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[Tyrone_Biggums]

Considering how behind America is in Broadband deployment, I'd say those people in rural markets might just miss this console generation

No doubt the US has a long way to go in developing the net infrastructure. My wish is the government develops some kind of mandate that requires high speed access, speed increases across the board, and hopefully subsidizes these developments so that we can catch up to other countries. The world's going digital and there's no reason the US can't help lead the way.

 

[Raxus]

Please tell me that you're joking, and you're not really this disgusting.

They should think of more affordable hobbies. Like hoops and sticks.

Spoiler

/Abe Simpson

 

[AlphaDragoon]

If MS actually does this dumb shit, and Sony follows them...I'll be Wii U/PC only this gen.

Thanks Nintendo, for not doing this.

 

[Mononoke]

... I think I've massively misunderstood you. Are you for used games, or against?

Spoiler

I'm for.

I'm for used games.

But my bigger issue was the online/DRM crap.

 

[whitehawk]

I'd also like to mention that internet is not reliable. Internet can go down. Mine does every once in a while. Would suck if I couldn't play games because the internet is borked.

 

[jetsetfluken]

Always online? If it helps curb achievement cheating completely, I'm all for it.
But I have a feeling it won't help protect against manipulation of that and only cause DRM-related things.

Achievements that can only be earned with locked "online savedata"...and that data cannot be transferred or backed up anywhere but Microsoft's proprietary cloud. It's not stored on your hard drive. If you want to back up locally, it would become "offline data" and achievements couldn't be unlocked. People who don't care about achievements wouldn't have to worry then. Also, somehow, your Profile wouldn't be able to be backed up locally/transferred to PC. It would rid all the manipulation. I hope this idea of mine (which I've detailed in a previous post) is implemented in some way.

Can the Achievement system finally be what it intended to be? Fully showing what someone has done in games, without any of it lying. Right now, you can't be sure sometimes due to cheating.

 

[BobTheFork]

God fucking damnit. I'm really not holding out hopw that Sony isn't going to follow suit. If they do then I don't think I can deal with it.

I don't that much about used games but the only other option is to just wait until it's super cheap and if there isn't a used games market they will keep the price higher for a long fucking time.

 

[Dreaver]

Before the rumors from Orbis/Durango was starting I was 100% in the Microsoft camp (I have both a X360 and PS3 though). Now the more rumors are out the more I'm leaning towards PS3.. ugh. I seriously doubt this will happen though (always on).

If it IS true, and Sony releases a decent controller I'll probably get a PS4 instead of the new Xbox.

 

[So Many Bullets]

Fuck this anti-consumer bullshit. Gamers continue to be taken advantage of.

 

[Earendil]

You guys talking about carrying your consoles ... I am fairly positive the game will be tied to an account and not a console. Just log in on your friends Durango.

What if my friend has a game I want to borrow. Lots of people swap games all the time. This would kill that.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

Please, today it's easier than ever to know in advance if you'll like a game or not. There are videos, demos, reviews....

And please let's not forget that gaming was always an expensive hobby, so I don't really get that "some people don't have a lot of money" argument. It doesn't make any sense at all.

Two things: The amount of money required to flow into the games industry just to keep it stable these days is far greater than it was in previous decades. In short, we have to buy a shit-ton of games if we want the same publishers to keep publishing.

Secondly, "games are cheaper today than ever" is reductive to the point of meaninglessness. Yes, MSRP for a lot of games in the 90s were $70 or more. But we weren't expected to buy as many games! And far more things are competing for our dollars now. The same demographics most likely to buy video games are also paying a cell phone bill every month, a not-insignificant number of which are likely $80 or more. Gas has soared well past the inflation rate since the 90s. Wages are flat since the 90s. Yes, games are "cheaper" but there is less money available to buy them.

 

[Foffy]

I said it before an I´ll say it again.


Nobody had a problem when you sold your games to your friends or on eBay.


It became a problem when Gamestop made their core business out of it. Walk into a Gamestop and try to buy a new game today - it´s almost impossible!

They almost wont let you!

Gamestop is to blame for this and no one else.


Don´t contribute to a RIP (insert dead dev) thread and defend used games.


I expect 10€ activation keys and I think it´s fair and OK.

I for one never minded online passes as a fee to combat used sales. I figure if a consumer is going down the route of a used game to purchase, they're already getting it at a cheaper price, so if they want to play online they have to pay a little more, hopefully still less than what it would cost new. My issue with online passes is if/when they become account based. I have a brother, and we sometimes overlap the games we play. Are companies really going to be fucking crazy enough to expect me and him to buy two separate copies of each game? That's my fear.

As a PC gamer I am used to this.
But all it will mean is even more piracy.

If this is a side effect, I can't even be mad at it. I find it hard to justify piracy at all, but when you take the options away from a consumer, you do make piracy a stronger alternative.

 

[Eideka]

No second hand games I can see that becoming a reality but always online ? No.

 

[plutoknight]

Always online? If it helps curb achievement cheating completely, I'm all for it.

Achievements that can only be earned with locked "online savedata"...and that data cannot be transferred or backed up anywhere but Microsoft's proprietary cloud. It's not stored on your hard drive. If you want to back up locally, it would become "offline data" and achievements couldn't be unlocked. People who don't care about achievements wouldn't have to worry then. it would rid all the manipulation. I hope this idea of mine (which I've detailed in a previous post) is implemented in some way.

Can the Achievement system finally be what it intended to be? Fully showing what someone has done in games, without any of it lying. Right now, you can't be sure sometimes due to cheating.

And so those of us who don't care about achievements get punished?

 

[richiek]

Best believe if Microsoft is moving forward with this its because the software companies assured Micro that Sony was on board as well. They wont put themselves out to dry like that.

Is it wrong for me to wish for another video game crash if both MS and Sony adopt this business model?

 

[Raxus]

What if my friend has a game I want to borrow. Lots of people swap games all the time. This would kill that.

You have no friends. Xbox consumes all. Xbox is your friend now.

 

[NervousXtian]

I'd add in, it's apparent that a lot of people who trade in games really only value their new games at about $20-30 - they pay the initial $60, but only on the expectation that they'll get back $30-$40 of that. Then you have price sensitive consumers, who buy new, but wait for a price drop. Then again, you have price sensitive consumers who buy used. The pool of people who are willing to buy a brand new $60 release, and then let it sit pristine on their bookshelves (presumably the same people that buy collector/special editions) is very small compared to people who just aren't willing to consistently pay 60 bucks for ~8-12 hours of entertainment.

The obvious lesson from this is that a lot of games are overpriced and need to come down to $20-$30. The lesson the publishers took is fuck price sensitive consumers, we're entitled to $60 and we'll force everyone to give us that much.

Can you please show me the data that backs this up? Where the market of people who buy new games and don't resell is "very small".

Pretty sure you have no data to back that up.

 

[Seik]

I wasn't planning to buy it at launch, but now I won't even buy later.

Wow.

 

[Sidewinder]

Obviously if you rely on the pre-owned market to play games and have basic broadband you aren't going to enjoy the Xbox, but in a snobbish way i don't think you should be gaming if you can't afford it.

Yeah I hate those poor peasants too!!1

 

[Pociask]

Please, today it's easier than ever to know in advance if you'll like a game or not. There are videos, demos, reviews....

And please let's not forget that gaming was always an expensive hobby, so I don't really get that "some people don't have a lot of money" argument. It doesn't make any sense at all.

I don't know why you "don't get" the some people don't have a lot of money argument.

How can I break this down... hmmm... some people... do not... have... a lot... of money?

BLS breaks down spending by "Consumer units" which can include single adults, couples, and families. The average spending per consumer unit in America on entertainment was about $2,600, or a little more than $216 a month. If you're in a family of four, that's 50 bucks per person per month for ALL entertainment spending. And that's on a mean average, not a median. Broken down by quintile, 60% of Americans spend 2100 a year on entertainment - 40% spend $1600 a year, and 1 out of 5 consumer units spends less than a $1000 a month on entertainment. If you have $100 a month for entertainment for a family of 4, or even $200, it's hard to justify a $60 video game.

 

[scar tissue]

Hahahahahaha If Sony implements its bullshit second hand game patent I may be skipping next gen entirely.

You'll probably have to skip all the consoles from now on if that happens.
Unless the backlash is severe, which it won't be - consumers gobble up any kind of shit as long as they get their shootbang, Sony/MS will keep it for the generations to come, and Nintendo may very well adopt it too.

 

[Derrick01]

HAHA Microsoft R DOOMED! Am I don't it right? Seriously this is the same on pcs so don't try to act like it isn't. If xbox is doing this then I'm sure PS is as well. I'm sure developers have let them know either do it or we go exclusive to the console that does....it would make alot of sense. At least at the end of the day this might kill gamestop and stop preorder bonuses

Spoiler

JK this probably will suck but I don't think its true.

It is exactly like PC. But the big question is will I be getting Steam/Amazon/GMG quality deals on Live and PSN? Recent history says no, especially if this happens and publishers get even more control.

Although the last Sony sale had promising prospects for the future with the deals that were in place. The problem is all the really good deals were on Sony's own games ($10 LBP Karting, $5 total for Ratchet and Jak HD) , so it shows that most 3rd party publishers are still resisting this.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

I'm for used games.

But my bigger issue was the online/DRM crap.

Yeah the always online thing just feasibly isn't consumer friendly/possible. Unless you're sure that all your competitors will approach it the same way, you are going to bomb. Massively.

 

[Kifimbo]

Always online? If it helps curb achievement cheating completely, I'm all for it.

Achievements that can only be earned with locked "online savedata"...and that data cannot be transferred or backed up anywhere but Microsoft's proprietary cloud. It's not stored on your hard drive. If you want to back up locally, it would become "offline data" and achievements couldn't be unlocked. People who don't care about achievements wouldn't have to worry then. it would rid all the manipulation. I hope this idea of mine (which I've detailed in a previous post) is implemented in some way.

Can the Achievement system finally be what it intended to be? Fully showing what someone has done in games, without any of it lying. Right now, you can't be sure sometimes due to cheating.

W..h.at? Oh, you're joking.

 

[CambriaRising]

Always online? If it helps curb achievement cheating completely, I'm all for it.

Achievements that can only be earned with locked "online savedata"...and that data cannot be transferred or backed up anywhere but Microsoft's proprietary cloud. It's not stored on your hard drive. If you want to back up locally, it would become "offline data" and achievements couldn't be unlocked. People who don't care about achievements wouldn't have to worry then. it would rid all the manipulation. I hope this idea of mine (which I've detailed in a previous post) is implemented in some way.

Can the Achievement system finally be what it intended to be? Fully showing what someone has done in games, without any of it lying. Right now, you can't be sure sometimes due to cheating.

Yeah they should totay screw everyone so that someone's e-dick points actually matter.

 

[Minions]

Always online? If it helps curb achievement cheating completely, I'm all for it.

Achievements that can only be earned with locked "online savedata"...and that data cannot be transferred or backed up anywhere but Microsoft's proprietary cloud. It's not stored on your hard drive. If you want to back up locally, it would become "offline data" and achievements couldn't be unlocked. People who don't care about achievements wouldn't have to worry then. it would rid all the manipulation. I hope this idea of mine (which I've detailed in a previous post) is implemented in some way.

Can the Achievement system finally be what it intended to be? Fully showing what someone has done in games, without any of it lying. Right now, you can't be sure sometimes due to cheating.

I don't know if it is to curb cheating as much as it is to promote their "Vision" for the console. They are trying to make the xbox a all in one console. Use it as a set top box/DVR, use it as a PC, use it as a gaming console. The more they "require" always online, the more gold subscriptions they can get. Right now most of their consoles remain offline, which means they are not enticed into purchasing a gold sub. Once they are online, it becomes a lot easier to sell them a gold sub.

 

[Raxus]

Always online? If it helps curb achievement cheating completely, I'm all for it.

Really now? Your biggest concern is online e-peen?

 

[enzo_gt]

That's completely ignoring the importance on the PC of Steam, GOG.com, and direct access to indie developers stores. Windows 8 could be a hint going towards a walled garden ecosystem with one gate keeper instead of the free environment we have now, but until then, PC remains the most open platform for gaming.

Who cares if it's important and works for indies if the third parties who make the blockbuster titles don't care? I'm not arguing PC isn't the most open platform; I think it will always be. But you can't ignore the fact that this will only encourage PC multiplat titles to take the same route as their console brethren.

You make it seem as thought DIII is a normal occurrence in PC gaming; unless Steam is too terribly intrusive on you, DRM as a whole is a fucking non-issue

DIII isn't the only example, but look at the numbers it did. It shows that the model works for AAA titles, because as much as we argue about rights and shit on forums, people will still buy into it.

And DRM is NOT a non-issue when everytime Ubi puts something out on PC with draconian DRM, gamers pull out their pitchforks. And it's not a non-issue when publishers make announcements just to mention their game has no DRM, which puts some gamers on their knees and makes them praise a publisher for not using DRM. These wouldn't be cases if it was a non-issue.

 

[Camp Lo]

Always online? If it helps curb achievement cheating completely, I'm all for it.
But I have a feeling it won't help protect against manipulation of that and only cause DRM-related things.

Achievements that can only be earned with locked "online savedata"...and that data cannot be transferred or backed up anywhere but Microsoft's proprietary cloud. It's not stored on your hard drive. If you want to back up locally, it would become "offline data" and achievements couldn't be unlocked. People who don't care about achievements wouldn't have to worry then. Also, somehow, your Profile wouldn't be able to be backed up locally/transferred to PC. It would rid all the manipulation. I hope this idea of mine (which I've detailed in a previous post) is implemented in some way.

Can the Achievement system finally be what it intended to be? Fully showing what someone has done in games, without any of it lying. Right now, you can't be sure sometimes due to cheating.

LOL GODDAMN!

 

[FunnyBunny]

People keep using the statistics that people offline won't be able to take advantage of the new console. This system is prepping for the future. Will these consumers lack of connectivity online increase or decrease in the coming years? They might not be a part of first adopters, but the likelihood that they continue to lack internet access in the future decreases, not increases. At some point, the majority of consumers will be online, all the time.

I agree with this in principle.

That said, I had access to high-speed internet in 2001 (my first apartment). Despite 12 years of technological advancement, a third of Americans still to not have high-speed internet. That is tens-of-millions of people.

Adoption will continue to grow. But I do not believe it will be at the rate some people on this board believe, and while I fully expect Microsoft (and Sony) to eventually push an online-only console in the future, I do not believe the time is now.

Both companies desperately need customers.

 

[Version 3.0]

I can understand that people with less money and data caps will get fucked over this.

It has absolutely nothing to do with money or data caps. I spend a ridiculous amount of money on games. Money is no object. I have no data cap that I know of. Not an issue.

The issue is, I want to own what I buy (and don't even get me started on EULA BS). I want to loan games to my friends if I choose. I want my son to use my games on his console in his room - why in the world should we have to buy two?

This has nothing to do with digital and everything to do with DRM. For physical products, this is clearly, 100% illegal. No one can sell you a chair, or shoes, or a TV and then dictate what you may or may not do with it. Only in the shitty world of software have the lawyers found a grey area to circumvent the law and reasonable, common sense rights. And I won't stand for it.

 

[EdibleExplosives]

Always online? If it helps curb achievement cheating completely, I'm all for it.
But I have a feeling it won't help protect against manipulation of that and only cause DRM-related things.

Achievements that can only be earned with locked "online savedata"...and that data cannot be transferred or backed up anywhere but Microsoft's proprietary cloud. It's not stored on your hard drive. If you want to back up locally, it would become "offline data" and achievements couldn't be unlocked. People who don't care about achievements wouldn't have to worry then. Also, somehow, your Profile wouldn't be able to be backed up locally/transferred to PC. It would rid all the manipulation. I hope this idea of mine (which I've detailed in a previous post) is implemented in some way.

Can the Achievement system finally be what it intended to be? Fully showing what someone has done in games, without any of it lying. Right now, you can't be sure sometimes due to cheating.

I didn't know anyone actually gave a fuck about gamerscore anymore. Although, my sarcasm detection might be fucked.

 

[tinfoilhatman]

If this is true chances are both PS4 and Durango will not be used games friendly.

 

[btkadams]

Never understood why people are so against this. Always online is not a problem whatsoever in this day and age. I don't think my Internet connection has gone off in like 2 years. No second-hand games, well Steam has been doing it for years.

PSN hack.


you've really never had your internet go down?

 

[TheJollyCorner]

I would be really surprised if MS follows through with this. It just seems like the backlash from consumers would be too significant...


If Sony comes out on the 20th, confirms the PS4 does not have to be online constantly and does not restrict second-hand games, I have to believe MS will follow suit and change any plans they have contrary to that.


Crazy.

 

[Pociask]

Can you please show me the data that backs this up? Where the market of people who buy new games and don't resell is "very small".

Pretty sure you have no data to back that up.

Walk into a video game store a week after a major game releases. See the many traded in copies.

Or, read all the publishers crying like babies about how used games are killing them.

Of course I don't have exact data, but you wouldn't see either of those things if the majority of gamers kept their games. Gamestop wouldn't be a viable business, for that matter.

Would it be better if I said small, instead of very small? Or minority?

 

[Gahiggidy]

PC + Wii U = FTW

 

[Delusibeta]

Always online? If it helps curb achievement cheating completely, I'm all for it.
But I have a feeling it won't help protect against manipulation of that and only cause DRM-related things.

Achievements that can only be earned with locked "online savedata"...and that data cannot be transferred or backed up anywhere but Microsoft's proprietary cloud. It's not stored on your hard drive. If you want to back up locally, it would become "offline data" and achievements couldn't be unlocked. People who don't care about achievements wouldn't have to worry then. Also, somehow, your Profile wouldn't be able to be backed up locally/transferred to PC. It would rid all the manipulation. I hope this idea of mine (which I've detailed in a previous post) is implemented in some way.

Can the Achievement system finally be what it intended to be? Fully showing what someone has done in games, without any of it lying. Right now, you can't be sure sometimes due to cheating.

If there's one thing we learned from Diablo 3, it's that always-online DRM does nothing to prevent cheating.

 

[SaggyMonkey]

Bobby Kotick has always supported the second-hand game market.

I'm curious to see what the other implications are. Maybe they've seen what can happen on all of these Steam sales and will let publishers change their prices at will. I hardly buy used modern games anyway (different story when you're looking for old genesis games or whatever), but if suddenly consoles had these Steam-like bottom-out sales or went for an on-or-off rate like cable tv channels it might not be so bad.

 

[CambriaRising]

I didn't know anyone actually gave a fuck about gamerscore anymore.

Biggest issue in the industry right now.

 

[Duxxy3]

There is no chance in hell i would buy that.

 

[SteveWinwood]

I didn't know anyone actually gave a fuck about gamerscore anymore.

get sum hardcor friends braw

gaf is for newbs and casuals

 

[GayForMaster]

Unlike Nintendo, Microsoft is continuing to invest heavily in motion-control interfaces, and a new, more reliably responsive Kinect will also ship alongside the next Xbox. Sony’s next-generation console camera system is said to have a similar set of features, and is expected to be discussed at the company’s PlayStation event on February 20.

Well... microsoft can go fuck themselves. Maybe I'll invest in a Wii U for next gen.

 

[Tyrone_Biggums]

It is exactly like PC. But the big question is will I be getting Steam/Amazon/GMG quality deals on Live and PSN? Recent history says no, especially if this happens and publishers get even more control.

Although the last Sony sale had promising prospects for the future with the deals that were in place. The problem is all the really good deals were on Sony's own games ($10 LBP Karting, $5 total for Ratchet and Jak HD) , so it shows that most 3rd party publishers are still resisting this.

If the new consoles curb piracy and second hand sales, I would be surprised if we didn't see more sales for games, especially in the digital distribution front. Developers and publishes lose less money through the second hand market and are more willing to sale at a reduced cost. Just my opinion.

 

[DopeyFish]

Explain XBLA and PSN pricing. Not even comparable to Steam and they have no retail/used competition.

XBLA is an afterthought same with games on demand

Afaik developers can't change prices on a dime for sales or anything

It wasn't built as a primary marketplace

It still has a lot of room to grow in that regard

 

[alr1ght]

Nintendo being inept at online is a blessing.

 

[Tymerend]

Always online would also be a deal breaker for me for consoles, if the consoles have to be online for every single game. At least with PC games, if my online crashes, I have a number of games I can play offline.

 

[alphaNoid]

Fuck this anti-consumer bullshit. Gamers continue to be taken advantage of.

Gaming isn't a human right, its a voluntary hobby you participate in. Companies do not owe you anything and nobody is taking advantage of you.

If the new consoles curb piracy and second hand sales, I would be surprised if we didn't see more sales for games, especially in the digital distribution front. Developers and publishes lose less money through the second hand market and are more willing to sale at a reduced cost. Just my opinion.

Agree

 

[Mononoke]

W..h.at? Oh, you're joking.

Achievement cheating - more important to stop that, then making sure everyone can buy your system and play games on it.

Sounds like some counter-intuitive security bullshit in the U.S. after 9/11.

 

[Raxus]

PSN hack.


you've really never had your internet go down?

Not just PSN, I got my xbox account hacked and was down for a month. Guess what, I could still play games at least.