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[MGrant]

I don't think the selling of Anna happens before the baptism. The baptism seems to follow not too long after the events at Wounded Knee.

I think the baptism is the starting point for the whole story, a singular "constant" that spins off into infinite variations (the other Bioshock worlds). What the other variations there are, outside of the two main timelines we follow in the game, are not specified, but are fun to speculate about. In one timeline, though, we know that Dewitt is baptized, changes his name, turns his life around to become spiritual and powerful, marries an infertile woman, and meets Ms. Lutece. In the other, he is not baptized, then goes on to have a child and sell her to Mr. Lutece when his debts get out of control.

My theory is that the reason Comstock is such a racist, patriotic tyrant is that his Born-again lifestyle has caused him to rationalize his past atrocities in the attitudes of Patriotism and racism -- he sees himself as a holy man after the baptism and subsequent induction into the religious community. Thus, a holy man surely would only have served at Wounded Knee to uphold sacred ideals and protect his country against subhuman aggressors. The player Dewitt does not become a holy man -- he throws his life away because he is unable to cope with what he did at Wounded Knee.

 

[The Elite]

I don't think the selling of Anna happens before the baptism. The baptism seems to follow not too long after the events at Wounded Knee.

.

The selling of Anna absolutely does not happen before the baptism. That would negate the whole impact of the ending.

 

[MGrant]

The selling of Anna absolutely does not happen before the baptism. That would negate the whole impact of the ending.

Awesome, I'm not alone. I've just been seeing posts about the baptism being in part to atone for selling Anna, but I think it's only because of his war experience.

 

[MDSVeritas]

You and I both

T_T

Don't forget the post-credits sequence, though. Maybe that Elizabeth did disappear, but in the end one final version of her got to stay and grow up with Booker.

 

[megalowho]

The lighthouses were my favorite part of the ending sequence. Just stunning.

 

[Dr Dogg]

So hang a sec I've just realised this. Do any of the binary choice have any impact at all? I know there are only 2 or 3 but I can't see how apart from the couple I chose not to throw the ball at giving me a sweet hat that everything happened precisely for a reason.

 

[Remachinate]

The selling of Anna absolutely does not happen before the baptism. That would negate the whole impact of the ending.

It also doesn't make narrative sense. If Booker had Anna before the baptism, then in the universes where he is baptized as Comstock, there's no need to kidnap a daughter from a different universe because he already has one in his own.

 

[oktarb]

Awesome, I'm not alone. I've just been seeing posts about the baptism being in part to atone for selling Anna, but I think it's only because of his war experience.

He gets baptized and becomes Comstock OR he refuses baptism and becomes a gambler-daughter-selling degenerate. He reason to get baptized is to wash away his war time horror memories.

 

[Guess Who]

So hang a sec I've just realised this. Do any of the binary choice have any impact at all? I know there are only 2 or 3 but I can't see how apart from the couple I chose not to throw the ball at giving me a sweet hat that everything happened precisely for a reason.

Nope. They decided the binary morality system from Bioshock 1 sucked, so all the choices are just there to make you think and have no actual impact.

 

[Moobabe]

Ok, so not her daughter then. But someone who was able to comprehend her books and has something in common with Elizabeth?

I know she's Elizabeth's pen pal; but I don't know much else about her. I might keep an eye out next time I play through.

 

[Sblargh]

So hang a sec I've just realised this. Do any of the binary choice have any impact at all? I know there are only 2 or 3 but I can't see how apart from the couple I chose not to throw the ball at giving me a sweet hat that everything happened precisely for a reason.

On my first playthrough I refused to toss the ball either at the couple or at the locutor; now I chose to throw it at the locutor and later the couple gave me a piece of gear they had not, before.

Also, first, I waited for the guy on the phone and he stabbed my hand. Now I drew my weapon and my hand is not stabbed.

 

[CzarTim]

The more I digest this game, the more I realize that what impressed me most about it was how so many games try to be movies, but Infinite was like "fuck that, this is a novel." The story had so many moving pieces, and yet it all fit together at the end. The sub-plots and characters that most games would use and then discard as an excuse to bring you to the next area were elements in Infinite that had meaning on multiple levels. It fed into the ending, it developed the characters, and added to the universe in a way that helped Columbia feel alive. I've been thinking about this game the same I would after reading a great novel. I don't think there has ever been a game to so effectively feel that way.

 

[bodyofanamerican]

I liked the 2 nice little callbacks to Saltonstall, the lunatic politician from the first 10 minute gameplay demo. Some people mention him on the initial walk through Columbia and one of the scalps hanging up in the Market District in the Vox-Columbia is labeled as Saltonstall too.

 

[Vire]

You know I've heard Elizabeth sing the Carter Family song numerous times now, and it only just dawned on me the meaning of the lyrics.

Can the circle be unbroken
Bye and bye, Lord, bye and bye
There's a better home a-waiting
In the sky, Lord, in the sky

A circle suggest the story repeating itself infinitely.

The more little clues I find like this (this is your last chance note), the more I'm lead to believe that this was the final iteration of the cycle.

 

[DatDude]

Nope. They decided the binary morality system from Bioshock 1 sucked, so all the choices are just there to make you think and have no actual impact.

Well, I mean it also fits in the context of the narrative.

No matter what you do, it SHOULDN'T matter anyways.

 

[DatDude]

By the way I have my own personal question.

Comstock proclaims before his death "It is finished"

As it was brought up by a member here...

Could this indicate that in some way he WANTED to die, and wanted the circle to become broken? Perhaps some guilt was eating him for what he had to the alternate booker?

 

[Dr Dogg]

Nope. They decided the binary morality system from Bioshock 1 sucked, so all the choices are just there to make you think and have no actual impact.

On my first playthrough I refused to toss the ball either at the couple or at the locutor; now I chose to throw it at the locutor and later the couple gave me a piece of gear they had not, before.

Also, first, I waited for the guy on the phone and he stabbed my hand. Now I drew my weapon and my hand is not stabbed.

Ah right. Thanks guys. Sounds like a sense of false control. I'm going to have to watch some Hitchcock and read some Steinbeck after playing this. Unlike the first BioShock which seamed to go with a central theme and just rift from that Infinite appears to be quite deep. As I said in the Steam thread I thought this was going down a 12 Monkeys route and now that feels like a distant memory, especially after the ending. DLC shall be very interesting to see where and who they go with.

 

[Voice of Reason]

Bioshock Infinite and Spec Ops probably have the best stories in gaming. Absolutely amazing.

 

[Guess Who]

By the way I have my own personal question.

Comstock proclaims before his death "It is finished"

As it was brought up by a member here...

Could this indicate that in some way he WANTED to die, and wanted the circle to become broken? Perhaps some guilt was eating him for what he had to the alternate booker?

Most importantly, those were Jesus's last words before dying on the cross.

 

[Scratch]

So what was the difference between picking the bird and cage pendents?

it's funny because it really only depends on which one you want her to wear, seeing as she'll have it on the entire game. it's literally "which one do you prefer?"

 

[antitrop]

Bioshock Infinite and Spec Ops probably have the best stories in gaming. Absolutely amazing.

Throw The Walking Dead in there and I would agree with you.

And all within the last 12 months.

 

[Remachinate]

By the way I have my own personal question.

Comstock proclaims before his death "It is finished"

As it was brought up by a member here...

Could this indicate that in some way he WANTED to die, and wanted the circle to become broken? Perhaps some guilt was eating him for what he had to the alternate booker?

I doubt it, he was unrepentant through his final scene. Keep in mind Comstock was already terminal with cancer, and knew he wouldn't live to see his plan come to fruition. I think it's intended as a reference to Jesus' quote before he dies on the cross; I think Comstock saw himself as making a similar sacrifice and feeling as though he had succeeded.

EDIT: Whoops, beaten.

 

[MGrant]

By the way I have my own personal question.

Comstock proclaims before his death "It is finished"

As it was brought up by a member here...

Could this indicate that in some way he WANTED to die, and wanted the circle to become broken? Perhaps some guilt was eating him for what he had to the alternate booker?

I think on some level he wanted to die, just as old tyrant Elizabeth wanted Booker to go back and fix things. He knew he was overstepping a lot of natural and ethical laws when he decided to try and destroy the world below beyond time and space, he knew that he wouldn't live to see this happen and that only Elizabeth could do it. But he still wanted the power; he HATED the world below. Had convinced himself it was beyond saving in a spiritual sense. So he built a tower and a power-draining machine to delay the inevitable maturation of Elizabeth's power, in the hopes that he could indoctrinate her before she, Booker, and the Luteces could close the loop that gave him all the power.

 

[pakkit]

Okay, let's talk about Columbia as a form of wish fulfillment.

In a delusional state, Booker's broken mind and dreams attempt to create a new world where one doesn't exist...a form of wish fulfillment.

Here, his wife, having passed away in child birth, is now a beloved figure in Columbia. She is given virginal holiness, and her death comes at the hands of Daisy Fitzroy (the house maid in Columbia, the midwife in New York). Once the tears start becoming intermingled, the dream starts to fall away. Daisy is not the killer, Comstock is (he did plant the seed, after all).

Columbia as a place is built for atonement, a gift Booker so desperately needs. It wears its nationalism as a badge of honor (thus forgiving Booker of his work as a Pinkerton agent). Comstock takes this nationalism even further, repelling the Boxers and creating an ultra-patriotical offshoot of the US. Those that Booker has killed are deemed the secondaries of the nation.

Booker's daughter, Anna, was sold to pay off debts, but he couldn't handle the grief. In Columbia, this is represented by the tower. It entraps her, and siphons her power, burying her in his mind while playing up the idyllic through iconography. This is the unresolved problem that even Comstock can't figure out and the impetus for the entire story.

Bioshock Infinite and Spec Ops probably have the best stories in gaming. Absolutely amazing.

I really recommend Silent Hill: Shattered Memories, as well.

 

[Izcarielo]

It also doesn't make narrative sense. If Booker had Anna before the baptism, then in the universes where he is baptized as Comstock, there's no need to kidnap a daughter from a different universe because he already has one in his own.

I thought exactly the same as you. Can someone elaborate please?

 

[Moobabe]

Throw The Walking Dead in there and I would agree with you.

And all within the last 12 months.

And Planescape: Torment - though that was a few moons ago.

 

[mrgreen]

Nope, felt pretty long. After people were teasing me here to finish it, I just wanted to be done with it and basically finished it in 2 sittings. Definitely longer than your average first person shooter, probably around 9-10 hours.

10-12 hours is very short for me. I wouldn't be happy if I finished a full price game that quick. I don't think I have ever completed a fps that quick. Did you play it on easy or are you just good on these kind of games? I think they should ban the Easy setting on games.

 

[Can Crusher]

Absolutely amazing, drop dead gorgeous, incredible story etc

BUT...so Dewitt dies? Is that it?

 

[Gandie]

Just finished it. Wow, but I have so many questions.

 

[LumpOfCole]

The biggest question poised by Bioshock Infinite:

Spoiler

If the Luteces became sexually involved with one another, is that incest?

 

[MGrant]

Absolutely amazing, drop dead gorgeous, incredible story etc

BUT...so Dewitt dies? Is that it?

Did you watch the scene after the credits? It's pretty clear that a Dewitt dies. But which one?

 

[Guess Who]

The biggest question poised by Bioshock Infinite:

Spoiler

If the Luteces became sexually involved with one another, is that incest?

We've been over this a million times. It's masturbation.

 

[Moobabe]

The biggest question poised by Bioshock Infinite:

Spoiler

If the Luteces became sexually involved with one another, is that incest?

Masturbation

Beaten

 

[Can Crusher]

Did you watch the scene after the credits? It's pretty clear that a Dewitt dies. But which one?

Fuck, I missed the scene after the credits, I just normally press start when the credits start rolling because I don't have the patience.

edit: Youtubed it. So there's a version of dewitt that survives.

 

[ant_]

Absolutely amazing, drop dead gorgeous, incredible story etc

BUT...so Dewitt dies? Is that it?

No, Comstock dies.

 

[bodyofanamerican]

One other thing. Just to confirm, there is NO way to start a new playthrough without wiping out my old one, right? Ugh.

Makes game about parallel universes. Doesn't allow parallel universes IRL.

 

[pakkit]

No, Comstock dies.

Two sides of the same coin.

 

[Mairu]

10-12 hours is very short for me. I wouldn't be happy if I finished a full price game that quick. I don't think I have ever completed a fps that quick. Did you play it on easy or are you just good on these kind of games? I think they should ban the Easy setting on games.

What modern shooters (past 3-5 years I guess) are you used to with much longer campaigns? And why does it matter to you what difficulty other people play it on?

I really enjoyed the game and thought the length was appropriate. Steam tells me it took me about 11-12 hours to complete the story (on normal) but it felt longer than that.

 

[ant_]

Two sides of the same coin.

That moment is the defining moment of the character who comes out. Comstock decides to be baptized, DeWitt does not. Hence, drowning the Booker who decides to be baptized only kills Comstock, it does not kill DeWitt. How I think of it, at least.

 

[The Elite]

No, Comstock dies.

No, DeWitt dies.

 

[antitrop]

And Planescape: Torment - though that was a few moons ago.

I haven't played it, but I've heard enough about it to know you're right.

I should get around to that when I feel like reading.

 

[Angelus Errare]

By the way I have my own personal question.

Comstock proclaims before his death "It is finished"

As it was brought up by a member here...

Could this indicate that in some way he WANTED to die, and wanted the circle to become broken? Perhaps some guilt was eating him for what he had to the alternate booker?

Listen to the Voxrecording in involving the kid who was to write Comstock's autobiography. Comstock knew when he was going to die because he saw it in another timeline.

 

[AngryMoth]

Ok so here's something that's confusing me. Looking at the story chronologically, what actually happens at the baptism scene. Elizabeth appears through a tear and kills Booker in every version? But then you just get the classic timetravel paradox about her not existing if she goes back in time to kill her farther...

Also I don't get the purpose of the post credits scene if Booker is dead before Anna is born

 

[Moobabe]

I haven't played it, but I've heard enough about it to know you're right.

I should get around to that when I feel like reading.

If you can suffer through some pretty average combat sections it really is a masterpiece.

 

[pakkit]

No, DeWitt dies.

No, Dewitt died.

 

[The Elite]

Ok so here's something that's confusing me. Looking at the story chronologically, what actually happens at the baptism scene. Elizabeth appears through a tear and kills Booker in every version? But then you just get the classic timetravel paradox about her not existing if she goes back in time to kill her farther...

Also I don't get the purpose of the post credits scene if Booker is dead before Anna is born

She kills her father and then ceases to exist. That's why she's disappearing.

No, Dewitt died.

No, Coleslaw died.

 

[Remachinate]

No, DeWitt dies.

All instances of DeWitt that sought out baptism die, before his decision to accept or reject it. That includes all Comstocks and all Bookers that gave away Anna. Any DeWitt that never explored that avenue of atonement is unaffected.

 

[Can Crusher]

That moment is the defining moment of the character who comes out. Comstock decides to be baptized, DeWitt does not. Hence, drowning the Booker who decides to be baptized only kills Comstock, it does not kill DeWitt. How I think of it, at least.

They both die because neither happens, he drowns. But apparently a version of them survives, according to the post credits.

 

[pakkit]

She kills her father and then ceases to exist. That's why she's disappearing.

If you want to take the happy angle, where Anna survives... Elizabeth kills herself in every instance where she'd be with Comstock.

 

[MDSVeritas]

Ok so here's something that's confusing me. Looking at the story chronologically, what actually happens at the baptism scene. Elizabeth appears through a tear and kills Booker in every version? But then you just get the classic timetravel paradox about her not existing if she goes back in time to kill her farther...

Also I don't get the purpose of the post credits scene if Booker is dead before Anna is born

It's purposefully enigmatic I believe. One of the theories being tossed around that I've heard the most is that by killing Booker (And thereby all the permutations of him and Comstock) at the baptism, it creates one final timeframe, where Booker lives and keeps Anna. It's unknown why this happens exactly.