RoninChaos
Member
Not to kick a hornet's nest, but at least MS DID something. Sony's never acknowledged any hardware issues. EVER.
Penny Arcade: the ugly, profitable details about Xbox Live dashboard ads
- Thread starter Sean
- Start date
Not to kick a hornet's nest, but at least MS DID something. Sony's never acknowledged any hardware issues. EVER.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
Not sarcasm at all
Like I just don't see the point in discussing this stuff. We're talking about ads on a video game OS. I think it's trivial, I guess some people on here don't. And I don't care how obvious of a point it is but they're a business...
BTW I'm not a corporate apologist, I don't even own a 360 anymore. I just don't care
PedroLumpy
Member
The system works when businesses worry about making money, and consumers worry about getting good products/services.
Don't worry about defending/making excuses for businesses, they can take care of themselves.
Mr.Wreckless
Banned
The overwhelming majority of people do not cycle between playing 15-20 different downloadable games on the 360. This isnt like Steam where all the games are DD.
And actually you dont see them, you press RB a couple of times and its just a blur.
Im starting to agree with others that the people who have the most problem with the ads are the people who dont spend much time with the 360 to begin with.
Every time i use my Blu-Ray player i see 2-3 ads. Just today I watched Chronicle and there were 3 ads placed before the main menu of the movie.
EatinOlives
Member
What you're failing to understand is that each of those sentences are classic strawman apologist arguments that are thrown around all over the net that are so devoid of any substance they're always laughed out of a topic. It's even worse you strung them up one after another without any hint of sarcasm.
Depriving yourself of good games over an advertisement isn't a good thing. I don't pay for live often, but when there's an exclusive I want to play online I'll buy a month just to play it. It's not that big of a deal in my opinion.
I'll also chime in about PSN. Yes it's free, but the quality of it isn't to the level of XBL. Whenever I play my PS3, I feel like PSN was tacked on last minute, versus XBL which feels like a core component of the system.
But with that said, paying for XBL should mean that I'm getting dedicated servers. I'm tired of this matchmaking crap. Tired of having to wait to find a new host because the previous host decided to leave.
searching lobbies isnt the great bastion of online gaming that people seem to act like. hosts boot players for no good reason and they will even do it in the middle of a match if you are winning. there is also still waiting in lobbies because they want to eat a sandwich before starting. matchmaking eleminates all that dumb crap. even Blizzard knows it and put matchmaking into Starcraft 2. if people want private games, xbox live players can easily do so with the party system.
rohlfinator
Member
That would describe me, except you've got the causation reversed. I've switched to buying most of my multiplatform games on Steam partly because I don't have to wade through Microsoft's terrible interface (and also because they're often cheaper and always have free online play). I pretty much only use my 360 for the occasional exclusive, and even then I tend to avoid spending any more time than I have to in the dash.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
I am not a corporate apologist...jesus
I think you're taking this a little too seriously. "laughed out of a topic"? More like, I think this is an inconsequential issue and don't see the point of getting up and arms about it
Again, I'm not defending MS at all. I'm just saying, don't like it, don't buy it. That's it. I think we can both agree on that. No one is forcing anyone to buy this stuff
I don't get it man, this is like talking to a brick wall. What's good to the average person is much different than the average gaffer. I don't even know what I'm reading here. Live is very popular so it must be a good service for a lot of people
I'm a PC player, I know how things can get bad for dedi-servers if the owner of the server sucks. However I rarely encounter that.
But Sony/Microsoft owned dedi-servers could work out. No game pausing because someone else quits. 24/7 uptime, and a bunch of other benefits.
IIRC, you can get booted from a matchmaking game in some games that allow majority vote. Some people start those for the sole purpose of being a jerk. So the argument of "bad server owners" kind of equates to that in matchmaking.
Why not give the option of both matchmaking and dedi-servers? It couldn't hurt.
And while I'm responding to these points, I don't really see how anything other than matchmaking could work for SC2. It's not a "jump-in jump-out" kind of game.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Although most 360 owners agree that XBLA is the best thing about the platform.
I'm very disapointed only one poster has come out of this topic with a corporate shill tag. One of the biggest managed to lose theirs somehow too.
Mr.Wreckless
Banned
XBLA is great. But my point has nothing to do with the quality or number of games for the service. Its the nature of how those games are played.
The guy i quoted scoffed at the 10 game limit on the quick play menu as if that means people only have a small library of games. My point is that at any given time people on the 360 arent switching between 15 digital games. More than likely there are 2 or 3 that people play actively during a period of time, after which they move on to something else. Then you will have maybe 2 mainstays that are your favorites so they will stay on the list.
Having your 10 most recently played games available right there on the main page is more than enough for the majority of players. You wont need to scroll over to the games tab and search through your complete gaming library that often.
BruiserBear
Banned
That would be completely wrong fo me. I play my 360 more than I play my PS3. I bought the 360 the day it came out, have paid for Gold since, have replaced my launch system with two black slim units, and I buy almost all of my multi platform games on the 360.
Glorified G
Member
I would too if the big part of the Halo 4 experience wasn't contingent on spending $50/year on a subscription fee. That's my biggest problem with the 360 besides the ads.
Speedymanic
Banned
Don't mistake my position for that of a corporate shill or an apologist. My position is one of a realist. Someone who sees people claiming that XBL is full of ads, it plays host to more ads that related content, etc and just can't believe the hyperbolic fluff he's reading.
I see people claiming that XBL is a sea of ads. These people are wrong, there's no ifs or buts, they are demonstrability wrong.
When I turn my 360 on, as I did not 5 minutes ago, I was greeted by one ad. ONE. Not two, or three or more as people claim. ONE AD. The rest of the windows were all content related promotional material, such as a Summer of Arcade video or a info blast informing of the current 50% sale on MGS games.
That's the reality, that's what the vast, vast majority of users see when they turn on their consoles. The picture that people love to quote is itself proof that the service isn't full of ads. There's one actual ad, the others are related to content that's available on the device. These aren't ads in the traditional sense or what most people think of when someone mentions ads.
Quoting me definitions from dictionaries is irrelevant, when related content to a device is promoted, it's not an ad n the traditional sense. Promotional material related to platform cannot be considered advertising.
CosmicQueso
Member
If the ads on the dashboard do not cause subscriptions to fall, and if the math shows there's a reasonable chance that MS is making more money with the ads than without, then the market has spoken. The ads will stay and are acceptable to more consumers than not.
None of the other hyperbole matters.
None of the other hyperbole matters.
those are still ads dude, no matter how you spin it
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Nobody is mistaking your position as a corporate shill / apologist.
travisbickle
Member
MS had their cake and ate it too with the 360.
I wonder if they'll try it again now that people are more aware of how companies can make money through online adverts.
I wonder if they'll try it again now that people are more aware of how companies can make money through online adverts.
Speedymanic
Banned
A sub-section of gamers who spend a lot of them time on gaming forums are aware of how much money they are making though ads.
The userbase in general isn't and that's why the situation isn't going to change. It was never to change anyway, even if this news was plastered all over CNN, FOX, etc.
People have better things to do than worry about how much money MS is making off ads, so long as their console works as intended for what they want it to do, that's all they care about and ever will care about.
But if I get this straight, by only BOOTING UP your 360 you're already "seeing" the ad, thus giving money to MS. Right?
EDIT: I think the last time I paid my Xbox Live was 2009. Don't remember. Will only pay again because of Halo 4. Today every game that I wanna play online I buy for PS3.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Yes, I think basic online play will be free on every other gaming capable platform in the foreseeable future.
And if it's not, fuck console gaming tbh.
Speedymanic
Banned
Ads will be everywhere bar Nintendo's online service.
free, p2p online play will be available to all on the nextbox, PS4 and U. dedicated servers and possibly cloud gaming are the new features both Sony and especially MS will monetize.
charging for p2p gaming is a relic of a bygone era for MS, it won't happen next gen.
Again, I don't understand where you are coming from with this nonsense.
I don't see why anyone would sub to XBL if the multiplayer is free aside from the occasional netflix streamer who is too incompetent to buy a device on which netflix streaming isn't behind a paywall. And what kind of "cloud gaming" will microsoft monetize exactly? Examples?
People pay the price for XBL because it's mandatory for online play. The second it won't, subscriber numbers will plummet.
Yeah I don't get his reasoning either. If Sony pass up the chance to charge even $30 a year for online play on PS4 they're mad, it's throwing money away.
This is what bothers me the most by faaaaar.
RukusProvider
Banned
The live dashboard has one non serivce related ad on the page. The rest is content available on the service. With the amont of content that is available on the service, I rather have it be presented to me vs keeping up with different sites and threads to keep upto date.
As for skipping, hit the guide button and you're set or use search to find exactly what you want. But hey, where's the fun in that? You can even launch straight to disk!
As for skipping, hit the guide button and you're set or use search to find exactly what you want. But hey, where's the fun in that? You can even launch straight to disk!
Speedymanic
Banned
I've already explained my reasoning.
And you're wrong if you think subscriptions will plummet. They might plummet now, but next gen p2p gaming will be replaced by dedicated servers and other features, sub levels will stay steady or increase.
People don't jus pay to play online, they pay because the console offers a considerably more streamlined and consumer friendly experience compared to their competitors.
People have the option of free online gaming with the PS3 and yet they still, overwhelmingly choose to pay for gold. That tells me that people aren't just paying for online gaming, they are paying as the overall experience is better and worth paying for.
Speedymanic
Banned
You're making the same mistake as him by not thinking ahead. You're stuck in current gen thinking.
Think ahead, think about what the next big thing will be. Why are Epic and EA both offering dedicated server gaming to fans of their AAA series?
They know the tide is changing, p2p gaming is a relic and one that won't be enough for the majority of gamers next gen. gamers will demand less lag, more options, more freedom, more customisation and that only comes with dedicated servers.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Speedymanic
Banned
Multiple accounts and comparing free accounts to those who actually pay?
C'mon. Think before posting such a flawed and ridiculous example.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
So.... you have numbers right?
You're not just asserting random bullshit as facts?
I mean, to state overwhelmingly more people pay for Live than play for free on PSN means something like 2:1 ratio or higher of people playing.
I'd love to see those numbers, because it flies in the face of common sense.
Speedymanic
Banned
We'll see. I think I'm right, so much so that I'm happy to put 50 bucks on the table for anyone who wants to take the bet.
50 bucks that within 6 months of the nextbox launching, p2p gaming will be free.
Ravensmash
Member
I have no issue with dashboard ads.
I'm in the UK and besides an occasional non-related ad, all of them are some way linked to either a promotion, a feature of Xbox Live or an upcoming game (with link to trailer).
And these take up a single small square in the corner.
Now, if I signed in tomorrow and saw numerous ads for Burger King/Coca Cola all spread out on my dashboard or interrupting my navigation then I'll start to question the sense behind it, but as of now it's a non issue for me.
I'm in the UK and besides an occasional non-related ad, all of them are some way linked to either a promotion, a feature of Xbox Live or an upcoming game (with link to trailer).
And these take up a single small square in the corner.
Now, if I signed in tomorrow and saw numerous ads for Burger King/Coca Cola all spread out on my dashboard or interrupting my navigation then I'll start to question the sense behind it, but as of now it's a non issue for me.
Glorified G
Member
So do you have any facts to back your assertion, yes or no?
CoffeeJanitor
Member
Photolysis
Banned
Er, no.
Dedicated servers are increasingly being marginalised as the average quality of internet connections goes up. Some games with massive player counts will still need them (mostly because the number crunching and traffic would take up so many resources that you wouldn't be able to play the game yourself at the same time), but not every game works with so many players.
Latest numbers available Xbox free vs Xbox Gold ratio, anno 2010, which could be goggled easily - just for us all:
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/11/11/microsoft-xbox-live-gold-subscribers-use-service-3-hours-per-da/
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/11/11/microsoft-xbox-live-gold-subscribers-use-service-3-hours-per-da/
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
That article states there are around 12 million Gold users; PSN hack reports put the number of affected accounts at 70 million.
So for there to be 'overwhelmingly' more gold subscribers than free PSN gamesplayers, PSN is looking at soemthing like only 1 in 10 PSN account owners ever playing online.
Which sounds like a huge steaming pile of horseshit.
Liberty4all
Banned
This more than anything is why Sony will keep online free. MS got lucky this round in part by having a year start. Personally I think they are going to have to compete alot harder next gen.
BabeSlayer
Member
Capitalism working. I love it.
Know I'm gonna get some ire for this but I like the ads, they are generally tailored towards me showing me options for other entertainment I might enjoy. I like that I appreciate that. I've never been turned off by their adds. The only time it really bothers me is when it slows down the overall performance of the Xbox, that's annoying but technical issues aside I like the adds. I like seeing Microsoft making money because that means they will continue to make awesome products, I hope Sony sticks around, an follows suit so they can provide good competition. I also hope Apple jumps into the scene, more competition always brings great things. As stated above capitalism working and I love it
Know I'm gonna get some ire for this but I like the ads, they are generally tailored towards me showing me options for other entertainment I might enjoy. I like that I appreciate that. I've never been turned off by their adds. The only time it really bothers me is when it slows down the overall performance of the Xbox, that's annoying but technical issues aside I like the adds. I like seeing Microsoft making money because that means they will continue to make awesome products, I hope Sony sticks around, an follows suit so they can provide good competition. I also hope Apple jumps into the scene, more competition always brings great things. As stated above capitalism working and I love it
Speedymanic
Banned
You're comparing actual accounts where people pay money to free accounts. I have 6 accounts on my PS3, one of them is active but Sony counts all 6. That's flawed. I have 3 accounts on my 360, but MS only count the one that's active.
The current number for active XBL accounts is 40m. Note, that's active accounts. Not just accounts. So yeah, based on the info available to all via google and some extrapolation, it's pretty clear that people are overwhelmingly choosing to pay for gold compared to gaming for free on PS3.
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/Press/2012/Apr12/04-24XBLiveAddsPR.aspx
Iinteresting fact, in Jan '11, SEN/PSN hasn't turned a profit. That's according to Kaz.
MightyHedgehog
Member
They got "lucky" with a planned launch and a service they started years earlier on their previous platform? Sony wouldn't have done even as much as they have without MS schooling them all generation in the online arena (and MS wouldn't have pushed as hard without Valve and Apple out there breaking ice in front of them). On consoles, Sony has played catchup to MS all gen, copying everything they could and spinning everything they couldn't due to their patchwork foundation. And we see how Ninty didn't even bother with Wii despite clearly better alternatives in the market, so console online services and features would still very likely be in the AOL-era ghetto of thinking without MS pushing it there.
HawksWinStanley
Member
Yeah to be honest I haven't really noticed an influx of ads since the original dashboard and the few that are on there now don't bother me at all. I'm not sure why people are getting so upset about this, if anything I feel better knowing advertisers are getting screwed harder than we are.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Playstation doesn't have Halo, Gears of War, or Forza. If you want to enjoy these games online you are FORCED to pay a subscription fee for Gold. If you think anyone outside of diehard gamers would still pay for Gold if there was a free online option you're out of your mind.
RukusProvider
Banned
Majority or the user base is playing 3rd party games and paying for gold. Outside of the gamers, it would seem that the entire family is now using the 360 as a media device as the media consumption hours are surpassing the gaming time totals.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
You're really reaching here when you could just admit that you have no idea how many people regularly use the PSN, how many accounts are active, and how MS determines what active means (has bought something? has logged in once? Is a sub account on a family account? etc)
Sony released a PR that "90%" of their accounts returned to the PSN after the hack, so it is just as likely that any accounts that returned can be considered as 'active' - I can't believe that having 6 accounts is in any way a normal thing for the PSN.
Even for the sake of argument, assuming every single PSN user has 2 accounts, thats still 35 million users vs 40 million which is a far cry from 'overwhemingly more'.