CoD “has almost ruined a generation of shooter players” - Tripwire

Roche said:
My love of shooters has sort of been killed off by the whole unlock through level up thing COD introduced. I've always liked the idea of both teams starting off on an even playing field in shooter games like in Halo games before Reach and pretty much every other shooter.

I think it's fine that Call of Duty has a system where you can unlock stuff and level up, it works really well for that type of game. My only problem with it is the influence that it seems to have over all other games in the genre. Now I can't play a game without dealing with other players spawning with different loadouts so that they might have an advantage or disadvantage based entirely off what they choose in a lobby menu.
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This is my main issue with shooters post COD4. Even if some games have easy, no skill shooting, at least everyone is on a level playing field.

You used to play games longer to get better. Today, you get better PLUS you get better gear. It's completely backwards.
 
ConvenientBox said:
Wow sometimes Gaf, halo changed the FPS scene for the better. I've never had so much fun playing with friends than halo 1 and 2 and I grew up playing quake, cs and every other shooter.
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I disagree. The point and shoot/online/lol whatever fps scene? Yeah fair enough. But FPS games can be so much more...and were...before Halo.
 
And the way you compress the skill gap as a designer is you add a whole bunch of randomness. A whole bunch of weaponry that doesn’t require any skill to get kills. Random spawns, massive cone fire on your weapons. Lots of devices that can get kills with zero skill at all, and you know, it’s kind of smart to compress your skill gap to a degree. You don’t want the elite players to destroy the new players so bad that new players can never get into the game and enjoy it. I’m looking at you, Dota. [laughs] Sorry.
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And im looking at you, RO2.
 
I think the Tripwire guy mispoke a bit.

Call of Duty and Halo should be given their due for bringing shooters to consoles and making them work, in doing so however, they put a lot of pressure on other developers to homogenize their game mechanics. To use a music analogy, think about what a refreshing change from mainstream music Nirvana was in 1991 and then think about the shitty imitators that followed them trying to cash in on grunge (if you can remember any of them).

I mean, there is space for COD-style games but I would like more shooters that don't follow the mold two weapon, regenerating health and in scripted sequences trifecta of FPS mechanics.
 
alr1ght said:
This is my main issue with shooters post COD4. Even if some games have easy, no skill shooting, at least everyone is on a level playing field.

You used to play games longer to get better. Today, you get better PLUS you get better gear. It's completely backwards.
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A level 1 cod player can beat a level 80 no problem, its not hard, and never has been.
 
I think Dota has proved that you can make a game with a nearly limitless skill ceiling, that makes no attempt to cater to new players, and still have it become a worldwide hit.

Red Orchestra 2's problem was that it took like 8 months for them to fix it after release. It launched in such a mess that they couldn't even pull in Red Orchestra 1 fans, let alone convert Call of Duty fans. It's a shame, because it is now one of the best multiplayer shooters ever made, but everyone moved on before it got to that point.
 
No kidding they were almost ruined. Now we can't have heavy controls because there's 'lag', which is total BS. KZ3 was a step down from KZ2. And I don't mean the input lag as the time it takes the game to react to an action the player makes, but the feel itself of the gun. It took me weeks to get used to those new controls. I don't even want to imagine how people will react to games like The Last of Us that seem to use a heavier camera control instead of those snappy controls that appear as if the character weighted only 5 fucking kilograms.
 
toddhunter said:
I disagree. The point and shoot/online/lol whatever fps scene? Yeah fair enough. But FPS games can be so much more...and were...before Halo.
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Pretty much anything you want in an FPS is out there. Halo (and COD for that matter) added some new elements, but shooters in whatever your preferred stlye is never stopped existing. They may have fallen out of fashion, but they are still around!
 
Dax01 said:
So you have no response to what I wrote?

I clicked the title because the subject matter was of interest, even though I don't care too much about CoD as a franchise. I do, however, think people are wrong to blame any CoD game in particular (they should blame its success and the tendency of developers to copy each other).
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My response to your questions was in the first post you quoted of mine. Halo 2 popularized some aspects that I don't like. I am blaming it's success and the tendency of developers to copy each other.

I do, on the other hand, care about Halo, and what's being said about Halo 1 and Halo 2 by you and others is ridiculous. That's why I commented.
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Halo is not a person and doesn't have feelings so you shouldn't feel butthurt when someone targets it with criticism.
 
Thankfully, we still have three Counter-Strike games *always* in the top 10 most played games on Steam.

All is not lost! :)
 
rCIZZLE said:
My response to your questions was in the first post you quoted of mine. Halo 2 popularized some aspects that I don't like. I am blaming it's success and the tendency of developers to copy each other.
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You're blaming its success now. Before you were just blaming Halo 2.
Halo is not a person and doesn't have feelings so you shouldn't feel butthurt when someone targets it with criticism.
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What you were saying wasn't criticism.
 
I felt Killzone 2 suffered from this. People were very critical about how the aiming felt, and that it needed to be instant, like in COD. I liked it, I thought it helped to add a feeling of weight and mass to it.

Well, in the end they added an option to make it instant and you were better off playing with it online cause effectively it was a buff.
 
Poimandres said:
Pretty much anything you want in an FPS is out there. Halo (and COD for that matter) added some new elements, But shooters in whatever your preferred stlye is never stopped existing. They may have fallen out of fashion, but they are still around!
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Where is the shooter that follows up from System Shock 2 and expands on the gameplay elements with 15 years of new ideas and mechanics?

The answer is everything was "stream lined". First to be like Halo, now to be like COD. It'll happen to COD fans too one day. Circle of life.
 
Most of the things COD did ruin are relative to single player. Multi player wise top players dominate as usual, at least for what limited experience i have since the Modern Warfare Games and on.
 
Juan29.zapata said:
No kidding they were almost ruined. Now we can't have heavy controls because there's 'lag', which is total BS. KZ3 was a step down from KZ2. And I don't mean the input lag as the time it takes the game to react to an action the player makes, but the feel itself of the gun. It took me weeks to get used to those new controls. I don't even want to imagine how people will react to games like The Last of Us that seem to use a heavier camera control instead of those snappy controls that appear as if the character weighted only 5 fucking kilograms.
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Not sure but i can swing around a 5kg plate pretty easy with one hand. Im not a gun shopter but reckon an AR you can gold with hands doesn't weight more then a kg of 7 so a trainer soldier can probably do it as in cod on consoles.
 
njean777 said:
A level 1 cod player can beat a level 80 no problem, its not hard, and never has been.
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That's not really the point I was trying to make. It doesn't matter whether or not a low level player can beat a high level player with better unlocks. The problem I have with it is that it adds a level of randomness that comes entirely from outside the game.

Take Halo 3 for example, on a symmetrical map both teams start out evenly, everyone has the same chance to get to weapons/powerups nobody has any difference from other players. This means that you will either win or lose the game based entirely on the decisions you and your team makes in game. Neither the map nor any loadouts will change that outcome for better or worse.

I saw someone once compare it to a game of Chess, even playing field, same capabilities no outside elements added in.

I'm not saying the CoD approach is wrong or anything, far from it I actually think it's fun and enjoyable. What I'm trying to say is I don't think EVERY game needs to be CoD-like.
 
I think I need to ask: then why do I suck so much at Call of Duty?

My KDR is like 0.6 in Modern Warfare 3. I've never gotten a kill streak beyond a UAV before. I think I got a helicopter once in COD4.

Is it because I mainly stick to assault rifles and sub machine guns? Does playing on PC make that much of a difference?

Hell, from what little I've played I might actually get better at RO2 than COD.
 
cluto said:
Well that proves it. SCIENCE.
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More recent halo games have had a larger "metagame" but the first 3 were very basic "dumbed down" Arena style shooter. Reach's inclusion of loadouts changed that.

Knowing where the weapons are on a map or what strong points exist on a map is hardly "metagame."
 
So then use COD as the baseline with its ultra-responsive controls, low lag and solid weapon 'feel' and then start to widen the skill gap a bit, reduce the randomness slightly, etc and make a slightly more realistic game. The point isn't to suddenly create a completely different experience; you need to give people a new experience but something they're comfortable with.
 
toddhunter said:
Where is the shooter that follows up from System Shock 2 or Deus Ex and expands on the gameplay elements with 15 years of new ideas and mechanics?

The answer is everything was "stream lined". First to be like Halo, now to be like COD. It'll happen to COD fans too one day. Circle of life.
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This is determined by sales mainly. It's sad, but it's true.

I don't think this has much to do with Halo though. When it launched, it had some of the best AI in any shooter and introduced battles in large open areas with vehicles in the mix. In some ways it added more complexity to shooters than was the norm.

It's also much harder to make a game with that level of complexity these days because of how much games cost to produce. Generally speaking, games don't have as much content anymore and until there are some radical new methods introduced to drastically reduce the costs associated with game development I doubt it's going to change anytime soon.

That said, System Shock 2 was well and truly streamlined compared to the original. Some people weren't happy about it at the time. I don't think making a games interface accessible is necessarily a bad thing.
 
Dax01 said:
Wasn't using it here. If that's what you meant you should've been clearer. You're backtracking!
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Pretty clear that I was speaking about the success there too. Had Halo been a cult shooter I really doubt it would get any credit for inspiring some changes in the genre.

You were primarily blaming the game for concepts it has in other shooters. That's not its fault. That's not criticizing.
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I'm showing disapproval for some aspects of the game. Pretty sure that falls under criticism.
 
Strange, I stopped playing RO2 because it was hacked to shit within the first 24 hours of launch.

It was also buggy as hell.

I was totally hyped for the game for months.
 
I really liked bf143 for putting the player in front a simple decision: smg, rifle, sniper.

No perks, no shit, no killstreaks... it was more "equal" than any other bf =/ and it was on console.

I would pay 20$ for a mini-cod xbla/psn/steam with the same gameplay mechanics but like 3/4 single weapon classes to choose from, no perks and shit.
 
Booshka said:
I didn't see your face on a Dr Pepper bottle.
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Lol.

I mean, I don't mean to rag on the game, but when using "metagame" Halo really isn't the best example of that.

If you want to talk about that, talk about something like Tribes, I played that game for 7 years and competitively for 3 years.
 
njean777 said:
A level 1 cod player can beat a level 80 no problem, its not hard, and never has been.
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Yeah, because somehow, even though it's technically impossible, everyone has a 3/1 KD ratio in CoD... right?

People saying being good at CoD requires no skill are full of shit.

This kind of hyperbole benefits no one.
 
rCIZZLE said:
Pretty clear that I was speaking about the success there too. Had Halo been a cult shooter I really doubt it would get any credit for inspiring some changes in the genre.
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No, it wasn't very clear. If it had been you wouldn't have been blaming the game in your follow-up reply. In that, you blamed its success then blamed the success on the game. It would have been better to say, "Well, it's not Halo 2's fault per-se, but its success..."
I'm showing disapproval for some aspects of the game. Pretty sure that falls under criticism.
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I said primarily. The main point of the post I originally quoted was to blame Halo 2 for stuff you don't like in other games. That's not criticism.
 
phosphor112 said:
More recent halo games have had a larger "metagame" but the first 3 were very basic "dumbed down" Arena style shooter. Reach's inclusion of loadouts changed that.

Knowing where the weapons are on a map or what strong points exist on a map is hardly "metagame."
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I don't think you understand what metagame actually means in the context of Halo.
 
phosphor112 said:
Lol.

I mean, I don't mean to rag on the game, but when using "metagame" Halo really isn't the best example of that.

If you want to talk about that, talk about something like Tribes, I played that game for 7 years and competitively for 3 years.
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Halo has a metagame. Your limited knowledge of the game betrays you in this discussion, it is clear to see. Despite what your honed local-level skills may have allowed you to think, you are out of your depth on this one.
 
NervousXtian said:
Yeah, because somehow, even though it's technically impossible, everyone has a 3/1 KD ratio in CoD... right?

People saying being good at CoD requires no skill are full of shit.

This kind of hyperbole benefits no one.
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Yeah, but the skill needed is basically nothing compared to a skill based shooter.

If you are good, you are rewarded and aid to be even better. And that's dumb. And i got 2.5 k/d on mw3, but it takes very little skill to achieve that compared to, for example, be an average player on cs.

Ramirez said:
Halo is babby's first bullet sponge simulator. How many assault rifle bullets can a guy take before dying?!
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Oh, god.
 
cluto said:
I don't think you understand what metagame actually means in the context of Halo.
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What's so hard about it? Weapon adaptation to environments and situation is standard for any shooter. Same for level navigation, which includes player boosts, rocket jumps or what have you to take short cuts and get stronghold advantages. Weapons only spawn in specific locations as do power ups and vehicles. That's pretty much what Unreal Tournament does (minus the speed). Oh, and Halo 3 has equipment pick ups. If you want to include the strategy that goes into team based modes, you can, but that's a given in any team based game.
 
phosphor112 said:
Lol.

I mean, I don't mean to rag on the game, but when using "metagame" Halo really isn't the best example of that.

If you want to talk about that, talk about something like Tribes, I played that game for 7 years and competitively for 3 years.
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I think it's disingenuous to imply that competitive Halo takes "zero skill" at the highest levels of gameplay there's a huge amount of teamwork necessary to control a map and to track the enemy team.

I'm not sure if you realize it but there's a lot more going on under the surface. Timing weapon spawns, co operating to most effectively kill enemy players and understanding how the map works requires a whole lot of training.

That's not even going into individual skill.
 
Refreshment.01 said:
Most of the things COD did ruin are relative to single player. Multi player wise top players dominate as usual, at least for what limited experience i have since the Modern Warfare Games and on.
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The problem with COD's style of singleplayer is that only like three developers on the face of the earth can do it right.

I actually thought MW3 had a solid campaign, but when everyone else tries to do that shit it just comes off as boring. Somehow Infinity Ward still knows what actually makes scripted campaigns exciting to play through. Valve is one of the only other companies that understands it too. Virtually everyone else has done a shit job of copying them.
 
Roche said:
I think it's disingenuous to imply that competitive Halo takes "zero skill" at the highest levels of gameplay there's a huge amount of teamwork necessary to control a map and to track the enemy team.

I'm not sure if you realize it but there's a lot more going on under the surface. Timing weapon spawns, co operating to most effectively kill enemy players and understanding how the map works requires a whole lot of training.

That's not even going into individual skill.
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I'm not saying it takes zero skill (and never said that). And a lot of these things you mention are STANDARD for any competitive FPS.
 
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