StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
What aspect of Metro do you feel doesn't work well for a mouse?
Windows 8 Release Preview
- Thread starter celebi23
- Start date
- Status
What aspect of Metro do you feel doesn't work well for a mouse?
but those things are both true
Wiktor
Member
You will barely be forced to use desktop on tablet and metro on PC. The few seconds (at most) you will spend on each everyday won't kill you.
W8 is two different UIs, each amazingly well optimized for their respective uses. THe only problem is the rare ocassion when they both meet in the middle, but it's small price to pay for having genuinelly versalite OS, the first one of it's kind. Of course there are some birthing pains, but that's to be expected, since nobody has actually tried doing what MS is with W8.
I don't give a fuck what you are using. Are you developing applications and only targeting XP?
Oh I see, anything you disagree with. Let's see
Overall it isn't intuitive. Metro alone is fine, but the flip/flop is awkward, and they are mashed together. The search isn't better, it's actually demonstrably worse in some ways.
Heh, I also run a lot of OS's in VMs, I probably am in VMs more than I am out of them. They are an essential part of development.
But, hey I'm sure everyone that doesn't like Windows 8, just didn't give it enough time.
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
I think the contention is less about the fact that those aspects of the OS exist as it is about the "being forced down my throat" hyperbole.
No one would say "the Start button in Windows 7 is being forced down my throat". It's simply a function of the OS.
If you don't want to use Metro apps you never have to visit the store. Also although the Start menu was redesigned to allow to efficient use on touch devices it works as well or better (for most tasks) than the old Start menu with a keyboard and mouse as well. It's simply a function of the OS designed for universal use.
It's better in the sense that it's integrated into apps now. So you can search through your email, messages and any other app in the same interface with 1 click of the mouse.
Steelyuhas
Member
Yeah I think most of the main trackpad makers have already said and demoed Windows 8 drivers they will have that will have stuff like swipes form the right to pull up the charms bar and swipe from the top for the app bar.
I don't think you know how software developing works.
Wiktor
Member
the start button was a part of Windows 8 until it was removed so people were forced to use the new UI.
but there's no other way to get software. Unless you want a really expensive calculator you have to use the store. (RT version and normal version if you want newer 'apps')
I think he does know, since that's what he's doing.
Even though they removed the ability to use the classic Start menu, and also the ability to boot to the desktop instead of the Start screen when you log in?
How can you really say it is better for desktop users if the improvements are only for Metro apps?
You have a ridiculously short fuse.
I didn't say I disagree with the talking points I've listed, I didn't say I agreed with the talking points I've listed. I'm going to give the OS a try with the Surface and see how it turns out.
As much as it sounds dismissive, we've all been using Windows95-7 for almost 20 years. How can you know th...
Why the hell am I typing this? No one cares. Ugh, I hate that I let you trick me into talking with you. Never again, internet, never again!
Complex Shadow
Cudi Lame
What? Look if you don't want apps then don't buy it's that simple. The desktop mode is still there.
Win8 is the best thing that happened to MS
I mean, they are actually updating their software now:
Update for Live Essentials: http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/...ew-windows-photo-gallery-and-movie-maker.aspx
And the new MS IntellType/IntelliPoint (Now it's MS Mouse and Keyboard Center):
Now if only they could update WMP or just scrap it altogether.
I mean, they are actually updating their software now:
Update for Live Essentials: http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/...ew-windows-photo-gallery-and-movie-maker.aspx
And the new MS IntellType/IntelliPoint (Now it's MS Mouse and Keyboard Center):
Now if only they could update WMP or just scrap it altogether.
You don't know what you are talking about.
Not really, sorry if I hurt your feelings. You didn't read the post, I can use Win7, I can't keep developing in the past, and it will stop getting non critical updates in a year and a half.
what happens when people make 'apps' and stop making traditional software (for lack of a better term)?
I'm sure that's what Microsoft are hoping for because people really will be forced to use the store.
Complex Shadow
Cudi Lame
Are you sure? I am not sure.
Sure does not sound like it.
They can develop that Software for Steam then, I am sure everyone would not be angry about that.
That's not Microsoft's fault surely. It's like complaining about developers who stopped making programs for DOS.
If consumers are increasingly fine with iOS style apps instead of traditional software then developers will shift accordingly. This isn't being mandated by MS is it? And I hardly think they can be attacked for getting their foot in that door and trying to become relevant in a huge market that, don't forget, Apple made popular.
What can you develop for Windows 7 that wouldn't run on Windows 8? Why can't you keep targeting it when anything that runs on Win 7 will run on 8 as well?
My complaint is with the distribution (the idea of a mandatory Store) not the software. I don't like the idea of a gatekeeper telling people what they can and can't do.
And I don't give a shit about Apple. Apple are Apple and they're off in their own little world doing whatever they want like they always have.
Lolz, yes I've been developing for over twenty years now.
You need to target an OS(s) and test on any of the others that you want to be compatible with. There are small differences in every Windows version, new APIs in pretty much every version. If you use a new API, you need to make sure you allow the older OS's to work. Old APIs can work slightly differently in new OSs.
So I should develop for the old platform because I don't like the OS. That is not a very successful strategy. I need to evolve to it, but I don't need to lie and say it is better, or like it. I don't believe I can even get a Win7 logo anymore (forced to the new SDK).
Because this isn't true. I'm not sure what is different yet, because I don't start testing in earnest on Prerelease OS's (learned that a long time ago). I like the idea of everything just working in all version of Windows, but that is not reality. Most things work.
Damon Bennet
Member
you want to publish a program and not use the store? do it. there are hundreds of millions of user on vista, 7 and soon 8 that will gladly download your product.
the mandatory store is important for the current trend in tablet space, and while the apps in the store are optimized for touch, they are also made for great mouse and keybord use. why exclude the store and all its programs from windows 8 users? just because some people dont like a closed store?
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
No it wasn't, it just legacy code in the early preview version that people figured out how to re-enable.
Start screen replaces the Start menu and offers the same functionality. Why do you need to boot directly to the desktop?
Some Metro apps are very useful on a desktop PC.
I think you're fighting the future then, not MS. Every OS has a store now. Windows 8 has a completely open desktop so you can ignore the included Store.
That *was* true. It stopped being true sometime before they became the largest company in the world. MS can't ignore the paradigms they've introduced.
Sure but I don't see how that's any different from, say, the change from Vista to 7 and it seems to be much less onerous than the change from Xp to Vista.
maybe I missed something in the development of Windows 8 but isn't the store the only way to install software on the RT version? I can't just go to someone's website and download a metro app for my new Surface tablet, right?
As an example, if you look at Android you don't have to use the Google Play store to get apps. Amazon have their own app store. That's just not possible on Windows 8 and there's my complaint. What if Microsoft changes the terms and wants a bigger cut? what you gonna do about it?
the only thing that the start menu has over the start screen is that if you want to view other desktop programs while searching for something you can't, well not without multiple monitors. (i honestly don't know why you would need to view something else constantly in those few seconds it takes to search but whatever). The other is search being seperated into 3 categories, i would prefer a option to put them all together but it is such a minor issue to me i don't feel like its worth complaining about. All of the other complaints i have seen about the start menu vs start screen debate have been just people not wanting to adapt and learn the new stuff which is understandable since the start menu works fine but the new start screen is more efficient and provides more functionality imo. Then there is the fact that it is so easy to ignore the new stuff and use the desktop for 99.99% of the time it honestly makes all of the complaints pointless. The benefits that 8 brings to the table just in terms of the boot times etc...is well worth the $40 it will take to upgrade (as well as rumors having a full license around maybe $100) that i think people are insane not to get it, but then again some people are still holding on to XP too.
It isn't different. Valve will continue to update their Steam desktop client. Adobe will continue updating their desktop software. Etc, etc.
The only difference now is if they have a choice of staying desktop only, or offering a Metro app on the side. Or in certain cases, replace their desktop software with a Metro version.
No it doesn't. Stop saying this. It offers 75% of the functionality at most in ways that are less convenient than before.
You can have icons on the taskbar that you can use to launch the programs. Do you need to open the Start menu every time you log in to Windows 7?
Most aren't, and if you choose to stay with the desktop versions you don't get any of the advantages.
What things are you doing in the Start Menu currently?
Oh the RT Version? Yes this is true.
Not a Metro app but a regular desktop program works fine on Surface Pro.
But it doesn't make sense to criticize the full desktop version of Windows 8 for the limitations of the WinRT only tablet OS.
Ok, so I think I've hit my first real annoyance with Metro apps (apart from the Music app - still inexcusable how awful it is, but I've gotten over it).
I updated Google Chrome after someone in here mentioned that Google had added support for Metro. It seemed fine at first, until I realized that none of my cookies or browser information carried over from the desktop version of the browser. And if I have tabs open in desktop chrome and I click a link in a metro app the link opens in a new browser window completely separate from the browser window I already have opened in desktop view. In essence, desktop chrome and metro chrome function like two different programs, despite being the same browser on the SAME machine.
It's also annoying that chrome is treated like a typical metro app and freezes if you back out of the app without snapping it. This means that anytime I'm playing pandora or a youtube video and switch apps those services will freeze as well.
I understand how this all makes sense for tablets that won't have a desktop view,but nothing about how Chrome is treated in Metro makes ANY sense for a PC and is one of the few areas where I do feel MS should modify how Metro functions depending on the hardware it's on.
I updated Google Chrome after someone in here mentioned that Google had added support for Metro. It seemed fine at first, until I realized that none of my cookies or browser information carried over from the desktop version of the browser. And if I have tabs open in desktop chrome and I click a link in a metro app the link opens in a new browser window completely separate from the browser window I already have opened in desktop view. In essence, desktop chrome and metro chrome function like two different programs, despite being the same browser on the SAME machine.
It's also annoying that chrome is treated like a typical metro app and freezes if you back out of the app without snapping it. This means that anytime I'm playing pandora or a youtube video and switch apps those services will freeze as well.
I understand how this all makes sense for tablets that won't have a desktop view,but nothing about how Chrome is treated in Metro makes ANY sense for a PC and is one of the few areas where I do feel MS should modify how Metro functions depending on the hardware it's on.
It isn't that much different. I'm not even complaining that developing for Win8 is something very difficult or different. Someone said Win7 wasn't going to disappear, and he is wrong from my standpoint. I need to develop to the latest OS, Win7 IS legacy at this point. I do have to run it in VMs for testing, I do have to make sure I pass logo requirements. HP, Dell, Gateway don't give a crap if I don't like Win8, they want the apps on their computers certified.
The Win8 logo requirements are going to be a pain, but I think most of them really needed to be done a long time ago.
This definitely needs to be fixed.
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
What 25% is missing?
So if you want to get to your desktop to run a program then why not run it from the Start screen? Doesn't that make sense?
Most? All we have so far are free and preview apps. Even still there are 3 or 4 apps that I use daily.
The jump lists are gone, for one thing. The sleep/shut down button is gone, and the folder and control panel links are no longer there. As well as that, the all programs button has been relegated to the pointless right-click menu. As the start screen is no longer part of the desktop. you can't drag and drop stuff between the two like you could before, and some of the right-click options have been removed.
It's easier to remember the location of one icon that is always in the same place whenever you need to use it, rather than having two depending on whether you've just logged on. Also, the jump lists again.
They're still less useful than the desktop versions. Why would you want to use the Metro Mail when you could use Outlook?
jump list as in the most recently used stuff on the start menu? Yeah i guess that is no longer there. If you are talking about jumplists as in the lists on the right click menus for taskbar icons, those of course are still there. As for the control panel etc.. Right click in the bottom left to get a menu with all of that stuff or go to the charms bar while in the desktop or of course search or go to all programs. And i am not at my pc right now but i think sleep is still a option under the shut down options.
The functionality is there, it is just different.
I don't understand the boot time thing, I mean I understand it's nice, but I simply don't reboot my machines very often. If it wasn't for Windows Updates, I would reboot them less than once a month.
I think Metro has a couple flaws that make it very hard to work with if you have a lot of programs and files.
1) The length of the items is too short (or font is too large). Even relatively short names get truncated.
2) No hover for location and name (This with above make it very difficult to work with)
3) No hierarchy, this makes it impossible to manage browsing a large amount of applications.
Fix these, and most of my complaints about Metro wouldn't be much of an issue. I do however think the flip/floping of interfaces is a mess and is very unpolished at this point, some control panel applets bounce you back into Metro. I find myself having to Win+D way too often.
The functionality is not there, it's been moved to various different locations which all require more effort to get to, defeating the point of the Start menu being an easy access location for all the things you might need to do.
GalacticGravy
Member
I'm cautiously optimistic. The biggest issue is that, as the family's computer guy, it might open up a whole avenue of issues I have to deal with like Vista and 7 did.
Jzero
Member
I taught my noob mom and sister how to use windows 8 faster than i did with 7.
Thats a way to look at it.
The way I look at is this way. Windows 7 had the ability to use the classic start menu or the desktop. Windows 8 does not and never did.
They haven't taken away anything because they are two diffrent products.
eh, like i said its different (i still think it provides to same functionality) It does require more mouse movement but it seems like less clicks in the end. i haven't noticed a loss in productivity, then again all i really do with it is search just like in 7.
i reboot my computer everyday so big deal to me, anyway all of the other small desktop improvements are worth it to me. There is hierarchy of some sorts, it is just laid out flat in the new start screen i find that easier, some might not. There is a open file location option when you right click those programs but yeah it doesn't tell you the location on hover over, it will tell you the full name on hover if it is truncated though.
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
Other than jump lists all those functions are available, they've just been moved. Going to Start in order to shut down your computer has always been a little unintuitive. Getting to the control panel is actually faster now than using the old Start menu.
I'm not sure what you were dragging and dropping before. Can you give me an example?
Come on now. You really won't be able to remember where a live tile is? You're going to be confused between where the live tile is and where something is on your taskbar? I don't buy that for a second.
So you think the mail app will never be improved? Have you seen the new Outlook website? It's very easy to use and completely doable in Metro if it hasn't already been done.
Those are all reasonable complaints. Until some of those things are fixed why don't you do file searches with the desktop file explorer?
Not as unintuitive as running the mouse down the side of the screen and going to Settings, waiting for the animations to finish at every turn. And how can you get to the Control Panel faster than two clicks like you could from the Start menu?
Search for a file, then drag it to the program you want to open it with, or the folder you want to move/copy it to.
That's clearly not what I was saying. It is just unnecessary to have two shortcuts to the same program just so you can open it directly from the Start screen, when in previous versions you could just have the one on the desktop.
It will still never have as many features as desktop Outlook. I think we're going off on a bit of a tangent though. I was just pointing out that you said that the search was better because you could search apps directly, directly after suggesting to the same person that he could just use desktop programs like he used to, even though those desktop apps will never be able to make use of the improvements.
the post above you
Key word: faster. Two clicks is the same as before, and Win-X plus a click is worse than Win key plus a click.
- Status