Alen Ladavac, Croteam's CTO, comments on Windows 8

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http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=33268524&postcount=16

I have to apologize in advance for keeping off topic, but I would very much like to clear this one thing. I think that this is very important as there are "under the hood" motions related to Windows 8 that are hidden and not well understood even by many developers (yet), and certainly not by most gamers. Pardon me if this turns out to be a long post, but it is a complex issue. I'll highlight only the most important sentences if you want to skip the details.

Gabe Newel did not overreact. What you don't see here is that, under the hood, the new tiled UI is a means for Microsoft to lock Windows applications into a walled garden, much like the one on iOS. There is this "small detail" that Microsoft is not advertising anywhere, but you can find it dug deep in the developer documentation:

One cannot release a tiled UI application by any other means, but only through Windows Store!

I cannot even begin to stress out just how horrible this idea is! There is no side-loading, except for corporate use inside one company, and that works only on the enterprise edition of Windows 8. Do we all understand what that means? You cannot download an application from the Internet and run it on your computer. You have to get it from Microsoft's store. Even if it is a free app!

If it was just about "being downloaded from Windows store", it would not be a problem. It would be nice to have a common hub to download things from. But to get an app onto that store, it has to be certified by MS. This means bringing the "console experience" onto your desktop. Each app that you will get through the Windows Store will have to adhere to certain requirements imposed by MS. So far, we know that they've banned mature games, like Skyrim, CoD, and Serious Sam.[*] They have forbidden modding. They could very well forbid Open Source if they want. But even if these terms were not there, this is still a certification system. With all of its downsides, including uncertain release dates, rare and late patches, and everything turning out to be more expensive and sucking more.

While, theoretically, desktop applications are exempt from these requirements, it looks more and more like just a foot-in-the-door technique. A large number of developers have expressed their concern with possibility that, probably in Windows 9 or something like that, the ability to get even desktop apps in any other way than through Windows app store may very well be removed. When that happens it will be too late.

I would not invest into supporting the tiled UI apps (which MS now conveniently calls "Windows Store apps" - does that ring a bell?), until MS removes the requirement that they have to be shipped through Windows Store on desktop at least - and thereby remove the requirement of certifying them with MS. Certification is a broken concept and should be abolished.

Now, while in current state Windows 8 do look like they support plain desktop apps seamlessly, the removal of start menu and use of "charms" even on the desktop looks like a pretty blunt attempt to force users to "get used" to the tiled UI. It would be fine by me if it wasn't for the aforementioned certification issue.

So, it is a vicious circle. And not an accidental one. This one was carefully designed to be that way. I say: no thank you, I'll skip on that one.

---
[*] Yes, I know that the PEGI-16 limit is supposed to be lifted to PEGI-18, but this is only an announcement, and we didn't see the new terms yet. There could still be another fly in the ointment. Note that besides the bare rating, they also disproved profanities, drug references, and various other things like that in terms that are separate from the rating requirement. If they don't remove all of that, a game may satisfy the ratings yet still fail the cert. Worst thing is for such things you simply cannot know what they will allow until you submit, which is terrible.
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One cannot release a tiled UI application by any other means, but only through Windows Store!
Click to expand...

Is that how it works then. Kind of cuntish when were supposed to pay for Windows 8.
For all its defenders I don't think anyone can give reasonable reason to update from 7.
 
"You cannot download an application from the Internet and run it on your computer. You have to get it from Microsoft's store. Even if it is a free app!"


could not be more wrong

To have a metro live tile yes, that is true.

But i have downloaded 500 programs on windows 8 and installed them from the internet


for fuck sake this guy is a CTO? get his degree and quals from a cereal box?
 
Choc said:
"You cannot download an application from the Internet and run it on your computer. You have to get it from Microsoft's store. Even if it is a free app!"


could not be more wrong

To have a metro live tile yes, that is true.

But i have downloaded 500 programs on windows 8 and installed them from the internet


for fuck sake this guy is a CTO? get his degree and quals from a cereal box?
Click to expand...

He is clearly talking about metro apps and craps.
 
markot said:
He is clearly talking about metro apps and craps.
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""You cannot download an application from the Internet and run it on your computer. You have to get it from Microsoft's store. Even if it is a free app!""

that doesn't say to download a METRO application does it

he implies that all apps go thorugh this stupid process which is wrong
 
Choc said:
"You cannot download an application from the Internet and run it on your computer. You have to get it from Microsoft's store. Even if it is a free app!"


could not be more wrong

To have a metro live tile yes, that is true.

But i have downloaded 500 programs on windows 8 and installed them from the internet


for fuck sake this guy is a CTO? get his degree and quals from a cereal box?
Click to expand...

He's not wrong or confused. He makes it clear that this applies only for Metro apps. "One cannot release a tiled UI application by any other means, but only through Windows Store!"
 
Choc said:
""You cannot download an application from the Internet and run it on your computer. You have to get it from Microsoft's store. Even if it is a free app!""

that doesn't say to download a METRO application does it

he implies that all apps go thorugh this stupid process which is wrong
Click to expand...

No, that directly quoted bit doesnt say that, and if you remove the context, you are right.
 
angular graphics said:
He's not wrong or confused. He makes it clear that this applies only for Metro apps. "One cannot release a tiled UI application by any other means, but only through Windows Store!"
Click to expand...

that quote is correct but the other quote implies all apps. He was obviously talking in a pissed tone because he doesn't like Windows 8 but yeah the quote implies all apps

no matter how you defend it really.

""You cannot download an application from the Internet and run it on your computer. You have to get it from Microsoft's store. Even if it is a free app!""
 
Choc said:
that quote is correct but the other quote implies all apps. He was obviously talking in a pissed tone because he doesn't like Windows 8 but yeah the quote implies all apps

no matter how you defend it really.

""You cannot download an application from the Internet and run it on your computer. You have to get it from Microsoft's store. Even if it is a free app!""
Click to expand...

Its a good thing you can read the entire article then and understand his meaning rather than getting all defensive yourself then, isn't it?

MS really didnt think the fucking shitstorm of ill-will having an entirely walled off mode of their OS would generate.
 
Pie and Beans said:
Its a good thing you can read the entire article then and understand his meaning rather than getting all defensive yourself then, isn't it?

MS really didnt think the fucking shitstorm of ill-will having an entirely walled off mode of their OS would generate.
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That or they think that in the long run it'll be worth it financially. Plus they have such a dominant market position that it's not like they have to worry about competition too much.
 
Choc said:
that quote is correct but the other quote implies all apps. He was obviously talking in a pissed tone because he doesn't like Windows 8 but yeah the quote implies all apps

no matter how you defend it really.

""You cannot download an application from the Internet and run it on your computer. You have to get it from Microsoft's store. Even if it is a free app!""
Click to expand...

No. Just because he put an . in the paragraph, doesnt mean you can ignore everything written before it.

Its called context.
 
Choc said:
that quote is correct but the other quote implies all apps. He was obviously talking in a pissed tone because he doesn't like Windows 8 but yeah the quote implies all apps

no matter how you defend it really.

""You cannot download an application from the Internet and run it on your computer. You have to get it from Microsoft's store. Even if it is a free app!""
Click to expand...

You have a pretty poor comprehension, judging from these posts.

I cannot even begin to stress out just how horrible this idea is! There is no side-loading, except for corporate use inside one company, and that works only on the enterprise edition of Windows 8. Do we all understand what that means? You cannot download an application from the Internet and run it on your computer. You have to get it from Microsoft's store. Even if it is a free app!
Click to expand...

Do you know what the "this" and "that" are referring to?
 
But to get an app onto that store, it has to be certified by MS. This means bringing the "console experience" onto your desktop. Each app that you will get through the Windows Store will have to adhere to certain requirements imposed by MS.
Click to expand...

I see no problem with that. Their certification process is quite reasonable.
 
Choc said:
that quote is correct but the other quote implies all apps. He was obviously talking in a pissed tone because he doesn't like Windows 8 but yeah the quote implies all apps

no matter how you defend it really.

""You cannot download an application from the Internet and run it on your computer. You have to get it from Microsoft's store. Even if it is a free app!""
Click to expand...

If you read it out of context.

I can only speak about myself and when I read it, I wasn't confused at all or thought he doesn't know what he's talking about. To me he clearly talks about Metro apps right there. Anyway, that's not important to debate.
 
The thing is this whinging by the game makers is pointless. Microsoft isn't going to change it and they will still sell enough for it to be the dominant operating system over time.

right now its pretty hard to pick up a windows 7 machine new now (except the run out models)

Microsoft isn't going to change it and does not give a fuck what the PC developers think.

They have an Xbox, they want everyone to develop for that, clear as day.

I take the game makers views and somewhat agree but its going to change fuck all. Microsoft want to go the apple route to take apple on and thats the way it is.

Just the fact really. So tell MS they are dicks as much as you want PC game devs, nothings going to change.
 
BlazinAm said:
I saw people in the windows 8 thread creating tiles for software not download through the app store.
Click to expand...

He is talking about 'metro apps' but you dont call them metro apps cause microsoft didnt realise people had copyrights on metro. not just the tiles....
 
If it was just about "being downloaded from Windows store", it would not be a problem. It would be nice to have a common hub to download things from. But to get an app onto that store, it has to be certified by MS. This means bringing the "console experience" onto your desktop.
Click to expand...
I'm gonna need a lot of time to fully understand how bad(everyone is going crazy about this right now) windows 8 is supposed to be for PC gaming, but this line... excuse me while I go vomit a couple gallons of blood.

MS is like the Freddy Kreuger of PC gaming, aren't they?
 
Is the problem that Microsoft has created a set of API that allow for live tile apps that can be only distributed through their own store?
 
Choc said:
The thing is this whinging by the game makers is pointless. Microsoft isn't going to change it and they will still sell enough for it to be the dominant operating system over time.

right now its pretty hard to pick up a windows 7 machine new now (except the run out models)

Microsoft isn't going to change it and does not give a fuck what the PC developers think.

They have an Xbox, they want everyone to develop for that, clear as day.

I take the game makers views and somewhat agree but its going to change fuck all. Microsoft want to go the apple route to take apple on and thats the way it is.

Just the fact really. So tell MS they are dicks as much as you want PC game devs, nothings going to change.
Click to expand...

>_>

Thats such a stupid position to take on antying 'nothings going to change so shut up'....
 
BlazinAm said:
Is the problem that Microsoft has created a set of API that allow for live tile apps that can be only distributed through their own store?
Click to expand...

They have copied itunes, and because of drm they do it this way so you can't pirate livetiles
 
markot said:
>_>

Thats such a stupid position to take on antying 'nothings going to change so shut up'....
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Its true though markot. PC enthusiast probably represent 2% if that of the market. Enterprise is where Microsofts money is and always will be.

I'm not saying dont whinge, im saying whinge but nothing will change. Its obvious, they ignored it all during the dev phase so why listen now.
 
Erethian said:
That or they think that in the long run it'll be worth it financially. Plus they have such a dominant market position that it's not like they have to worry about competition too much.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure the core of it is wanting more RT support and this is the way to steer that. But noses and faces and the cutting thereof is often a poor way of going about things.
 
Choc said:
Its true though markot. PC enthusiast probably represent 2% if that of the market. Enterprise is where Microsofts money is and always will be.

I'm not saying dont whinge, im saying whinge but nothing will change. Its obvious, they ignored it all during the dev phase so why listen now.
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Its got nothing to do with enterprise, its to do with tablets and building their stupid ass rival to apples ecosystem...
 
markot said:
There are none. Its a tablet os half assed into windows 7.
Click to expand...

maybe stop by the Windows 8 thread in OT. you'll see a lot of reasoned discussion about the benefits of Windows 8 over Windows 7.

bigtroyjon said:
I was watching Hulu today and they had commercials for their W8 app with live tiles. Couldn't figure out what the point of a Hulu live tile is. Does it just cycle through all the new shows?
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yeah, basically. so you can see something has gone live without opening the app to check. Like I saw the tile yesterday with Louis CK and the SNL cast on my start screen so I knew they'd put that up. I don't get why a game like Serious Sam 3 needs a live tile though. I do see where the 'fear' is coming from about where Windows 9 might go, but once you see what kind of games are in the store, and what restrictions are on them about what hardware they need to run on and what content is allowed in them, you'd realize that they're never going to replace retail PC games, or most of what's on Steam. the 'kind' of titles you can put on the Store will not satisfy everyone. far from it.
 
bigtroyjon said:
I was watching Hulu today and they had commercials for their W8 app with live tiles. Couldn't figure out what the point of a Hulu live tile is. Does it just cycle through all the new shows?
Click to expand...

Most likely.

What would a live tile for a game do? Cycle through screenshots? Ooo so useful.
 
plagiarize said:
maybe stop by the Windows 8 thread in OT. you'll see a lot of reasoned discussion about the benefits of Windows 8 over Windows 7.
Click to expand...

Why? Ive got windows 8, I dont need people to tell me its better, its not, its a waste of money.

ITS NOT ABOUT LIVE TILES. ITS ABOUT THE APPS THAT ARE SOLD THROUGH THE MICROSOFT STORE AND THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN ACTUALLY DISTRBUTE APPS MADE "FOR" WINDOWS "METRO".......
 
It would be fine by me if it wasn't for the aforementioned certification issue.
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That's the golden sentence.

Stallion Free said:
Most likely.

What would a live tile for a game do? Cycle through screenshots? Ooo so useful.
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My picture tile cycles through my screenshots alredy. :p
But yeah... no game needs a live tile. The Xbox tile cycles through various last played games, shows the achievements etc. Maybe something like that?
 
SolarPowered said:
I'm gonna need a lot of time to fully understand how bad(everyone is going crazy about this right now) windows 8 is supposed to be for PC gaming, but this line... excuse me while I go vomit a couple gallons of blood.

MS is like the Freddy Kreuger of PC gaming, aren't they?
Click to expand...

1. Apps are compatible and resilient
2. Apps must adhere to Windows Security Best Practices
3. Apps support Windows security features
4. Apps must adhere to system restart manager messages
5. Apps must support a clean, reversible installation
6. Apps must digitally sign files and drivers
7. Apps don’t block installation or app launch based on an operating system version check
8. Apps don’t load services or drivers in safe mode
9. Apps must follow User Account Control guidelines
10. Apps must install to the correct folders by default
11. Apps must support multi-user sessions
12. Apps must support x64 versions of Windows

oh, the horrors of a clean, reversible installation. M$ really is the devil!
 
Choc said:
They have copied itunes, and because of drm they do it this way so you can't pirate livetiles
Click to expand...

....ok


I as understand it, there are three tiers of software that will run of windows 8.

Legacy Software: windows 7, xp, vista.

Windows 8 software.

Windows store apps- these have the live tile functionality.

Is there a way to have a windows 8 app function like a store app?

Is there any research in this area, I mean people have been creating live tile UI since vista, they can be janky but isn't the start menu page suppose to allow software to function within the UI.
 
Xian said:
1. Apps are compatible and resilient
2. Apps must adhere to Windows Security Best Practices
3. Apps support Windows security features
4. Apps must adhere to system restart manager messages
5. Apps must support a clean, reversible installation
6. Apps must digitally sign files and drivers
7. Apps don’t block installation or app launch based on an operating system version check
8. Apps don’t load services or drivers in safe mode
9. Apps must follow User Account Control guidelines
10. Apps must install to the correct folders by default
11. Apps must support multi-user sessions
12. Apps must support x64 versions of Windows

oh, the horrors of a clean, reversible installation. M$ really is the devil!
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Great of you to ignore "Apps made for 'metro' must be distrubuted through the microsoft store"
 
Does a game need a tiled UI whatever? I mean they could just make the game without it and then release through Steam like normal right?
 
markot said:
Why? Ive got windows 8, I dont need people to tell me its better, its not, its a waste of money.

ITS NOT ABOUT LIVE TILES. ITS ABOUT THE APPS THAT ARE SOLD THROUGH THE MICROSOFT STORE AND THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN ACTUALLY DISTRBUTE APPS MADE "FOR" WINDOWS "METRO".......
Click to expand...

you said that no one can give a reasonable explanation of why someone should upgrade from Windows 7. this is patently false even if you personally don't think it's worth the upgrade.

why does a game need to be made for windows metro? what elements of being a metro app are useful to a game? any game can put a shortcut on the start screen. any game can run full screen and be touch enabled. any game can interface with GFWL (not that you probably want it to). what does a PC game lose by being sold in a brick and mortar store, or through a popular digital store?
 
Except if you want to release a game compatible with windows rt , you have to use the tile ui shit, and distribute it through windows store. Any 'metro' app is the same. you cant sell anything but metro apps on the windows store.
 
Alen Ladavac said:
There is this "small detail" that Microsoft is not advertising anywhere, but you can find it dug deep in the developer documentation:
Click to expand...

Lol. Good investigation dude. Well done digging deep through the developer documentation to discover MS's well hidden secret that "Metro" apps an only be installed through the store.

What a tool.
 
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