What's wrong with VF?
Fighting Games Weekly | December 10-16 | The roads are still safe from Justin Wong
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
What's wrong with VF?
FindMyFarms
Member
Nothing....but it's not the holy grail either. It's primarily an in your face rock/paper/scissors guessing game that's feels rigid. I've always favored games with an emphasis on movement and footsies, as I prefer the mind games that arise from those more, which is why I prefer Tekken in with 3d games and REALLY enjoyed pre-patch SC5. If Tekken didn't have a jacked up risk/reward with hop kicks and high crushes vs. pokes and lows, then I think it would be perfect. A kof analogy would be how in 13 the risk reward for jumpins vs. anti-air is pretty gnarly. Of course you have the exceptions with characters like vice that can get a full HD convert off an anti-air st. A but for the most part the game will favor the person swinging for the fences.
scytheavatar
Member
Uh....... did you watch ST this EVO?
Parallax Scroll
Banned
marlinpie
Those games you talk about also exist in VF. It's not as rigid as folks make it out to be.
You just don't have nonsensical hitboxes like you occasionally get in Tekken.
Moves like sabakis (Tekken has these also, just fewer/not as good) can get around guessing games.
That said VF isn't perfect- balance is a bit off, and side throw escape system is dumb. It just has fewer flaws than most other fighters.
FindMyFarms
Member
Yeah it has movement to an extent, but you just can't compare it to Tekken. Tekken movement is worldclass and takes years of mastery at the highest level. I mean >>look at this!<<
Hell no
I know how hard that is, I consider that a barrier and a drawback, not a benefit. I respect the skill, but it's not what I want in a game at all.
VF is what kept me in fighting games- why I was willing to go to NEC and put up with stuff I don't normally like. Every tournament I hit this year was entirely due to that game.
If the game died online I'd probably sell my PS3, and quit FG's (and probably stop posting here as well)
scytheavatar
Member
That's the problem. Watch it and try telling me that people don't love ST.
FindMyFarms
Member
I can kind of see where you're coming from. But like I said, that's at the highest level. The game's movement is definitely accessible though, you can get as much returns on investment in general tekken movement as you can from say, learning to move with mags in marvel 3.
As for it being a barrier/drawback, that's personal and I can't really blast you on it. But i've always put execution requirements into 2 categories, the arbitrary barriers that impede decision making ala 1-frame reversals in ST (i.e. - i know EXACTLY what you're going to do, but making the right read and being able to punish your predictability is going to be dependent on whether i hit this stupid reversal), and the type that allows you to expand your options ala movement in tekken/marvel, or just functional execution like seismo/tk feints with viper or run cancels with fuerte in AE. I find the latter to be more in the spirit of what excellence in execution should promote, and I think Tekken falls in that category.
I already know that random people love ST because they're sheep and don't know why without having to watch EVO. Also, you are NOT going to ever hear any negative things said about any game ever at EVO, that would hurt the brand. John Choi thinks ST is unfair and full of BS, but if he's a commentator at a capcom event obviously he's going to say good things about it.
By the way, you don't need to have Korean godlike movement or reaction to be successful in Tekken. Hell, even the last NEC champion was simply awful at breaking throws. Sure it helps, but I don't like to hear that you need years and years to be decent in this game, it scares people for nothing as it is not quite true.
FindMyFarms
Member
Agreed, I was just linking the upper-limits more as a showcase to what's possible, as opposed to required ala having to do 1 frame reversals on wakeup on ST
Yeah I saw that and was wondering why the hell he was getting thrown so much. Then again I don't know much about the local Tekken comm- I did enter a couple of Tekken tournies and couldn't throw the good locals for squat back in the day, and I mix up throws well.
My Tekken game is usually just trying to crush things left and right though, which is scrubby. (Asuka)
My opinion is if the majority of players can't do it, it's limiting.
I agree that many folks like ST because they're sheep, but that doesn't invalidate ST being a good game at high level (though I still think HDR > ST except for a couple of things because HDR cuts down on the limiting stupidity some)
FindMyFarms
Member
The sheeple aren't what invalidate it, it being a bad game is. Yeah, I'll never hesitate to call that game out lol.
Most FG's from that era didn't age well- SamSho II probably aged the best, and that has some really silly issues with hit detection and inputs.
Most Capcom games from the past - folks are blinded by nostalgia goggles, in 3S's case, most folks are blinded by the Evo Moment- if that hadn't happened, the game would have died hard.
TheThunder
Member
I didn't play 3S for the first time until 09 maybe early 2010 even though I saw the clip many years before that, yet I loved the game, so your theory doesn't hold up.
If you liked the DBZ "saiyan saga" trailer, here's the "making of" video. Very interesting stuff, a shame they had some issues.
FindMyFarms
Member
I enjoyed Quest 64, but I have no problem saying it's bad.
If you live in/near NorCal, isn't there a pretty healthy scene for Persona there?
TheThunder
Member
Good for you, I guess.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
3s is flawed Chun and Yun alone make the game flawed as shit. I still enjoy it though.
T.Hawk alone makes SF2 shit. Then you get into the area of Balrog/Vega/Dhalsim/Old sagat crap
Street fighter 4 is getting into shitty tier as well with the discovery of unblockables/1 frame block set ups.
Basicly pick your flavor of shit if you enjoy street fighter
T.Hawk alone makes SF2 shit. Then you get into the area of Balrog/Vega/Dhalsim/Old sagat crap
Street fighter 4 is getting into shitty tier as well with the discovery of unblockables/1 frame block set ups.
Basicly pick your flavor of shit if you enjoy street fighter
I like ST despite all the bullshit it has. Random damage, Random dizzy, instant throw, etc. It's very much a love or hate it kind of game, and I can't think of any fighting game without some level of flaw. I will say this though, I would rather play ST, deal with all that bullshit than play any version SFIV period.
Terareflection
Member
In KOF, mindless jumpins can get Ex-Supered ( lol Mr.Karate), or for even more damage cr.b-ed into HD or whatever for 30%-100%. It does favor offense, yeah, but don't AA is useless in that game.
MarkMan
loves Arcade Sticks
HDR fixes all of those things, though Rog didn't get fixed enough.
The best SF might actually be SFEX3.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
Neat
FindMyFarms
Member
Uhh did u read what I wrote after the bolded lol??? Also, it favors offense, but more specifically jump in offense.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
HDR breaks so much shit it's not even funny
FindMyFarms
Member
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
AE2012 over SSF4? idk x.x/
Other than Honda and Ryu's fake FB, what is worse in HDR over AE? Akuma doesn't count since he's banned in both.
TheThunder
Member
AE2012 > Super, easy, hell Vanilla over Super for me, yeah sure Super is way more balanced but I thought it was way too down back and defense/turtle play heavy.
AE2012>Vanilla>Super>AE2011
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
3S is the greatest most best game and if you disagree then you need to watch this video a few more times http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7cW2nMf1gk
TYVM
TYVM
FindMyFarms
Member
Well 2012 or super are both good, just not vanilla or ae.
Alpha3 without crouch cancel infinites is good too
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
The balance is even more out of wack, in SSF2T there is a mass group of bullshit kinda like mvc2 but not as bad. In HDR it's closer to 3s in terms of fucked up balance a lot of characters ended up getting fucked over.
Can I have some of what you are smoking cause GOD DYAM well that or you mained sagat. Liking SF4 over SSF4 then complaining about down backing makes no damn sense either. Seeing how there were just as many good offensive characters as defensive. That's on par with saying MvC1 is the best VS game :lol AE2011 and Vanilla are equally shitty
Alpha 3 is my favorite SF, I personally find Alpha 2 to be kinda ass
TheThunder
Member
Not really, they nerfed the overall damage of everything and it made the game slower and more turtly, also there was a shitton more timeouts.
Again when it comes to balance, Super has that free, but balance /= fun and I had more fun with vanilla.
Also, no way there were as much offensive characters as defense. It was Bison, Chun, Dhalsim , Guile galore (to name a few).
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
I have Alpha 3 on GBA that had Yun in it.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I had the psp one with the unused character x.x
TheThunder
Member
Sagat was not in top 8 in EVO 09, oh shit he wasn't even top tier ?!
Mike Ross made it to top 4 with Honda at an EVO, I don't need any more evidence than that.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Considering how he was way better at sf and obviously played a lot more back then that's not too shocking. I don't see how that's proof against ssf4.
Well hello there Sagat user.
Wasn't that ssf4 tho? Where Honda was "top tier" yet he lost to almost all the top tiers?
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Terareflection
Member
Yes, you said that certain characters can get great damage off an antiair, I was just saying everyone can get great damage off a cr.b antiair or an ex super.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Lol Henry Cen.
He might be an Akuma player. <3 vanilla Akuma.
I think Super is still the best one. Then again I'm biased towards charge characters.
A2 without Valle CC's is pretty good as well. The versions that fixed those things each got shunned though for various reasons.
Really, Alpha was the series that could have used a remix/revision more than ST, and Sirlin wanted to do an A2 or A3 remix over a ST remix, but Capcom insisted on a SF2 port to promote SF4.
TheThunder
Member
Proof against what ?
The game was good and fun, but it lent to the defensive kinda of play style, this is not exactly something new I'm pulling up here. I remember people complaining about seeing more timeouts in streams back then.
Also, if you want to do a evo list comparison, why don't you pull the top 32 of evo 2011 on AE2011, you know, the expansion the focused on rush down and shit ton of damage and watch all those hondas, guiles, chuns and giefs disappear.
Akuma/Ryu player actually, which is probably worse.