Give me that songbird backstory, Levine!
SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
- Thread starter thomasmahler
- Start date
Give me that songbird backstory, Levine!
Vire
Member
I like Sub-Zero ViewtifulJC much more.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
I am desperately hoping its not something that drives the story nowhere, like just placing us in the shoes of some Vox guy, or some other npc peon.
That would be disappointing. Let us play as the Lettuce's or something lol
he doesn't stab your hand.
Voice of Reason
Banned
In the DLC you play as Elizabeth when she grows up and Booker forces her to become a prostitute to repay his debts.
I don't think it's as possible as we think. I think erasing the source of the infinite loop destroys the possibility of Comstock ever existing and the Booker that we play goes back to his timeline at the point in which Comstock would have breached through into Booker's world to buy Anna.
I genuinely can't see anything else.
Alternate Bookers. Like the one that died during the revolution with the Vox.
brainzelda
Member
How do you as player Booker-Gambler cross into a world with Booker-Comstock in during the first few hours of the game? Do you tear through when you're in the rocket chair or something? Cause I'm assuming there's only 1 Booker per instance unless you cross through a tear.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
Thats not even a stretch, considering Booker doesn't gain memory of his worse atrocities back.
Lettuces access him through a tear, 20 something years later.
By then, Booker has branded himself, trashed his PI office, and spread fecal matter all over the walls in guilt and anger.
José Mourinho
cocknose
Yeah, I get that theory. Now maybe this is because my knowledge of theoretical multiverses isn't up to scratch. But wouldn't there be a universe where Comstock made Columbia but he was really just a nice bloke. Wouldn't there be a Universe where Comstock falls down a flight of stairs and dies and so on...
If the idea is that a universe is just a split that pops up after a decision is made. How would that explain a universe where the scientists were male in one and female in the other?
My brain... my poor pitiful brain.
Vire
Member
The thing is, this isn't the type of game where you can do post game content.
It's like the Mass Effect 3 problem, how do you make something that is relevant or interesting based off what happens at the end?
Sure I guess you can do some side stories, but is that really worthwhile?
I don't doubt the creativeness of Irrational though.
GenericBadGuy
Member
The Letuces pull him through. You see this when touring the worlds with Elizabeth.
All that is a a flipped chromosome. Considering the old wives tales about how eating certain foods will give you a boy or a girl it could be as simple as the mother deciding to eat something different during pregnancy.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
A different perspective could be really fun. Thats only if it gives us something new though.
GenericBadGuy
Member
That's kind of funny, since sure he got Anna back but hes still a no good-drinkin'-gamblin'-hardboiled-pinkerton.
That's a cool idea.
You are correct in all those thing, however Levine decided to "limit" things by saying some things were constant. I assume one constant is that Comstock is always a prick, if not though, we are sacrificing the couple good Comstocks to weed out the bad ones. It also seems that the twins are the only ones that he wanted to allow to have different genders.
MDSVeritas
Member
To be fair, you've got a game which has a setting centered on multiple universes and differing outcomes based off of choices, there should be a fair amount for them to look into.
Voice of Reason
Banned
Totally not the same. Mass Effect 3 had a problem because the ending was broken and made no sense, and any "side-story" would have been pointless.
This game has an absolutely amazing ending, with very ambiguous threads in between where Levine can expand on, without ruining the original story.
Vire
Member
Sure, but in the end they all are pretty meaningless in terms of the greater story.
You may get to experience a different universe/take on the world and I guess that's interesting enough in itself.
If it's to the level of Minerva's Den, I'm down.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
Expanding on Songbird's origins would be so cool.
I'm not sure I liked all of the ingredients in the soup (I thought the Songbird stuff was kind of...out there. It didn't feel integrated that well into the story, and the C-A-G-E thing might have been a little strained), but the soup came out tasting really nice. That ending was so satisfying! They managed to give me a nice feeling despite having some frayed ends along the way, I guess?
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
Playing through the whole Gunsmith section, and lol @ jumping through multiple realities to try and get things rolling to get the guns to the Vox.
Instead of actually doing anything, Booker and Liz just jump across two realities, one where Chen Lei is a zombie due to him dying in Universe A, and then jumping from that Universe B to a universe C where the guns have already been made and reached the Vox.
So many little jumps.
Basically, there are only two real aspects to this 'multiverse'. The first is the baptism event. This choice of creating Comstock or not apparently results in a binary (as we see it, at least) decision in which Comstock utilizes his newly regained religion to propel himself into the upper echelon of American society, utilizing the Lutece's technology to gain power.
This in turn leads back to the second 'main' universe, in which Booker never shaped up, and is a gambling man who sells Anna to Comstock due to Comstock gaining a prophecy through viewing tears in combination with his own delusions due to psychological trauma at Wounded Knee.
This in turn sets up the Booker chasing after Comstock in all of its variants.
Basically, the connected multiverse exists, but with the baptism event as its single 'original' focus, which in turn leads to the tears/time travel, further connecting seperate universes.
Basically this.
The 'choice' point in the whole multiverse theory lies solely (or mainly, at least), with the choice of baptism. After that, things revert back to their 'fixed' nature based on how that choice has affected the universe(s).
Instead of actually doing anything, Booker and Liz just jump across two realities, one where Chen Lei is a zombie due to him dying in Universe A, and then jumping from that Universe B to a universe C where the guns have already been made and reached the Vox.
So many little jumps.
Basically, there are only two real aspects to this 'multiverse'. The first is the baptism event. This choice of creating Comstock or not apparently results in a binary (as we see it, at least) decision in which Comstock utilizes his newly regained religion to propel himself into the upper echelon of American society, utilizing the Lutece's technology to gain power.
This in turn leads back to the second 'main' universe, in which Booker never shaped up, and is a gambling man who sells Anna to Comstock due to Comstock gaining a prophecy through viewing tears in combination with his own delusions due to psychological trauma at Wounded Knee.
This in turn sets up the Booker chasing after Comstock in all of its variants.
Basically, the connected multiverse exists, but with the baptism event as its single 'original' focus, which in turn leads to the tears/time travel, further connecting seperate universes.
Basically this.
The 'choice' point in the whole multiverse theory lies solely (or mainly, at least), with the choice of baptism. After that, things revert back to their 'fixed' nature based on how that choice has affected the universe(s).
Columbia is great enough realized world that playing as another character, and fleshing out the smaller details of the narrative and the world would bring me notihng but delight.
José Mourinho
cocknose
And so my gripe continues. A flipped chromosome in the early 1900's could be the difference between a career scientist and a housewife.
Maybe I'm thinking in to it too much.
Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed the game and having read a lot about it after the fact I agree with the general consensus. I just think when you're going to make a multiverse a key plot point, you should at least have some explanation as to how your multiverse operates. Or something, I don't know.
jacksepticeye
Member
That's one thing I applauded in the game, while as a player Liz was hot, but they never once showed a romantic sort of vibe between them in the game. It was always Mr.Dewitt and he always just wanted to save her like a father figure would. But they never got closer sexually or anything like that, I really liked that.
On a side note how many people in here had the ending spoiled before they played it? I did and I was still smacked sideways by most of it
What did you think about the post credit scene.
What are you leaning towards
Booker is an infinite loop destined to repeat the same horrors over and over agian
OR
Booker was reset, and is allowed to restart his life in a more pure way.
Vire
Member
It's funny how an ending that raises more questions than it answers turns out to be one of the most satisfying experiences I've had in some time with a game.
I felt like I ate a god damn delicious meal and I was full.
I was spoiled.
It sounded like fucking shit.
Played it, blew my mind. The context and just experiencing the ending was so damn good.
Voice of Reason
Banned
I did, and noticed a lot of the foreshadowing consequentially. I just knew the meat though "BOOKER IS PROPHET" but not how it happens. I was still amazed.
Honestly have to think about it more.
It's because I'm sick of being bullshat with 5 second garbage CG cutscenes (like, for example, the one that ends Bioshock).
I was spoiled. The words I saw were:
"Booker is the prophet, Elizabeth kills Booker."
It didn't ruin my experience at all because there was no context, and frankly I didn't realise it meant that Booker was Comstock.
Took me a day to figure it out in my head.
This is what I'm saying. I want to know what the true deal with birdy was. I know there is something important there.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
I thought they tried to play with that angle a bit during the shop scene when she pulls you down/grabs your hand.
It obviously isn't anything to go off, but if we can already tell a relationship of any kind is building, why throw that in?
Just something to think about.
José Mourinho
cocknose
Okay, well that makes sense if we assume how you explain it is in fact the case. But as I said above, if they're going to use complex plot devices like this, I think that a brief bit of explanation would of helped.
I'm not one who enjoys everything being spoon fed. But it wouldn't of hurt in this case. I think the story is complex enough without having to throw speculation of multiverese in to the mix.
ThreePiMatt
Member
Is it possible to backup a current checkpoint? I restarted the game on 1999 mode, but I want to go back to the beginning to test something without disrupting my current save point. It'll probably amount to nothing, but worth a test.
Don't know the answer to your question, but what did you want to test?
I saw spoilers to the effect of "Elizabeth drowns Booker..."
Which is really minor in the grand scheme of things.
Comstock told the lighthouse keeper to stop Dewitt from coming. The Luteces killed him (probably because the lighthouse keeper killed a previous Booker) so that Booker had safe passage to Columbia.
Voice of Reason
Banned
The guy probably opposed Lutece's plans, so he had to be dealt with.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
Are they really the killing type though?
ThreePiMatt
Member
Well, I'll tell you if I turn out to be incredibly clever.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
They're where they need to be.
Voice of Reason
Banned
They're the crazy type, so those two types are compatible.
The Teachinator
Banned
Wow fantastic game. The shooter element wore thin towards the end but I think that was because I was so eager to have the curating pulled back to see what was going on. The last time egg enjoyed a game this much was portal 2. This is a masterpiece for video games.
Was anyone else reminded of Stephen Kings dark tower series? Some influence had to come from that. If you liked this game check out those novels.
Was anyone else reminded of Stephen Kings dark tower series? Some influence had to come from that. If you liked this game check out those novels.
Wonder when they had time to put up all the notes saying save the girl, erase the debt or whatever. My understanding is that was the story Booker fabricated in his head when they pulled him through the tear.
Well, fine then
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
Yeah, it is kind of lame to leave the unknown out there when it has such a huge impact on the potential ramifications for the story, but we're still limited both by the focus on Elizabeth/Booker and the nature of a 'game'. Introducing that kind of craziness would make for MGS style cutscene exposition at the end, though.
On a different note, came across something slightly interesting replaying through the gunsmith section. Booker has overlapping sets of memories in the universe to which he's a Vox leader, including the nosebleed, but nothing in universe B in which Chen Lei was dead. Possibly symbolizing that not all universal tears have a Booker traipsing through them? Either that, or that Liz gives some protection that keeps Booker from turning full zombie.
They do have forewarning from watching/viewing tears and/or seeing other Universe's Bookers reach the same 'conclusions' based on murky memories that got screwed with from the time/universe pull.
Haha, I remember when the spoiler leaked people were like pfft, that's such a stupid nonsense twist, Levine wouldn't do that. And then he did it and it was fucking great.
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