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[HoosTrax]

Stuff like leaning is still possible based on the roll value, but head movement tracking is not reliable enough with just the tracker (you'd need an additional optical system).

Optical system meaning something like the camera that's used in TrackIR, which tracks the movement of the three dots on your head?

I hope for a "premium" version of this HMD that's able to incorporate something like that. Being able to lean forward, side-to-side, and up/down inside a cockpit is surprisingly useful. (Leaning forward to see the cockpit instruments more clearly, sitting up to see over the instruments better for landings). Making that integrate so that I wouldn't have to wear a HMD + Headphones + additional head tracker would be great. Although I don't know what kind of patent issues with NaturalPoint would arise.

 

[Durante]

"Leaning" forward, as long as there is a change in angle involved, should still work. The game (or driver) just needs to extrapolate the head movement from the angle and a simple neck model, that should work pretty well for most use cases.

 

[isamu]

How does this Oculus one compare to this beast?
http://www.inition.co.uk/3D-Technologies/sensics-pisight-hmds

 

[1-D_FTW]

Optical system meaning something like the camera that's used in TrackIR, which tracks the movement of the three dots on your head?

I hope for a "premium" version of this HMD that's able to incorporate something like that. Being able to lean forward, side-to-side, and up/down inside a cockpit is surprisingly useful. (Leaning forward to see the cockpit instruments more clearly, sitting up to see over the instruments better for landings). Making that integrate so that I wouldn't have to wear a HMD + Headphones + additional head tracker would be great. Although I don't know what kind of patent issues with NaturalPoint would arise.

I know it's beating a dead horse at this point, but if you're really interested in this, everyone owes it to themselves to watch the Carmack keynote. He spent a couple hours talking about it. And if you're a tech head like myself, you'll laugh a lot and spend the majority of the talk with a smile on your face. As for Track IR, he specifically mentioned what was good about it, and why it broke (and absolutely ruined things) under certain circumstances. Carmack has experimented with everything you can possibly think of.

 

[xptoxyz]

Looks awesome. It would be cool if this launched with the next Xbox.

The Double Fine guy was more serious than he usually is in this video.

What? Who? Where?

 

[Durante]

How does this Oculus one compare to this beast?
http://www.inition.co.uk/3D-Technologies/sensics-pisight-hmds

Well, it's worse in mostly everything (Except for latency and game integration).

The Sensics piSight line of HMDs starts at $27500 for the budget model. You can get almost 100 Rifts for that.

 

[ido]

This has always been my dream HMD:

http://www.fakespacelabs.com/Wide5.html

 

[plc268]

Yes. Real life is 3d. I was making fun of him saying 3d causing him headaches.
Anyway. the 3d method being implemented here different than what is used by 3d tvs. It is a more natural method because each of your eyes gets a different image without relying on shutter or polarized glass. Those methods (especially shutter) causes headaches and eye strain for some people.
This is pretty similar to how we see things in real life.

Stereoscopic 3d in general gives me headaches, regardless of the way it's presented. Active shutter, polarized, and the 3ds do it the same way for me.

For me, it's mostly because I am left eye dominant. My vision is 20/20 in the left eye, and at best 20/60 corrected in the right eye. Because of that, most of my vision is from my left eye, and any forced stereoscopic displays cause headaches for me.

 

[TheExodu5]

This is far too exciting to not back. I'm in.

 

[Zaptruder]

I know it's beating a dead horse at this point, but if you're really interested in this, everyone owes it to themselves to watch the Carmack keynote. He spent a couple hours talking about it. And if you're a tech head like myself, you'll laugh a lot and spend the majority of the talk with a smile on your face. As for Track IR, he specifically mentioned what was good about it, and why it broke (and absolutely ruined things) under certain circumstances. Carmack has experimented with everything you can possibly think of.

The 2012 quakecon keynote? Do you have a link to it? Or the keynote that you're talking about?

 

[1-D_FTW]

The 2012 quakecon keynote? Do you have a link to it? Or the keynote that you're talking about?

It's the 2012 keynote. It was streamed live yesterday. I guess they usually upload it to youtube, but it seems it hasn't occurred yet. Worth waiting for though. It's good.

 

[majik13]

Yes. Real life is 3d. I was making fun of him saying 3d causing him headaches.
Anyway. the 3d method being implemented here different than what is used by 3d tvs. It is a more natural method because each of your eyes gets a different image without relying on shutter or polarized glass. Those methods (especially shutter) causes headaches and eye strain for some people.
This is pretty similar to how we see things in real life.

still doesnt matter, because it is fake 3d when compared to real life, it will still give people headaches, or eye strain because you brain has to retrain itself or trick itself to see this 3d, and this cause fatigue. mainly because there is no actual physical distance between the virtual objects , and thusly no change in focus, or depth of field, between the generated objects, it all exist on flat 2d screens still.

I believe there are about 10 or so factors our eyes and brain use to see natural 3d, judge distance, etc. Stereo displays only use 1 factor, parallax, to generate the 3d effect.

Regardless I am still jazzed about a fully encompassing VR environment like this. Hiope it takes off, and I enjoy the 3d of my 3ds. I personally don't get any strain or headaches.

 

[MickeyKnox]

ArmA 3 and by that time DayZ BETA using this will be a watershed moment in gaming.

 

[mrklaw]

Stereoscopic 3d in general gives me headaches, regardless of the way it's presented. Active shutter, polarized, and the 3ds do it the same way for me.

For me, it's mostly because I am left eye dominant. My vision is 20/20 in the left eye, and at best 20/60 corrected in the right eye. Because of that, most of my vision is from my left eye, and any forced stereoscopic displays cause headaches for me.

You tried a HMZ-t1 or other HMD with separate displays?

I believe there are about 10 or so factors our eyes and brain use to see natural 3d, judge distance, etc. Stereo displays only use 1 factor, parallax, to generate the 3d effect

Carmack talks about this,which is why he wants good translation/leaning sensing, so out get the side to side parallax between objects in the world as your head moves, and not just a simple rotational view.

 

[majik13]

Carmack talks about this,which is why he wants good translation/leaning sensing, so out get the side to side parallax between objects in the world as your head moves, and not just a simple rotational view.

yeah, that will help, that's 1 reason why I cant wait to try something like this.

 

[Ding]

Fuck it. I just kicked in for the entire $300. (I had pledged $10, yesterday.) I'm not a developer, but maybe I can provide some input along the way from a consumer perspective. Guinea pig style.

My eyesight has been pretty crappy since my (semi-botched) LASIK surgery, so I'll probably tolerate the low resolution pretty well. In-eye anti-aliasing, whoo!

 

[1-D_FTW]

First time I've ever seen the insides of the bad boy:

Conference starting:

http://www.own3d.tv/QuakeCon#&sort=date&view=list-channel&live=95671

 

[DieH@rd]

Quakecon VR speech begins now!
http://www.own3d.tv/QuakeCon

 

[Mindlog]

Thanks for the heads-uo.

 

[leca]

Think I missed the Quakecon VR speech, doh!

 

[DieH@rd]

One interesting thing that they said was that lenses force your eyes to FOCUS ON INFINITY. This create environment where you eyes are relaxed and you can play in extended sessions without problem. Also, shortsighted people will have easier time using device, in most cases without glasses/contacts.

 

[Durante]

That was a really interesting panel.

Short (bad) summary:

- A lot of talk about the relationship between VR and AR, the idea is that to get good AR you need to solve all the problems of VR and then additional ones on top of that. So VR is actually ready sooner.

- Discussion about why this hasn't happened 5 years ago, and why large electronics and existing VR companies didn't try to tackle the problem. The usual candidates are risk tradeoff, target audience questions, and incompatibility with existing business models.

- Palmer reiterated the point that you shouldn't see the kickstarter units as a final consumer product, with the expectations that go along with that. The goal is to get units into developers' hands.

- No support for glasses. The distance required for glasses makes them incompatible with the goal of providing a large FoV. People with moderate nearsightedness should be fine simply without glasses, for others the only readily available solution for the prototype unit are contact lenses.

- Input devices were also discussed, and the conclusion was that, while it's possible to combine VR with existing input methods and work well, it should also be possible to do better than that. All the participants are skeptical that any technology will be able to realistically encompass full body movement anytime soon.

- In terms of game support, both Abrash and Carmack tried VR with game types other than FPS, and they both agree that it's great for almost anything that uses a 3D camera, including third person and god games.

There was a lot more interesting stuff, but that's what was most relevant to the Rift.

 

[Durante]

One more thing:
Doom 4 will support the Rift

 

[leca]

Thanks Durante , Is fantastic that this got started right before Quakecon! Perfect platform and opportunity to focus on Rift.

 

[BlueTsunami]

The way I see it Kinect has gotten closer to what would work best with VR goggles considering the lack of intrusive hardware on the person. Would like to see what Kinect 2 can do and how people can integrate the Occulus and Kinect 2 in the PC space at some point down the line. Its interesting that its low cost consumer devices that will probably be driving innovation on the software side.

 

[Totobeni]

- No support for glasses. The distance required for glasses makes them incompatible with the goal of providing a large FoV. People with moderate nearsightedness should be fine simply without glasses, for others the only readily available solution for the prototype unit are contact lenses.
.

..I use glasses,have really bad vision and my eyes are kinda allergic to contact lenses( turns red like hell in short time with them).

I'm out of this party then.

 

[Utako]

..I use glasses,have really bad vision and my eyes are kinda allergic to contact lenses( turns red like hell in short time with them).

I'm out of this party then.

I've never heard of anyone allergic to contact lenses. You should try and find some way around that. But sucks if you can't. :/

 

[M3d10n]

I would love to play a game with an overhead camera like a RTS, a MOBA or a Diablo-like game with this. I imagine it feels like having a slanted board full of living action figures in front of you.

BTW, I just realized the Leap might be a good candidate for a matching input device for manipulating objects in 3D space.

 

[yogloo]

This is going to be so good for in-cockpit view that is mostly useless right now.

 

[leca]

For anyone that missed it the keynote is up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt-iVFxgFWk

 

[DieH@rd]

That was a really interesting panel.

Short (bad) summary:

- A lot of talk about the relationship between VR and AR, the idea is that to get good AR you need to solve all the problems of VR and then additional ones on top of that. So AR is actually ready sooner.

You mixed this up. They talked that AR is not ready yet, and that VR is easier.

 

[Durante]

You mixed this up. They talked that AR is not ready yet, and that VR is easier.

That's actually what I thought I was writing, but I mixed up VR and AR in the final sentence. Damn two letter acronyms! Thanks for the correction.

 

[1-D_FTW]

The way I see it Kinect has gotten closer to what would work best with VR goggles considering the lack of intrusive hardware on the person. Would like to see what Kinect 2 can do and how people can integrate the Occulus and Kinect 2 in the PC space at some point down the line. Its interesting that its low cost consumer devices that will probably be driving innovation on the software side.

Only if they solve the latency issue. Carmack stated you need latency of 20ms to hit the point where things hit the magical level. Kinect is 70ms with regards to movement affecting view. So it's ideal in theory, but only if there's a massive improvement.

 

[mrklaw]

- Input devices were also discussed, and the conclusion was that, while it's possible to combine VR with existing input methods and work well, it should also be possible to do better than that. All the participants are skeptical that any technology will be able to realistically encompass full body movement anytime soon.

- In terms of game support, both Abrash and Carmack tried VR with game types other than FPS, and they both agree that it's great for almost anything that uses a 3D camera, including third person and god games.

For input devices, can the PS move be hooked up to a PC? I think a sharpshooter would be a good option for an fps. I'd like something with kickback like the point blank arcade pistols though

Good news on the different types of game. Makes sense but good that they've tried it.



How bad do people expect the resolution to be? Worse than 3DSXL? I'm fine with that, while lots of people don't like the low ppi. I'm also tempted to jump in as a guinea pig. Especially if consumer versions are 12-18 months later (any info on expected timing for those?). I'd need a PC too though)

 

[1-D_FTW]

For input devices, can the PS move be hooked up to a PC? I think a sharpshooter would be a good option for an fps. I'd like something with kickback like the point blank arcade pistols though

Good news on the different types of game. Makes sense but good that they've tried it.



How bad do people expect the resolution to be? Worse than 3DSXL? I'm fine with that, while lots of people don't like the low ppi. I'm also tempted to jump in as a guinea pig. Especially if consumer versions are 12-18 months later (any info on expected timing for those?). I'd need a PC too though)

I would expect the Hydra to get more support (although that's not perfect either.)

As for resolution: I'm bracing for worse. Remember: It's not just the PPI, it's the fact you're jamming optics right up against it. That magnifies the drawbacks

 

[2MF]

This project has a crazy amount of funding for something which is meant towards game developers!

I hope this succeeds, but I also hope people don't get disappointed with what they get.

 

[Bill Squabber]

All I want is 1080p/1200p and an oled screen. How much much does that add in cost, I'll pay the premium, and I'm sure there are others that agree with me.

 

[mrklaw]

I would expect the Hydra to get more support (although that's not perfect either.)

As for resolution: I'm bracing for worse. Remember: It's not just the PPI, it's the fact you're jamming optics right up against it. That magnifies the drawbacks

I don't want to sit down at a desk. I want to feel a real gun in my hands and then stumble around my room until I strangle myself with the USB cable and smack my head on the door.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

All I want is 1080p/1200p and an oled screen. How much much does that add in cost, I'll pay the premium, and I'm sure there are others that agree with me.

Wait 3-5 years.

 

[Durante]

Wait 3-5 years.

If it really takes off I think 2 years is more likely.

But I can't even wait 4 months

As for resolution: I'm bracing for worse. Remember: It's not just the PPI, it's the fact you're jamming optics right up against it. That magnifies the drawbacks

I think the relative resolution will be similar, with the huge advantage in terms of IQ provided by the fact that you can throw crazy levels of SSAA at it.

 

[EVIL]

If it really takes off I think 2 years is more likely.

But I can't even wait 4 months


I think the relative resolution will be similar, with the huge advantage in terms of IQ provided by the fact that you can throw crazy levels of SSAA at it.

wasnt palmer talking about 2.5k screens by the end of 2013 in an earlier interview?

For anyone that missed it the keynote is up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt-iVFxgFWk

and awesome! thnx!

 

[mrklaw]

If it really takes off I think 2 years is more likely.

But I can't even wait 4 months


I think the relative resolution will be similar, with the huge advantage in terms of IQ provided by the fact that you can throw crazy levels of SSAA at it.

Exactly. 3DS is pretty crappy low res, but games like resident evil still look great with good shaders etc. a good gaming pc should have no issues with that resolution of screen, so lots of nice AA will help a lot.

Is it a 120Hz panel btw? Or is 60 fine as its 60 per eye (because it's side by side)?

 

[DieH@rd]

Is it a 120Hz panel btw? Or is 60 fine as its 60 per eye (because it's side by side)?

60hz per eye is enough to make your brain believe that is seeing a stable image that you can look for x hours without a problem.

120hz however will reduce latencies for tracking and controls, and will flip a switch in the brain into making you believe that the thing you see is.... really close to being "real".

 

[GreggTheGrimReaper]

The way I see it Kinect has gotten closer to what would work best with VR goggles considering the lack of intrusive hardware on the person. Would like to see what Kinect 2 can do and how people can integrate the Occulus and Kinect 2 in the PC space at some point down the line. Its interesting that its low cost consumer devices that will probably be driving innovation on the software side.

All of a sudden Kinect gets loved by gamers.

 

[1-D_FTW]

I think the relative resolution will be similar, with the huge advantage in terms of IQ provided by the fact that you can throw crazy levels of SSAA at it.

I think it'll be worse. But you're right about IQ. A huge part of the 3DS is the total disregard for IQ means you have massive jaggies that can cut eyeballs out. Which goes a huge way towards distracting you to the issue. So that's not something you'll suffer with the Rift since IQ isn't an issue on the PC side.

wasnt palmer talking about 2.5k screens by the end of 2013 in an earlier interview?




and awesome! thnx!

As Carmack said in the Quakecon keynote, they've been scouting a prototype that Toshiba's been demoing. That's a 2.5k and because it's slightly bigger than the current screen, would allow a vertical and horizontal FOV of 110 degrees. I think that's the display they're referencing and the one they're hoping becomes a consumer display.

All of a sudden Kinect gets loved by gamers.

In it's current form it's useless due to the latency. So I wouldn't go there. 3D is amazing and plenty of people hate that. Let's save the name calling to see if Kinect 2.0 even ships as a functional product. Then we can start a list of people who support it and those who think it's the "death of gaming".

 

[Durante]

All of a sudden Kinect gets loved by gamers.

Sure, once it gets at least 4x faster and 8x more exact.

I think for now using accelerometers re-calibrated by high-speed (IR?) cameras is more viable.

I think it'll be worse. But you're right about IQ. A huge part of the 3DS is the total disregard for IQ means you have massive jaggies that can cut eyeballs out. Which goes a huge way towards distracting you to the issue. So that's not something you'll suffer with the Rift since IQ isn't an issue on the PC side.

The relative resolution depends on how far away you're holding the system for 3DS, but after considering it I think you're probably right.

 

[1-D_FTW]

The relative resolution depends on how far away you're holding the system for 3DS, but after considering it I think you're probably right.

Right. I'm basing that on the assumption people are holding it in a comfortable position of roughly 18 inches away. If you play it 3 inches away from your face, the would change your perception.

 

[eastmen]

Sure, once it gets at least 4x faster and 8x more exact.

I think for now using accelerometers re-calibrated by high-speed (IR?) cameras is more viable.

And what would it need to do that ?

Bigger sensors should help , putting a processing unit back inside of it should help and going from usb 2.0 to 3.0 or something even faster should help.

Might be ideal for an array of kinect 2s to solve the problem. Have 4 of them stationed around you in a circle so it can track full body movement.

 

[Durante]

I think doing processing on the device makes no sense, especially in conjunction with a PC. Just focus on getting the data into the system as quickly as possible, and with as much temporal and spatial resolution as possible without compromising accuracy. USB3 would help, but probably a PCIe card with a proprietary connection would be best in terms of latency and throughput.

 

[mrklaw]

Just fundamentally it's a bad input device. With a mouse/motion sensor/controller buttons you get an immediate value you can work on, but with kinect you have to process that data to create the hand/body tracking information hat the game can use. So an inevitable interim step that is difficult to remove.

Do wireless controllers add noticeable latency? Eg a 360/PS3 analog pad.