With a 1% market share, there's not much of an incentive to do so. Macs have a far larger market share and still there are only a handful of games compared to Windows.
Alen Ladavac, Croteam's CTO, comments on Windows 8
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With a 1% market share, there's not much of an incentive to do so. Macs have a far larger market share and still there are only a handful of games compared to Windows.
plagiarize
Banned
you're one of the only people I've seen voicing actual valid problems with Windows 8. your example of being unable to write a desktop application that interacts with a Metro game in a similar way to your resolution fix for Dark Souls. I use a similar program for Silent Hill 3.
As someone who loves Windows 8 and has, horror! bought some games from the store, I can only hope that we won't see games doing such dumb resolution things in the future and that the need for such things won't exist. but absolutely, I can understand how that makes someone with your abilities feel like they have less control over their machine.
Fears like Alen voices are, I think, ignorant of all the things required to make that fear come true, which goes far beyond Microsoft just throwing a lever... because they won't *blindly* pull that lever. If you are afraid of that possibility you can still buy Windows 8. Just ignore the windows store. It isn't numbers of windows 8 sales that Microsoft will be using to gauge whether or not to kill open software on the desktop in Windows 9, it's sales of open software, and windows store sales.
not buying Windows 8 is leaving you unable to interact with all that software too. in other words, the slippery slope thing that might happen isn't a reason not to upgrade if the benefits of upgrading appeal to you, because again, it isn't about windows 8 acceptance, it's about sales in the app store.
Woo-Fu
Banned
Kind of poetic when you think about it.
Microsoft would love to transition Windows to the walled model that works so well for them on 360. I don't know why people keep saying "just like Apple/IOS" when Microsoft has been doing it on their consoles for as long or longer. If anything the only thing Apple has added for Microsoft is a reduction in the likelihood of the Justice department singling them out for it at some point down the road.
I suspect many of the people who don't see any problem with this might start to see problems when Microsoft starts using their desktop as advertising space. Then again, the 360 apologists don't even seem to notice how much of its interface is dedicated to ads.
While I'd like to blame Microsoft for this I really can't. If they want to keep the stock price boosted they have to keep adding revenue streams to an otherwise saturated market. You can only sell so many copies of each version of Windows, after all, that market isn't going to grow exponentially. US companies grow or they die, there isn't much middle ground.
Yeah, because we all know the worse thing that could happen is not being able to make a res mod for a game...........
Who gives a shit?
Why would anyone want to buy software that uses the horrible metro UI when you could use the non retarded desktop GUI?
Desktop programs are also not going to stop supporting Windows 7 anytime soon.
plagiarize
Banned
something I feel I have to say, I view the Microsoft store as a competitor to any other digital store. obviously they have the advantage of being built into the OS, which Europe might have something to say about, but that's how I view it.
Steam refused Pinball FX 2, so I'm glad the Windows 8 store exists, because they didn't and I can now play the game on PC.
Steam refused Pinball FX 2, so I'm glad the Windows 8 store exists, because they didn't and I can now play the game on PC.
BrokenEchelon
Banned
So release the game as a desktop program as people have been doing for the last 20+ years.
Steam is not the only place you can release games on PC, the windows store on the other hand is the only place you can release games for metro.
I have windows 8 to and I don't use the built in tiles other than for email, I think it's a ton of overreaction about Windows 8.
ZombieSupaStar
Member
I have a feeling we are going to see United States v. Microsoft part 2, this decade.
HyperV on board, better Taskmanager, way faster, ISOs are mounted as a drive automatically... for 30. That's a good reason imho.
plagiarize
Banned
I was talking about what is actually true NOW. And I was acknowledging that Durante's example is a problem today, not something which may be a problem at some point in the future. I never said it was the worst case, just a valid problem that exists right now. I was throwing you guys a bone.
then what do you have to worry about? if people don't embrace metro apps, Microsoft aren't going to kill the desktop. if it happens it happens by slowly weaning people off desktop apps before killing them.
Windows 8 has some advantages over Windows 7 in the desktop. some people won't think those alone are worth the upgrade, some will. I was just saying that if someone thinks the desktop upgrades are worth the upgrade, but who is worried that upgrading might encourage Microsoft to close things down, that they shouldn't, because buying windows 8 and refusing to use the store sends as strong a message to Microsoft as refusing to buy Windows 8, if not a stronger one.
but i'm not suggesting anyone buy Windows 8 that doesn't want it. i'm just saying don't let all the metro stuff and what it might evolve into put you off if you want the desktop improvements and think them worth $40.
So because you only use metro for emails a locked down program environment dos not matter ?!
CrazedProfessional
Member
All these Indie devs lying about Windows 8, making it seem like the Frankenstein monster that it isn't 
plagiarize
Banned
what is a 'game for metro'? I mean, functionally how is it different? It can have a live tile I guess, and it can have an app pinned next to it, maybe. that's it. do you really think people outside of tablet land are going to care about the difference one way or another? I don't care.
the windows store is not the only place you can release games on PC. functionally those games are no different to desktop games.
if people really can't tell something pretending to be metro like Chrome isn't metro... why is it going to matter to them that a *game* is running on the desktop vs in metro?
this isn't something like a twitter app, or an e-mail app, where you're going to want to embrace things like the share, search and devices charms, where the difference will be much more obvious. it's a game that runs full screen, that you don't print from, that you don't search within and that you don't email shit out of.
I don't love Pinball FX2 because it's a 'metro game'. I don't give a shit about any of that.
BrokenEchelon
Banned
All these Indie devs lying about Windows 8, making it seem like the Frankenstein monster that it isn't
After really using Win 8 I agree that people are taking the complaints too far, but at the same time this could very well be a stepping stone to what they're afraid of, and I understand why the backlash is already occurring.
If Microsoft draws the line here, similar(but not the same) as Apple's App Store for OSX, then I don't think there will be any real problems.
You said that if you do not buy Windows 8 you can not use all software, I pointed out that it is meaningless for Windows 7 users.
None of that means people have nothing to worry about!
All these Indie devs lying about Windows 8, making it seem like the Frankenstein monster that it isn't
They are not lying!
They are smarter than you.
You stated that you are "glad the Windows 8 store exists", implying that the game could not come out any other way on PC!
Nor do I.
I guess the one thing you can never underestimate is the number of naive people on the earth.
plagiarize
Banned
my point was only that choosing to buy windows 8 and ignoring the stuff in the windows store is the same as choosing to stay on windows 7 from the standpoint of what software you can and can't use. not wanting metro software is not a reason to *not* upgrade. that was my point.
it isn't a reason to upgrade, certainly. i'm just saying it shouldn't put anyone off upgrading that feels the upgrade worth it based on the desktop improvements present.
if you truly believe people will reject stuff from the windows store, then Microsoft are never going to make that the only way of buying things. they will only do that if the windows store really takes off, which it might... but if you don't think it will then I don't see why you would be worried.
That wasn't my intention. I'm glad that the store exists purely because it had a game in it that I wanted to buy, that wasn't in the other stores. I only know that Valve rejected them, I do not pretend to know why they didn't pursue other avenues through which to release it.
For every naive person, there's another paranoid lunatic.
Haunted
Member
Apple does it, so MS copies. Convenience over control (ugh). I really don't like the direction MS is taking with this, but it's becoming increasingly clear to me that people like you and me are in the minority.
plagiarize
Banned
From past behavior I know that Microsoft will back away from something if it is soundly rejected by consumers. I also know that until it's a stated intention that we have no way of knowing if complaining about it is achieving anything.
That's what I keep saying. Microsoft has been the perfect example of the Embrace-Extend-Extinguish anti-competitive behaviour, going as far as almost killing web standards so their product would be the only one suitable for the web. This behaviour was so blatant and harmful that even Adobe (or was it Macromedia back then?) didn't want Windows to include native PDF reading in a fear they might do the same thing: extend the PDF standard to their own needs and then kill Adobe software for being "not compatible". And as I said in another thread, even though Firefox came to the rescue in the early 00's, we're starting the actual recovery from MS' practises about internet browsers more or less right now.
Of course I don't trust any practise coming from MS that could be considered remotely "monopolistic" or "anti-consumer". It's not "blind fanboy hate" or "FUD", at this point in the history of computering I would call it just "common sense".
CrazedProfessional
Member
Just owning Windows 8 gives MS a larger install base for metro apps.
Even if metro apps still don't sell well it makes it easier for MS to pull the rug out from the desktop in the next version.
ZombieSupaStar
Member
I think its the console warz personally. It made them into a benevolent dictator for the masses. They make the box that plays their Halos, or Call of Duties, or Maddens, or *insert game here*. Who cares if a buncha "virgin nerd loooosers" are riled up about it, what have they ever done? (besides everything).
No but it's not a locked down program enviroment, I can add anything I want to the metro interface and yes it doesn't have the fancy tile but it works just as fine.
I can also install anything I want to windows 8 and yes there are the apps that you can only get from the windows store but you can ignore that and use windows 8 like Windows 7.
I am not naive to Microsoft but I am also not blindly hating on something that isn't proving anything other than they are adding the windows store in.
I will not buy anything from it but I saw enough reasons to upgrade to windows 8 and so far I have no issues with it.
Bluemercury
Member
this.
Just because I am not sub humanly stupid does not make me paranoid!
Metro is a locked down program environment ffs!
Implying something? Because your arguments are getting less coherent, and much more needlessly aggressive.
It's making you paranoid, Metro as it stands right now isn't a locked down enviroment, You can add whatever icons you want to it and never use the Windows store right now.
I just don't see this automatically extrapilating to Windows 9 being locked down and everyone being forced to use the app store instead of how it is now.
No it is not, they are making an install base with windows 8.
Does no one remember the anti trust cases against MS?
PsihoPerihelion
Member
He's the Croteam CTO. That tells you quite a lot.
plagiarize
Banned
That doesn't follow to me. MS can attempt to pull the rug out whenever they want. Windows 8 has both environments because MS are *hoping* they can wean people off desktop apps. If they can't, they aren't going to drop the desktop.
When the hypothetical windows 9 comes out without support for desktop programs, do you really suppose its apps would be backwards compatible with Windows 8? that they wouldn't force Windows 8 owners away from the OS that had an open desktop?
they'll want to force Windows 8 owners to the new OS just as much as they'll want to force Windows 7 owners to it, because both can run all the same desktop software. it isn't about install base for people that could use metro apps that matters. it's install base of people that *do* use them and *don't* use desktop programs that matters.
that is what Microsoft will be watching. that is what Microsoft are hoping happens. they do not, if indeed their hope is to remove the desktop, want people to buy Windows 8 and just use the desktop.
The Abominable Snowman
Member
Apps dont use the metro UI per se. Its just delivered by the store.
Do you not even understand what a program environment is?
Just because you can use it for shortcuts to desktop programs does not mean Metro programs are not forced to go via the windows store!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Of cause apps will be backwards compatible!
It does not matter if an older version of windows supports both, they want new programs to only be viable on metro.
Anti trust cases where... they "locked out" competitive browsers? Is that the one you're referring to?
So I guess based on what you're saying, Microsoft will make full-fledged desktop games available through Metro only and thus keeping out games from competitor developers from having the same spotlight and hence their games will sell better than others?
KojiKnight
Member
I think this is easily one of those situations where if we (consumers) sit back and say and do nothing, that Microsoft would LOVE to take us down that path. I think their PC division looks at the x-box division and goes "I wish we could pull that off here..."
All the more reason we HAVE to put a stink about it now. Not because Microsoft currently has solid plans to do so, but because they might decide to if it doesn't look like there will be negative reaction. It's much easier to convince a company to not do something to begin with, then try and get them to change their minds once they have done something.
All the more reason we HAVE to put a stink about it now. Not because Microsoft currently has solid plans to do so, but because they might decide to if it doesn't look like there will be negative reaction. It's much easier to convince a company to not do something to begin with, then try and get them to change their minds once they have done something.
MS obfuscating or outright hiding access to OS APIs for competing programs for one. Remember MS getting in trouble for that?
To stay on the topic of games, do you think MS is going to give equal access and support to desktop developers with the one Metro developers (who will be paying them extra) are going to get? And not just now, but for the foreseeable future? The app store means that now MS is an active competitor to desktop developers. That MS has an actual financial incentive to make sure Metro apps sell more. They will turn their backs on billions of free money out of their desire to remain impartial? Especially since this whole Metro deal is expressly an effort in getting some of that walled garden customer lock-in that helps Apple swim in money?
ZombieSupaStar
Member
Why would they? Those devs already pay them to put a games on their console.
I know right. I wish I could still use DOS.
They already tried with Windows Vista / DX10. Didn't go nicely because they got the completely opposite result: instead of devs going forward DX10 and then DX11 naturally, they are still stuck on 32 bits DX9 development with DX10/11 being a rarity (and exclusive DX10/11 something exceptional, x64 executables being something almost exotic) because, thanks to this dickish move from MS trying to force people into a (at the time) buggy OS, people decided they would be staying in XP even going as far as downgrading their brand new Vista PCs.
Is that just failed snark or are these words supposed to mean something?
Failed snark I guess.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
When there are some users frothing at the mouth over how evil Windows 8 is, it's kind of hard to differentiate that fervor from genuine sarcasm. Yes, MS tried to force internet explorer on the world. They failed. Spectacularly so.
Alx
Member
After using windows 8 for a week now, I only see it as "windows 7 with additional metro features". Which is fine by me (would be finer if I had a tactile device to run it).
I can understand the concern of developers on systems getting less open, but I don't see how windows 8 should fuel that concern. The fact that it can be used exactly like seven (even for software development) is a good sign that MS doesn't intend to drop support for the desktop model.
I can understand the concern of developers on systems getting less open, but I don't see how windows 8 should fuel that concern. The fact that it can be used exactly like seven (even for software development) is a good sign that MS doesn't intend to drop support for the desktop model.