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[yn-neko hates a cat]

I don't know if this has been posted yet but this story seems to have more examples of what Windows 8 start screen backgrounds will look like:

http://www.neowin.net/news/these-are-the-backgrounds-for-the-start-screen-in-windows-8

 

[DTKT]

So, why are Metro apps limited to a sidebar or fullscreen?

 

[Windu]

So, why are Metro apps limited to a sidebar or fullscreen?

design decision

 

[Zombie James]

So, why are Metro apps limited to a sidebar or fullscreen?

Tablets and thumbs.

 

[DTKT]

Right, oh do I feel loved in my cozy little desktop.

See, that's exactly why having one OS is a god damn nightmare.

 

[Monumental]

I find solace in the fact that no matter how much BS people spread about Windows 8 and how much whining they do, Microsoft is going to stick to their design vision and move forward with the most versatile OS in existence.

And in a few years when we move forward to the next iterations of Windows, literally no one will give a fuck about the lame as people who were whining about Metro.

 

[DTKT]

I find solace in the fact that no matter how much BS people spread about Windows 8 and how much whining they do, Microsoft is going to stick to their design vision and move forward with the most versatile OS in existence.

And in a few years when we move forward to the next iterations of Windows, literally no one will give a fuck about the lame as people who were whining about Metro.

That's a kind of blind faith that really scares me. I'm calling out obvious deficiencies in a design and the best you can muster is that I'm lame. Metro is not an abomination. But it's not the holy grail of computing, especially for the K&M users. If anything, it's a few steps forwards, and a lot of steps back.

And really, calling Windows the most versatile OS? Give me a break.

 

[JaggedSac]

There were some great moments when teaching my parents to use Windows 8.

Dad: "Why can't I see the site in internet explorer?"
Me: "Oh, that's because that site uses a java applet. When trying to view that site, make sure you use the other internet explorer."
Dad: "The other internet explorer?"
Me: "Never mind. I'll install Chrome. Just always use it instead."

What the hell site still uses Java applets?

 

[Monumental]

That's a kind of blind faith that really scares me. I'm calling out obvious deficiencies in a design and the best you can muster is that I'm lame. Metro is not an abomination. But it's not the holy grail of computing, especially for the K&M users. If anything, it's a few steps forwards, and a lot of steps back.

And really, calling Windows the most versatile OS? Give me a break.

I wasn't even talking about you specifically. There are over 3000 posts in this thread alone, not to mention other Microsoft Surface threads and generally a lot of crap I'm reading on other forums as well.

I will say this though, in what way is Windows 8 NOT the most versatile OS ever? I want you to enlighten me as to which OS is more versatile. Seriously.

 

[railGUN]

I will say this though, in what way is Windows 8 NOT the most versatile OS ever? I want you to enlighten me as to which OS is more versatile. Seriously.

Linux.

Edit: and Unix

 

[StudioTan]

That's a kind of blind faith that really scares me. I'm calling out obvious deficiencies in a design and the best you can muster is that I'm lame. Metro is not an abomination. But it's not the holy grail of computing, especially for the K&M users. If anything, it's a few steps forwards, and a lot of steps back.

And really, calling Windows the most versatile OS? Give me a break.

There is a more versatile OS for tablets and desktop PCs? I have a Windows tablet that I frequently switch between using touch, pen and using a k/m. I'm very thankful for the versatility of the OS because no matter what I'm doing with my tablet the OS it's good experience, such was not the case with Windows 7 which was painful with touch.

I'm not sure why you're so up in arms about Metro apps. If you don't like the design aesthetic just stick with desktop apps.

 

[chickdigger802]

you could always upgrade

can't you not go from win 7 pro to win 8?

thought it was only ultimate

 

[Monumental]

Linux.

Edit: and Unix

Ahahahahahahahahahhahahaaaaaaaaa.....that's good.

A big part of versatility is...you know....people actually being able to use it.

 

[yn-neko hates a cat]

So, why are Metro apps limited to a sidebar or fullscreen?

I imagine part of the reasons include:

1. Better resource control and ownership. You can control what has access to the graphics pipeline and othewr sub-systems. If something isn't being used then it can probably be handled differently or the resources can be placed elsewhere. This probably translates to more value to the application at hand and effiency.
2. Safer design assumptions is probably another reason. RT will probably add a new slew of APIs for applications to tap into and react to, its good to know that developers can focus on some of those new experiences instead of being bogged down determing the infinite possible window position, size and focus events that is typically dealt with in the desktop and those are just some example.

As Metro matures, I'm sure that many of these principles will be revisited and refined. As it took people coming from DOS and Windows 3.X a while to get used to the idea of Start buttons and multi-threaded development which in turn was allowed to mature as people became familiar with the design nomenclature, Windows 8 will present the same challenges in the begining. I would hate to see good ideas not given a chance because of a few organizations with selfish motives have managed to rally people around netative and uninformed opinions.

 

[railGUN]

Ahahahahahahahahahhahahaaaaaaaaa.....that's good.

A big part of versatility is...you know....people actually being able to use it.

That's usability, versatility is being able to adapt or adapted to many different functions or activities - something Linux is very well suited for since its lightweight and open source.

 

[DTKT]

That's usability, versatility is being able to adapt or adapted to many different functions or activities - something Linux is very well suited for since its lightweight and open source.

And that's a part that W8 is totally ignoring. It's focusing on tablets while leaving the desktop behind. Don't get me wrong, we are moving towards portable computing but it doesn't mean that the classical desktop option has to be removed.

How many years till tablets can totally replace computers and laptops? That's not even speaking about touch devices. There are plenty of issues with that too. As long as we have big fat clumsy fingers, touch screen will always be less efficient. That's barring a rapid improvement in technology or some Iron Man holographic magical doodads.

I've said it time and time again. Put a checkbox, enable Metro by default and let the user decide. You don't even have to ask at launch. The "advanced" userbase will look for a way to disable it and the "casual" will live with it.

 

[Totakeke]

.... I think we need a separate Windows 8 news thread because I keep coming back into this thread.

 

[Zabka]

Desktop works fine

 

[SCHUEY F1]

.... I think we need a separate Windows 8 news thread because I keep coming back into this thread.

I like this idea.

 

[StudioTan]

And that's a part that W8 is totally ignoring. It's focusing on tablets while leaving the desktop behind. Don't get me wrong, we are moving towards portable computing but it doesn't mean that the classical desktop option has to be removed.

How many years till tablets can totally replace computers and laptops? That's not even speaking about touch devices. There are plenty of issues with that too. As long as we have big fat clumsy fingers, touch screen will always be less efficient. That's barring a rapid improvement in technology or some Iron Man holographic magical doodads.

I've said it time and time again. Put a checkbox, enable Metro by default and let the user decide. You don't even have to ask at launch. The "advanced" userbase will look for a way to disable it and the "casual" will live with it.

The desktop has been improved a lot in Win8. How is it being removed? Why improve something you plan to deprecate?

 

[Monumental]

That's usability, versatility is being able to adapt or adapted to many different functions or activities - something Linux is very well suited for since its lightweight and open source.

And that's a part that W8 is totally ignoring. It's focusing on tablets while leaving the desktop behind.

You've said this so many times now. Why do you ignore the dozens and dozens of improvement made to the Desktop and keep coming back to a handful of cases where a specific thing uses one more click or whatever? What is such a big fucking issue with you about an extra click or two that you ignore every other damn thing done to improve the Desktop.

All this whining about Metro and you can't find one thing to complain about that isn't at most one extra click.

 

[markot]

The desktop has been improved a lot in Win8. How is it being removed? Why improve something you plan to deprecate?

lol

 

[Zabka]

No time for clicks. Plenty of time to complain about clicks.

 

[railGUN]

That's your rebuttal? Okay then.

Edit - I think the disconnect here is you arguing that it's (Win 8) the most versatile OS within itself, I'm saying Linux is the most versatile OS as in, can be installed on a vast number of different devices, big and small, full blown computers and simple single purpose devices.. But please, if you disagree, I'd love to know why.

 

[saltywalrus]

You've said this so many times now. Why do you ignore the dozens and dozens of improvement made to the Desktop and keep coming back to a handful of cases where a specific thing uses one more click or whatever? What is such a big fucking issue with you about an extra click or two that you ignore every other damn thing done to improve the Desktop.

All this whining about Metro and you can't find one thing to complain about that isn't at most one extra click.

Linux is simply too complicated for normal people to use. As you may know, the hundreds of millions of Android users all have PhDs in computer science.

 

[StudioTan]

That's your rebuttal? Okay then.

Edit - I think the disconnect here is you arguing that it's (Win 8) the most versatile OS within itself, I'm saying Linux is the most versatile OS as in, can be installed on a vast number of different devices, big and small, full blown computers and simple single purpose devices.. But please, if you disagree, I'd love to know why.

Yes, I believe this is what he's saying. It's what I was talking about anyway. The versatility is the ability use the OS with many different input devices interchangeably, not in the versatility in being able to tailor it for different purposes.

 

[Monumental]

Yes, I believe this is what he's saying. It's what I was talking about anyway. The versatility is the ability use the OS with many different input devices interchangeably, not in the versatility in being able to tailor it for different purposes.

BINGO. I didn't know if he was being intentionally daft or whether this was just a "whoosh" moment.

 

[markot]

Android is just as versatile...

 

[lunarworks]

I imagine part of the reasons include:

1. Better resource control and ownership. You can control what has access to the graphics pipeline and othewr sub-systems. If something isn't being used then it can probably be handled differently or the resources can be placed elsewhere. This probably translates to more value to the application at hand and effiency.
2. Safer design assumptions is probably another reason. RT will probably add a new slew of APIs for applications to tap into and react to, its good to know that developers can focus on some of those new experiences instead of being bogged down determing the infinite possible window position, size and focus events that is typically dealt with in the desktop and those are just some example.

So basically: "Floating windows are hard, so I'm not even gonna try."

I use my Windows machines in the same way I use my Mac. All of a sudden Windows can't handle a few separate applications floating around on the same screen? With multiple gigabytes of RAM and in excess of hundreds of megabytes of VRAM?

 

[rozay]

Android is just as versatile...

It's easily adaptable on a whole lot of devices but not anything for serious computing. Android laptops so far have been hilariously bad.

I think I would still recommend an iPad or an RT tablet over a 10.1 inch android tablet at this point. Not worth paying more than $250-300 for them.

I don't know if this has been posted yet but this story seems to have more examples of what Windows 8 start screen backgrounds will look like:

http://www.neowin.net/news/these-are-the-backgrounds-for-the-start-screen-in-windows-8

Thank you for posting this, I'm glad the simple one I'm using is still present as a lot of the new ones look like complete ass with the tiles.

 

[yn-neko hates a cat]

So basically: "Floating windows are hard, so I'm not even gonna try."

I use my Windows machines in the same way I use my Mac. All of a sudden Windows can't handle a few separate applications floating around on the same screen? With multiple gigabytes of RAM and in excess of hundreds of megabytes of VRAM?

I was trying to point out the benefits gained from full screen apps from both a development perspective and an end-user perspective. Hard is not really a word developers boil down challenges to as their will always be challenges. It becomes a matter of complexity knowing that as complexity increases, so do the risks.

That said, you really shouldn't waste too much time worrting about WindowsRT if you've made up your mind to stick to desktop. just continue using desktop. The little time you have to go into RT will become less noticable as you settle on the new platform.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Dreamspark is a part of MSDN correct? Of course with Dreamspark, it will depend on when your admin decides to post though.

 

[lunarworks]

I was trying to point out the benefits gained from full screen apps from both a development perspective and an end-user perspective. Hard is not really a word developers boil down challenges to as their will always be challenges. It becomes a matter of complexity knowing that as complexity increases, so do the risks.

Those benefits are great if you're dealing with something with limited resources... like a tablet, or phone, which, hey, the Metro UX is perfect for.

 

[Wiktor]

And really, calling Windows the most versatile OS? Give me a break.

Of course it is. Every single other OS is beyond shitty at least on one platform. Windows 8 is the only OS that works good on both desktop and tablets. THis coupled with the fact that it inherits from older versions stuff like by far the best software selection (one that makes everything else look like a joke in comparision) and the widest hardware support.

 

[dLMN8R]

So basically: "Floating windows are hard, so I'm not even gonna try."

I use my Windows machines in the same way I use my Mac. All of a sudden Windows can't handle a few separate applications floating around on the same screen? With multiple gigabytes of RAM and in excess of hundreds of megabytes of VRAM?

So we're pretending now like the Desktop doesn't exist?

 

[hateradio]

I don't know if this has been posted yet but this story seems to have more examples of what Windows 8 start screen backgrounds will look like:

http://www.neowin.net/news/these-are...n-in-windows-8

This may be odd, but I'm already over the flat, colored blocks. They look so uninspired, especially against colorful backgrounds.

 

[StudioTan]

This may be odd, but I'm already over the flat, colored blocks. They look so uninspired, especially against colorful backgrounds.

One thing they really need to add is the ability to choose the colour of your Metro tiles. I much prefer it on my phone where most of the tiles are a single colour.

 

[yn-neko hates a cat]

This may be odd, but I'm already over the flat, colored blocks. They look so uninspired, especially against colorful backgrounds.

Many people have little context in still images for live tiles. What they can do when viewed live or in a video begins to show off what makes them an evolution to what icons are. I cannot look at a live tile in action and say an icon is a more inspired design.

Those benefits are great if you're dealing with something with limited resources... like a tablet, or phone, which, hey, the Metro UX is perfect for.

Interesting point but, again, I feel like it's a really negative and reductive way of looking at the reality. Saving on resources means you can do more with what you already have. Who wouldn't want a laptop that last 10 hours instead of 5 hours? Who wouldn't want a game that has higher FPS on the same video card? Those of us who noticed our performance index go up with the first service pack of windows 7 I'm sure were presently surprised.

It's not really about what you’re losing with a lighter OS but rather what you gain. Windows 8 because it was designed to be efficient with mobile devices runs all that much better on existing hardware. The design sensibilities of Metro in the RT layer set some goals that ultimately made the traditional desktop experience better from a hardware perspective (more class driver, smaller footprint, utilization of more cores and lower power hardware) down to some of the software benefits I've already listed before. Now any application designed to run on a desktop will still be able to do so with higher efficiency. It's really hard to see the down side to that unless you want to remain adamant about RT existence itself is hindering your ability to enjoy the desktop as you always have.

 

[markot]

Many people have little context in still images for live tiles. What they can do when viewed live or in a video begins to show off what makes them an evolution to what icons are. I cannot look at a live tile in action and say an icon is a more inspired design.

Except they are half assy. Do you need achievements to scoll by on your solitaire live tile?

They should be more then just icons with a bit of info, make them resizeable, so you can show more info for things you find important. A weather tile that shows more then current and max min temps, an email tile that shows more info then the header from the latest mail. (And by resizeable I mean more then square or 2 squares)

 

[f0lken]

Except they are half assy. Do you need achievements to scoll by on your solitaire live tile?

They should be more then just icons with a bit of info, make them resizeable, so you can show more info for things you find important. A weather tile that shows more then current and max min temps, an email tile that shows more info then the header from the latest mail. (And by resizeable I mean more then square or 2 squares)

Well, if 3 months after Windows 8 arrives officially you don't see apps with those functions I will eat a crow just for you (except the part with live tiles bigger than 2 squares, I agree there should be 3 sizes like in WP 1-2-4x)

 

[markot]

I just like android widgets, I want my email live tiles to show me more info, and I dont need info from games and crap.

Also, another problem with metro... why does the start screen have so much unused space and the top and bottom? Its like the stupid windows phone '1/5 of the side of the screen is a button' crap that just make it look alittle messy and silly >.<

 

[hateradio]

Many people have little context in still images for live tiles. What they can do when viewed live or in a video begins to show off what makes them an evolution to what icons are. I cannot look at a live tile in action and say an icon is a more inspired design.

I understand what they can do, and that's part of the implementation. However, when they're flat and static, they feel like something designed in 2004 using DreamWeaver and a few tables.

 

[markot]

Colourwise the tiles should all change to the hue of the background you choose though. I think it just doesnt look that nice with all these clashing colours.

Its like windows phone, you see them, all this nice uniform colour, then a big ass green xbox icon >.>

 

[yn-neko hates a cat]

Except they are half assy. Do you need achievements to scoll by on your solitaire live tile?

They should be more then just icons with a bit of info, make them resizeable, so you can show more info for things you find important. A weather tile that shows more then current and max min temps, an email tile that shows more info then the header from the latest mail. (And by resizeable I mean more then square or 2 squares)

The goal of the live tiles is to allow you to see at a glance the information you would normally have to open an entire app to do. They're designed to do so with not much more recourses than one would use to display a static icon. Apps and widgets do not offer much more functionality proportional to the resources they consume. Why would you want apps to spin-up on a screen you are hardly ever really on? You want at-a-glance style on a screen that you really ever see, at a glance. It just makes sense to me.

 

[Slavik81]

you didn't already do that during IE 6/7? honestly the amount of tool bars on my parents computer made me want to pull my hair out so i made em use firefox & chrome and told em to never install toolbars again.

Naw, they'd been pretty good about that. IE10's decent enough as a browser. The fact that there's both a metro and a desktop version (each with different features) is a little confusing, though.

What the hell site still uses Java applets?

It was related to real-time stock monitoring. You still see the the occasional site with java applets in specialized areas.

 

[yn-neko hates a cat]

Naw, they'd been pretty good about that. IE10's decent enough as a browser. The fact that there's both a metro and a desktop version, each with different features, is a little confusing, though.


It was related to real-time stock monitoring. You still the the occasional site with java applets in specialized areas.

Yeah.. there's just some OS level features browsers wont allow access to that the Java virtual machine will. It's a blessing and a curse

 

[dLMN8R]

Live tiles on Windows Phone have become pretty awesome, now that developers know how to use them right. The best ones always put the time of last refresh on the live tile, so you know exactly how recent the data is you're looking at. They also use customized images so that they can squeeze a ton of info into a single live tile.

I linked to this on a previous page as an example: http://allaboutwindowsphone.com/software/content/MyStocks-Portfolio.php

You can customize the live tile for that app to show exactly what info you want to show, enabling a rotation of 12 different stock quotes.

 

[Igo]

Has anyone else had any issues with the new Nvidia drivers? Windows attempts to load but after a few restarts goes into repair mode on both 302.82 and 304.79beta. I can boot into safe bode from there which allows me to uninstall the new drivers, and then I think Windows automatically rolls back to 301.42.

Any solutions?

 

[markot]

Wait for newer drivers. The windows 8 drivers for ATI are shit too.

 

[infinityBCRT]

If anyone is having problems running GFWL games, try referring to this thread: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2318449

It fixed my issue with Microsoft Flight, but then I still had an issue with Mortal Kombat Arcade Kollection-- the additional steps I took were to uninstall it, install the latest GFWL client included in the MS Flight folder in steam, and then reinstall Mortal Kombat Arcade Kollection and now everything seems hunky dory with GFWL games.