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[yurinka]

spiderman 2 cost $300 million.

Yes, the budgets of the AAA game highly increase every generation for all companies, including Sony.

Expedition 33 dev team had a total of 4 programmers who were able to integrate with the latest version of UE5. if sony studios dont have the money for R&D of next gen features like ray tracing, nanite, physics, hair etc, they can simply start licensing UE5.

Expedition 33 has over 400 people on the game credits and tech wise they didn't do anything not seen in Sony's AAA games.

Helldivers 2 is excellent but not Sony 1st party

First party means published by the platform holder. So this is why Sony calls Helldivers 2 a first party game.

Sony also owns this IP and funded the game, and most of the people who worked in the game are from Sony or from external outsourcing teams managed by Sony, just like they manage Arrowhead too.

 

[Baemono]

Yotei is basically a PS4 game.

I was told cross-gen games were basically PS4 games, but a full PS5 game being called a PS4 game is a new low

 

[Baemono]

First party means published by the platform holder. So this is why Sony calls Helldivers 2 a first party game.

Sony also owns this IP and funded the game, and most of the people who worked in the game are from Sony or from external outsourcing teams managed by Sony, just like they manage Arrowhead too.

Don't even need to argue, it says "PS Studios" on the box, it's a first party game

 

[Euler007]

The sad part is OP isn't sarcastic.

 

[R6Rider]

No.

 

[sncvsrtoip]

The GaaS push is an investment with related acquisitions and hirings on top of the what they already had, didn't replace anything.

Sure sure, 5 years wasted by Bluepoint and Bend Studio is nothing. Also ND many years involved in gaas project isn't connected with fact that 5 years into generation we got some lazy remake/remaster of lou1 on lou2 assets and 1 trailer.

 

[MayauMiao]

To me Sony lost the uniqueness of the PS2 era with its variety of games as well as the hardware breakthroughs (EE processor, dvd, firewire, hdd support, major graphic upgrade).

Now they are just pushing generic titles where its just remakes, remasters, GAAS focus and mostly available in other platform. Hardware is rather dull upgrade that's doesn't make the console standout like previous gen.

 

[Bojji]

Eyes of Sony fans are different.

I was told cross-gen games were basically PS4 games, but a full PS5 game being called a PS4 game is a new low

Tech behind this game is PS4 tech, there is nothing on display that couldn't be done on PS4 with enough cuts in resolution and 30fps. DS2 is the same, maybe a bit more ambitious in places (dynamic TOD not present in DS1).

 

[LordCBH]

byproduct of the power gap between generations shrinking and other studios catching up.

 

[Baemono]

that couldn't be done on PS4 with enough cuts in resolution and 30fps

 

[Sethbacca]

Tech behind this game is PS4 tech, there is nothing on display that couldn't be done on PS4 with enough cuts in resolution and 30fps. DS2 is the same, maybe a bit more ambitious in places (dynamic TOD not present in DS1).

"Yeah, this would be a PS4 game as long as you drop the resolution and FPS and stuff that makes it a current gen game"

 

[GymWolf]

Ah yes death stranding the game that came out by the late end of the PS5 generation and trades blows with forbidden West a launch title on the PS5 which was made with the PS4 1.8hz jaguars and 1.8 tflop gpu in mind. It brought absolutely no advancements using decima at all over a cross gen launch title and you use it as your argument for it being the technical cream of the crop

the funniest thing is that in both horizon and ds2, the models are the most impressive thing by far...and they are unreal metahuman models.

You can't write better comedy than reality

 

[Bojji]

"Yeah, this would be a PS4 game as long as you drop the resolution and FPS and stuff that makes it a current gen game"

So all those PS4 games with 60fps patches count as PS5 games then? Some low standards you have...

 

[SlimySnake]

Eyes of Sony fans are different.

Dont lump us in with the nutjobs. most people criticizing sony's output this gen are sony fans. The apologists among us dont represent us, only sony's interests.

 

[Bojji]

Dont lump us in with the nutjobs. most people criticizing sony's output this gen are sony fans. The apologists among us dont represent us, only sony's interests.

i meant fanboys obviously, blind fanboyism is the worst cancer.

 

[adamsapple]

Dont lump us in with the nutjobs. most people criticizing sony's output this gen are sony fans. The apologists among us dont represent us, only sony's interests.

If it's any consolation, you're actually considered a 'sony hater' in some circles.

 

[Sethbacca]

So all those PS4 games with 60fps patches count as PS5 games then?

They're PS4 games that are enhanced for PS5. Resolution and FPS increases is what generations will be going forward for a while thanks to diminishing returns. Best to get used to it now.

We're in PC territory at this point and the only difference is the settings.

 

[Bojji]

They're PS4 games that are enhanced for PS5. Resolution and FPS increases is what generations will be going forward for a while thanks to diminishing returns. Best to get used to it now.

We're in PC territory at this point and the only difference is the settings.

No, PS5 has hardware that PS4 don't. Games that are PS4 titles at the core don't count as PS5 games. PS2 remasters on PS3 are PS3 games?

PS5 games can use hardware Ray Tracing, SSD for streaming, primitve shaders for geometry and console have enough GPU power to run nanite (virtualized geometry), lumen (software RT for light and VSMs in UE5 games. PS4 would shit itself trying to do it.

Not to mention games can use 4x better CPU for massive improvements in physics, npc, denisity etc.

But here I read that PS4 game in 60fps and 1440p is good enough... Fuck me.

 

[SlimySnake]

There were a lot of wrong stuff. I show PS5 games, he says "yeah but these doesn't count cause of specific reasons I invented", so it is easy to say "well, if you exclude the games, there is no game, case and point". Yeah, no, I don't buy it.

No you were wrong. You did not just show PS5 games. Half of what you showed were PS4 games which by definition are no longer technically advanced.

He did give props to several of the games you mentioned calling them excellent so its not like he dismissed all of them, just the PS4 ports and remasters you mentioned that are clearly dated by now. Which is literally the premise of this thread. You posting a list of a bunch of PS4 remasters/ports and technically dated titles proves nothing.

If someone posts a thread about Nintendo no longer having technically advanced games, and you posted boxarts for Zelda TOTK and BOTW switch 2 remasters as proof that it is not then you would be the one who is wrong.

 

[Scrawnton]

Not counting

In order

- Overpriced glorified PSN Title
- Standalone iterative expansion (cross gen)
- Banger
- Not made by Sony (cross gen)
- Highly iterative sequel (cross gen)
- Highly iterative sequel (cross gen)
- Highly iterative sequel
- Banger
- Banger (cross gen)
- graphical reskin/remaster of a ps3 game
- graphical reskin of a ps4 remaster of a ps3 game
- not made by sony
- not made by sony
- not made by sony
- not made by sony
- PS4 port that was already playable via BC
- PS4 port that was already playable via BC
- PS4 port that was already playable via BC
- PS4 port that was already playable via BC

Am I being reductive? Yeah.

But this also speaks for itself. Sony has been horrible this generation.

 

[SlimySnake]

They're PS4 games that are enhanced for PS5. Resolution and FPS increases is what generations will be going forward for a while thanks to diminishing returns. Best to get used to it now.

We're in PC territory at this point and the only difference is the settings.

Nonsense.

literally every other major developer has embraced RT, mesh shaders and other next gen tech like Lumen and Nanite.

 

[Redneckerz]

There aren't that many PS5 exclusives that really WOW. Ratchet & Clank comes to mind and that was in the beginning.

Going third party, Avatar: Frontiers of Pandora. But the vast majority of games might be technically better, they aren't optimized well and i dare arguing artistry has taken a big hit with a lot looking rather generic as a result.

 

[SlimySnake]

If it's any consolation, you're actually considered a 'sony hater' in some circles.

 

[GymWolf]

I would say Horizon looks amazing 60% of the time. It's major issues are draw distance which are covered by fog, but apparent when you are flying around, and some really bad looking rocks and mountains. Otherwise, it looks great a vast majority of the time.

DS2? maybe 10% of the time in the mountains covered in snow. Otherwise, it looks way worse than HFW and consistently so. People are getting fooled by cutscenes which look next gen.

Ratchet looks next gen around 70% of the time with some open world levels not looking so great but thats ok, plenty of next gen showstoppers dont look great a 100% of the time. Now spiderman 2? It's last gen through and through like DS2.

The fact that Demon Souls, Ratchet and HFW, games that came out within 16 months of the PS5 launching look better than games coming out at the end of year 5 shows they have technically stagnated. Yet you have people defending this.

Horizon also has a lot of sketchy indoors, probably when it looks at its worse.

Not all of them, some cauldrons are great.

 

[Sethbacca]

Nonsense.

literally every other major developer has embraced RT, mesh shaders and other next gen tech like Lumen and Nanite.

At what cost though? 99% of the games released this generation have been utter stuttershit and low resolution with mandatory upscaling to hit a barely acceptable level of performance. Half this forum spent the first half of the generation whining about 60 fps, and now devs are targeting 60 fps by offloading the heavy and unnecessary lighting techniques and people still complain.

It's a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. You can either have performance or features, not both.

 

[Zacfoldor]

Team Asobi and Bluepoint are still good, but otherwise yes.

 

[Astray]

The answer is no.

Their tech capabilities are easily keeping pace with the rest of the industry, their issue has been in where and how they deploy said tech.

The other angle here is the competition really hasn't pursued technical fidelity in the same way as past gens, so why exactly put money towards pushing an envelope that no one pushes anymore?

 

[SlimySnake]

But here I read that PS4 in 60fps and 1440p is good enough... Fuck me.

It's not. This thread is proof of that. It's just a few apologists making up new rules completely discounting everything we've seen this gen. He literally said that games are just PC games with better settings. When in fact, even on PCs, we have path tracing in games that already ship with ray tracing this guy doesnt seem to believe actually exists. probably because he only plays Sony games this gen. We have dozens of games this gen on the PS5 that have pushed next gen features. Including games like Alan Wake 2, FF16, and plague's tale requiem which do not have any ray tracing support. Just plain old fashioned rendering techniques, just at a high fidelity using all of the GPU to push great visuals and massive battles.

My guess is that he's a sony developer who is trying to justify his lazy behavior by trying to gaslight us into thinking that modern games are basically last gen games at 1440p 60 fps.

 

[SlimySnake]

Horizon also has a lot of sketchy indoors, probably when it looks at its worse.

Not all of them, some cauldrons are great.

yeah, its bizarre. the DLC is next gen only and has a final area set indoors at a museum or theme park, and it looks ugly. And yet the cauldron in the same DLC is jaw dropping in terms of asset quality and lighting. Funny thing is that the cauldron is optional while the museum is literally the second to last level. my guess is that the cauldron's materials and smaller more linear scope allows them to place a lot more light sources which makes it look better than those big rooms in the museum auditorium.

 

[Baemono]

Half of what you showed were PS4 games which by definition are no longer technically advanced.

If Miles Morales (or Spider-Man remastered) running at 60fps with RT in an open world isn't technically advanced, I don't know what is.

If someone posts a thread about Nintendo no longer having technically advanced games, and you posted boxarts for Zelda TOTK and BOTW switch 2 remasters as proof that it is not then you would be the one who is wrong.

But what if I post MP4 ? Which will run at 120fps on Switch 2

 

[Sethbacca]

My guess is that he's a sony developer who is trying to justify his lazy behavior by trying to gaslight us into thinking that modern games are basically last gen games at 1440p 60 fps.

What I'm saying is the current console hardware doesn't feasibly allow for it. The PC analogue was describing the fact that I can buy a 5060 or a 5090, and realistically speaking I can only turn on advanced features on the higher end hardware if I want to play it at acceptable performance levels, but it doesn't mean the 5060 isn't a current gen card. How many people actually play games with path tracing? I guarantee you the percentage of pc players actually playing with any of these features is single digit percentages. Stop acting like it's some kind of common fucking thing.

The average PC gamer is playing at PS5 levels or lower.

 

[SlimySnake]

At what cost though? 99% of the games released this generation have been utter stuttershit and low resolution with mandatory upscaling to hit a barely acceptable level of performance. Half this forum spent the first half of the generation whining about 60 fps, and now devs are targeting 60 fps by offloading the heavy and unnecessary lighting techniques and people still complain.

It's a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. You can either have performance or features, not both.

Same cost as last gen when 1080p 30 fps was the standard and Sony first party was literally setting the bar with virtually every single game every single year. Order 2015. Uncharted 2016. Horizon 2017. GOW 2018. Death Stranding 2019. TLOU2 2020.

This gen? they had a decent first two years when everyone else was going cross gen, but then as soon as other devs started targeting 1440p 30 fps they were left behind and have failed to compete since. So yes, go down to 1440p 30 fps. it's still a 75% improvement over last gen, and with reconstruction techniques that 1440p will look much closer to 4k anyway.

No one is forcing them to target 1440p 60 fps. the rest of the industry isnt. James Bond first light looks amazing and is targeting 30 fps.

 

[Sethbacca]

No one is forcing them to target 1440p 60 fps. the rest of the industry isnt. James Bond first light looks amazing and is targeting 30 fps.

On this part we agree. I have no compunctions myself about playing 30 fps games, but this entire forum was in an uproar for the first part of the gen about most games not being 60fps. Devs are arguably delivering what a majority of gamers were asking for through the first part of the gen. First light looks excellent but that performance in the trailer was sketchy af at best, hopefully it'll be good by release.

 

[SlimySnake]

If Miles Morales (or Spider-Man remastered) running at 60fps with RT in an open world isn't technically advanced, I don't know what is.

Watch Dogs, grand theft auto 5, black ops cold war, dirt 5, deathloop, hitman 3, guardians of the galaxy and hogwarts legacy all shipped on ps5 at 60 fps. No one is listing any of these games as technically advanced. they are last gen games with RT slapped on top. Now if RT was significantly upgrading the visuals where turning it off was literally changing the look of the game like Callisto or ac shadows then i'd understand, but thats not the case with miles or any of the other launch window games that had RT slapped on them.

But what if I post MP4 ? Which will run at 120fps on Switch 2

i can run counter strike at 360 fps. is that technically advanced?

 

[Gaiff]

"Yeah, this would be a PS4 game as long as you drop the resolution and FPS and stuff that makes it a current gen game"

Eh, no. You can't make BMW or Alan Wake 2 run on a PS4 by dropping the resolution and fps.

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

Looking at this topic thank god i'm easily impressed (apparently). Otherwise i'd hate to play videogames in 2025, holy shit.

 

[mrMUR_96]

Horizon also has a lot of sketchy indoors, probably when it looks at its worse.

Not all of them, some cauldrons are great.

Yep, Horizon is very very inconsistent. Horizon has some absolutely appalling looking interiors and cave locations. DS2 is actually more consistent imo despite definitely having its fair share of rough spots.

 

[Sethbacca]

Eh, no. You can't make BMW or Alan Wake 2 run on a PS4 by dropping the resolution and fps.

You can barely make it run on any current gen hardware, up to and including how difficult it is to run on PC. Maybe they should have been slightly less ambitious with the visuals.

 

[GymWolf]

Yep, Horizon is very very inconsistent. Horizon has some absolutely appalling looking interiors and cave locations. DS2 is actually more consistent imo despite definitely having its fair share of rough spots.

Outdoors are more consistent in horizon imo.

 

[Gaiff]

You can barely make it run on any current gen hardware, up to and including how difficult it is to run on PC. Maybe they should have been slightly less ambitious with the visuals.

Not true. The 30fps mode is fine on PS5. There's even a 60fps mode. It cannot run on old-gen hardware because 1, it's far too demanding, and 2, it needs features not supported by PS4-era systems. We've always defined next-gen games as games that straight-up cannot run on last-gen hardware. Mario 64 cannot run on the SNES. Mario Sunshine cannot run on the N64. Horizon cannot run on a PS3 and so on.

 

[Sethbacca]

Not true. The 30fps mode is fine on PS5. There's even a 60fps mode. It cannot run on old-gen hardware because 1, it's far too demanding, and 2, it needs features not supported by PS4-era systems. We've always defined next-gen games as games that straight-up cannot run on last-gen hardware. Mario 64 cannot run on the SNES. Mario Sunshine cannot run on the N64. Horizon cannot run on a PS3 and so on.

I'll give you the point on BMW because I haven't played it myself. Just basing my assertion on all the reviews I had seen.

To your second point, I think we're at a point where games are largely "good enough" graphically. The amount of money needed to get "better" is gonna be spent by fewer and fewer companies. I'm of the opinion that the people that are arguing that generations are largely dead and have been since last gen are mostly right. You'll have a few outlier games that push limits, but if Sony is pushing a PS5 level handheld for next gen, then you can probably assume that most games coming out now are probably going to be the graphical baseline for a while. As someone who grew up with an Atari as my first console and seeing the graphical leaps gen over gen over gen for decades, I wish that I could experience another leap of that level but I just don't see it coming, so I'm just being a realist out here about what we can expect given current hardware.

 

[mrMUR_96]

Looking at this topic thank god i'm easily impressed (apparently). Otherwise i'd hate to play videogames in 2025, holy shit.

I think we just have different standards and expectations. Sony post about their record profits year after year and in their previous generational output, their studios were always proud about pushing their tech and visuals hard. This seems almost entirely absent this generation from them. They had a decent start with Demon's Souls and R&C, but since then it's just been cross gen games based on ps4 tech. The PS5 has a substantial hardware improvement over the PS4 and things like hardware accelerated ray tracing, mesh shading and an exponential increase in CPU and SSD performance and yet they are just making PS4 games at higher fps and resolution. 1st party studios should be making the most of the hardware they have available, that was always kinda the point in having them so they could show the hardware in the best light. Instead, 3rd party studios are the ones pushing tech forward.

 

[Hugare]

"Yeah, this would be a PS4 game as long as you drop the resolution and FPS and stuff that makes it a current gen game"

By that logic, running a PS1 game in 4K/120 fps makes it a current gen game?

If a PS4 could run the game at lower resolution, then its not using current gen tech.

 

[mrMUR_96]

Outdoors are more consistent in horizon imo.

The fact we're disagreeing is proof of how stagnant these studios have been. Decima for DS2 should have been upgraded since Horizon, but it's seems to be the exact same tech wise, it doesn't even seem like they used the water tech that was upgraded for Forbidden west lol. They used the cloud system it seems at least.

 

[yurinka]

Sure sure, 5 years wasted by Bluepoint and Bend Studio is nothing. Also ND many years involved in gaas project isn't connected with fact that 5 years into generation we got some lazy remake/remaster of lou1 on lou2 assets and 1 trailer.

All companies, not only Sony, also commonly cancel non-GaaS games, they've been doing since the 70s and is part of gamedev process. It's dumb and nonsensical to act as if it wouldn't be the case.

Bluepoint doesn't have -and never had- anyone in the job positions related to lead a game, like game director, creative director and so on. Their game design team has under half a dozen people and were only two people during the GoWR development. So they aren't and weren't leading any game, because as their boss and Sony said multiple times they are a support team.

They also don't have and never had anybody in any GaaS specific job role, so never have been doing any GaaS specific stuff. They are a support team mostly focused on art, so somebody who can support both GaaS and non-GaaS stuff because the part they are in charge when codeveloping is the same for GaaS and non-GaaS.

Regarding ND, before TLOU Online they worked on a single big game at the same time. TLOU Online didn't stop them to continue working on SP AAA games, the opposite: at the same time they were working on TLOU Online they also worked on TLOU2 and when shipped it moved to Intergalactic. Around early 2023 they also started to work in a second, unannounced AAA SP game. So they were working in 3 big games at the same time. Plus at the same time they were overviewing/supporting the remasters/remakes/ports and movie+tv show.

So no, during TLOU Online deelopment they didn't decrease their efforts in SP games, but instead increased it.

Sony first party was literally setting the bar with virtually every single game every single year. Order 2015. Uncharted 2016. Horizon 2017. GOW 2018. Death Stranding 2019. TLOU2 2020.

This gen?

Demon's Souls 2020, Ratchet 2021, Horizon FW+GoWR+GT7 2022, Spider-Man 2 2023, Astrobot+Helldivers 2+Stellar Blade (somewhat weak year tech wise) 2024, Death Stranding 2 2025

 

[Gaiff]

I'll give you the point on BMW because I haven't played it myself. Just basing my assertion on all the reviews I had seen.

To your second point, I think we're at a point where games are largely "good enough" graphically. The amount of money needed to get "better" is gonna be spent by fewer and fewer companies. I'm of the opinion that the people that are arguing that generations are largely dead and have been since last gen are mostly right. You'll have a few outlier games that push limits, but if Sony is pushing a PS5 level handheld for next gen, then you can probably assume that most games coming out now are probably going to be the graphical baseline for a while. As someone who grew up with an Atari as my first console and seeing the graphical leaps gen over gen over gen for decades, I wish that I could experience another leap of that level but I just don't see it coming, so I'm just being a realist out here about what we can expect given current hardware.

I see what you mean and would agree that the traditional generation dies as of the PS5 and beyond. There are clear things that separate legitimate PS4-era games from legitimate PS5-era games. It's not just down to settings and resolution. Once the PS6 rolls out, then yeah, whatever PS6 has, the PS5 will have it but to a lesser degree. This will make the PS6 just a more powerful PS5.

 

[Sethbacca]

If a PS4 could run the game at lower resolution, then its not using current gen tech.

If a dev designs a game around a certain art style and says that we want a 60fps game and certain game design and it is designed around current gen hardware even if it's not using all that hardware's features, then it's a current gen game. If you have to cut back on your vision to run on older hardware at worse performance and resolution levels, then it's not a last gen game. Even if a game isn't using all of the visual features, they're mostly taking advantage of new controller features, ssd load times, etc that are all current gen features.

I mean, we're splitting hairs at this point and I don't expect to change any minds, I'm just mostly arguing that people's expectations are out of line with current hardware reality.

 

[Topher]

every single one of their AAA first party studio has put out a game this gen. Every single one.
- PD
- GG
- ND
- SP
- SSM
- Insomniac
- Bluepoint

That including remasters/remakes? ND hasn't released a new game this gen

 

[SlimySnake]

That including remasters/remakes? ND hasn't released a new game this gen

Yes. ND was outdone by Bluepoint's remake and fucking Bloober's remake. That's unacceptable.

They also charged $70 for it and said it was a next gen showpiece.

 

[SlimySnake]

The fact we're disagreeing is proof of how stagnant these studios have been. Decima for DS2 should have been upgraded since Horizon, but it's seems to be the exact same tech wise, it doesn't even seem like they used the water tech that was upgraded for Forbidden west lol. They used the cloud system it seems at least.

Nah, the new water is there. There just isnt that much of it.

Kojima was literally going blind and lost 2 years to that illness so if there is one dev who i will give a pass is kojima. we all know his team cant work without him. So they probably just sat there while he got eye sight back.

Now GG couldve built him an RTGI system or a mesh shader system in the meantime but they were busy shipping horizon until 2022.