile.
 
I don't think OEMs have much to be angry about just yet.

From what Microsoft said at the event Surface might only be sold in Microsoft stores and online and it's not even clear whether it will be sold outside of the US or not. Additionally the pro version will only launch three months after Windows 8, i.e. after OEMs launch their Intel tablets.
If they have such a limited distribution, it won't sell big numbers. It will be comparable to google's nexus phones.

Furthermore, I think OEMs are the reason Microsoft hasn't announced a price yet and said it will be competitive with OEM models. If Microsoft wanted to undercut the price of comparable tablets they certainly could, but they won't. They will probably wait till all the prices for the other tablets are known and price theirs just as high.

The absolutely biggest and most important reason OEMs shouldn't feel too threatened is, that there is more than enough room for them to differentiate. Their products will be available in all sizes, with all kinds of convertible/dock setups. While the Surface RT is pretty amazing, there will also be some very compelling products from other manufacturers. For some people a more Ultrabook-looking convertible with a pen might be better.
 
The first Surface Pro Hackintosh is something that would be relevant to my interests. You know it won't take long.

I know I'm late, but I had already thought of this and dismissed it. What use is OS X on a touch enabled device. Wouldn't anyone who wants that be happier overall with a MBA?

That being said, I think the components inside this and the MBA would be very similar to each other, so hackintoshing it could be entirely possible.

Edit: D'oh, you said all of the above on the next page.
 
Surface: PC makers offer no comment as reports conflict on when Microsoft gave them the news
Microsoft own-brand tablet PCs a ploy to drive Windows 8 adoption, says Acer founder

With these tablets only being sold through the microsoft store (retail, online) and microsoft traditionally only wanting to license the software i could see this hardware being a one time thing.

as a potential purchaser, this...I find very problematic.

Part of my thinking when buying a piece of computer equipment is about what kind of service and support I'm going to get...what kind of 3rd party accessories I can look forward to...what kind of future the product has. If the surface has only one or two generations in it before Microsoft stops making them, what kind of long-term support can I expect? What kind of investment will accessory makers put into it? How difficult will replacement parts be to find in a few years?

I know if I go with Dell/HP/Lenovo/Asus/Acer, those aren't going to be issues because those companies make hardware for a living and will continue to for the foreseeable future (well, with the exception of HP).

I hope Microsoft comments on that idea, because I don't like it. If they're going to do it, keep doing it. Make the benchmark version of a Windows Tablet. Something for all OEMs to aspire to and hopefully surpass. And if they surpass it, good. It helps Windows. But don't do a one-time push. Fuck that.


I don't think OEMs have much to be angry about just yet.

From what Microsoft said at the event Surface might only be sold in Microsoft stores and online and it's not even clear whether it will be sold outside of the US or not. Additionally the pro version will only launch three months after Windows 8, i.e. after OEMs launch their Intel tablets.
If they have such a limited distribution, it won't sell big numbers. It will be comparable to google's nexus phones.

Furthermore, I think OEMs are the reason Microsoft hasn't announced a price yet and said it will be competitive with OEM models. If Microsoft wanted to undercut the price of comparable tablets they certainly could, but they won't. They will probably wait till all the prices for the other tablets are known and price theirs just as high.

The absolutely biggest and most important reason OEMs shouldn't feel too threatened is, that there is more than enough room for them to differentiate. Their products will be available in all sizes, with all kinds of convertible/dock setups. While the Surface RT is pretty amazing, there will also be some very compelling products from other manufacturers. For some people a more Ultrabook-looking convertible with a pen might be better.
fair points. but I do have a few bones to pick.

If you look at the OEM offerings, most of them are using the lowest resolution of screen, or Atom processor, or don't appear to be designed as well. And now they only have a few months to get their shit together if they're going to charge a good bit of coin for them. Meanwhile, MS has a bigass press conference to announce their shit. Everyone knows MS has a tablet now...and it stands to reason that many will be okay with waiting for that one if the competitors don't show up with their game faces on and better products than they've shown to date.

Nobody wants to buy the decidedly inferior products at the same prices if they know a superior option exists. That means the entire $1000 range is on notice.

Lastly, these aren't the days when online only sales were a problem. The Kindle has been online-only for a long time and they've enjoyed good sales. Apple sells out of their new shit online in hours. I don't know if this tablet can generate that kind of energy...but they can definitely hurt OEMs in the sort term. I for damn sure will be waiting for theirs to launch before buying one.
 
Well the signal is it will be a more minor release since they will sell it only in Microsoft stores and not everywhere as is the case with tablets like iPad and Kindle Fire (and assumingly OEM Windows 8 tablets).
 
Well the signal is it will be a more minor release since they will sell it only in Microsoft stores and not everywhere as is the case with tablets like iPad and Kindle Fire (and assumingly OEM Windows 8 tablets).

Didn't Google say they were only going to sell the first nexus phone contract free on their website? They say that up front to be nice but ultimately if Best Buy come along and say they want them, MS isn't going to say no.

I think the Acer guy has the right idea, more people are talking about Windows 8 adoption today because MS announced some hardware, ultimately though these people are sold on the idea MS put across, not the device itself, so if OEMs match the experience and the price, as they tend to be able to, then this will only have a positive impact on them.
 
109 pages? This thing made an impression, huh? Seems like most are good ones, some bad. People are talking though and that's what MS wants.

Can't wait to get my hands on one of these things to give it whirl.
 
I thought I was positive about Surface before I watched the video of the event.... damn. Want one even more now.

I was totally ready to buy an iPad as soon as my budget allowed, but the existence of Surface Pro - a real computer in addition to a tablet - has totally changed my perspective.
I really fancied an iPad, but Apple's awkward software (iTunes basically) and still no flash has ended my interest. The app store is still very tempting, but I'd have one or the other, not both, and design and apps are the only factors in iPad's favour for me.

This Surface looks fantastic though. I think I'll grab the basic model. Yay, finally on the tablet bandwagon!
 
I really fancied an iPad, but Apple's awkward software (iTunes basically) and still no flash has ended my interest. The app store is still very tempting, but I'd have one or the other, not both, and design and apps are the only factors in iPad's favour for me.

This Surface looks fantastic though. I think I'll grab the basic model. Yay, finally on the tablet bandwagon!

You literally never have to use iTunes if you so desire.

I am just going to ignore the Flash thing because at this point that is downright silly.
 
Considering things like Microsoft Signature program, the push for performance in the jump from Vista to 7; I genuinely think Microsoft are over OEMs bringing down their software with bloatware/crapware/poor optimization and are looking to mirror what Apple do (or at least what Google do with the Nexus program)
 
What I want to know is why the Pro doesn't come with Office.

MS Speak: We expect most pro customers will already have office licenses therefore we can not include it and pass on the savings!


Real Speak: They have to include it with RT because Google docs scares the shit out of them, but they aren't going to turn one of their most profitable businesses into a free-for-all product.



To be fair they are probably going to get into anti-competition law suits over having it in RT anyway.
 
MS Speak: We expect most pro customers will already have office licenses therefore we can not include it and pass on the savings!


Real Speak: They have to include it with RT because Google docs scares the shit out of them, but they aren't going to turn one of their most profitable businesses into a free-for-all product.



To be fair they are probably going to get into anti-competition law suits over having it in RT anyway.

Why ? MS has almost no tablet market share and almost no mobile phone share . So how can they get in trouble.

Esp if apple was allowed to leverage the itunes store , later the app store with each new product or google was allowed to bundle their search in with each andriod device.
 
Why ? MS has almost no tablet market share and almost no mobile phone share . So how can they get in trouble.

Esp if apple was allowed to leverage the itunes store , later the app store with each new product or google was allowed to bundle their search in with each andriod device.

Microsoft's anti-trust troubles came with requiring all manufacturers to include IE.

Apple is the manufacturer of all iOS devices.
Google Search is not on all Android products.

Microsoft is bundling it on all RT devices, even ones that aren't manufactured by them.
 
The main problem with the Surface Pro is that it's going to have to compete directly against the iPad 4 both in news cycles, consumer interest, and the product in of itself. They might have justified a higher price point if it had came out this year. Next year though, that keyboard is going to be less of a deal when Apple shows their own version. I no idea how Apple is going to deal or not deal with the kickstand though.
 
Microsoft's anti-trust troubles came with requiring all manufacturers to include IE.

Apple is the manufacturer of all iOS devices.
Google Search is not on all Android products.

Microsoft is bundling it on all RT devices, even ones that aren't manufactured by them.

um... no . MS's anti trust troubles came because they intergrated IE into the OS and forbade oems to instal other browsers.

Apple may make all ios devices but they still wont allow other web browsers not based of theirs on their market place. They also continue to deny app store entry to products that directly compete with them.

These are all anti competive moves that apple can pull off while having dominate market share in multiple markets.
 
The main problem with the Surface Pro is that it's going to have to compete directly against the iPad 4 both in news cycles, consumer interest, and the product in of itself. They might have justified a higher price point if it had came out this year. Next year though, that keyboard is going to be less of a deal when Apple shows their own version. I no idea how Apple is going to deal or not deal with the kickstand though.

1) Ipad 4 and Surface Pro are not competing with each other unless apple ports OSX to the ipad. People considering the surface pro are not gong to pick up an arm device. The PRO will compete with Apple's notebooks

2)Perhaps MS has taken a page out of Apples playbook and have patented the hell out of everything they've added to the surface. No one is ever allowed to make a keyboard thinner than the surface one eva !
 
The main problem with the Surface Pro is that it's going to have to compete directly against the iPad 4 both in news cycles, consumer interest, and the product in of itself. They might have justified a higher price point if it had came out this year. Next year though, that keyboard is going to be less of a deal when Apple shows their own version. I no idea how Apple is going to deal or not deal with the kickstand though.

This seems like a problem for Surface RT also. They get 6 months to establish a foothold, then this year's iPad becomes last year's iPad and ratchets the price/performance floor down a level. Maybe that's enough time, I don't know but that's a tight window and they only get one shot. This thing better be good.
 
um... no . MS's anti trust troubles came because they intergrated IE into the OS and forbade oems to instal other browsers.

That's what I said.
Apple may make all ios devices but they still wont allow other web browsers not based of theirs on their market place. They also continue to deny app store entry to products that directly compete with them.

These are all anti competive moves that apple can pull off while having dominate market share in multiple markets.
That is irrelevant to a discussion about what you can bundle with your OS and require manufacturers of your devices to include.
 
1) Ipad 4 and Surface Pro are not competing with each other unless apple ports OSX to the ipad. People considering the surface pro are not gong to pick up an arm device. The PRO will compete with Apple's notebooks

They are in businesses. iPad is gaining traction for businesses but is still rather limited in its use. Surface, even the arm version, will be a thousand times better there than an iPad can be.
 
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