It always struck me as odd with songbird. I always feel like he let Booker go. I wonder if songbird will only kill him if he actively attacks first. Those other timelines did have songbird killing Booker so we know its possible.
SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
- Thread starter thomasmahler
- Start date
It always struck me as odd with songbird. I always feel like he let Booker go. I wonder if songbird will only kill him if he actively attacks first. Those other timelines did have songbird killing Booker so we know its possible.
jacksepticeye
Member
DLC : Liz tears a hole and we see Commander Shepard fighting the reapers. booker and Liz lend a hand and earth is saved.
Or more seriously a DLC where we spend more time in Rapture. But that DLC is called Bioshock 1
Or more seriously a DLC where we spend more time in Rapture. But that DLC is called Bioshock 1
"He doesn't row?"
"No, he DOESN'T row"
...
"What the hell are you guys talking about? Give me those damn sticks"
Bioshock: Infinite 2
An audio diary heavily hints at this being the case.
Full price dlc right there.
Sure they will, 20 year dev cycle confirmed.
toastyToast
Member
Alternate reality DLC where Booker becomes a radical Muslim to attone for his sins. Buraq Al-Du'it's city in the the sand
my guess for DLC is something playing around this idea
monocle_wearing_hyrax
Neo Member
Lets be honest here, Bioshock Infinite was named Bioshock because of brand recognition.
It definetly not let him go. It tries very hard, but his weakness to water is apparently very big, which is why transporting him to the bottom of the ocean was a good idea (thus justifying why tearing into a submerged city was a good idea, after all, she needed somewhere where she was both at the bottom of the sea and safe from the bottom of the sea.)
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Awesome. I was mostly going off just how different Songbird looks (even his eyes working identically to how most Big Daddy's eyes work!) and there being sketches of him at Fink's place. Missed one out of the 80 diaries so I may have missed the one hinting at the Rapture connection before the ending sequence.
I might be inclined to agree with you except having rapture to draw from lent so much more to the ending.
I believe the diary I'm thinking of was actually in the same room as those sketches.
Where do we get that he is weak to water? I mean he died at the end in water but that was because of the massive pressure, had nothing to do with water.
what?
dude, this game goes back to explaining how everything in the Bioshock universe fucking works. How it's all the same story told in difference universes that lead to different circumstances but same ideas.
not to mention the similarities in gameplay, in the guns + vigors, scavenging, etc
this game could even go back to explain the "Shock" franchise in general
this is fucking straight up Bioshock 2
I mean the whole thing is meant to imply that BIOSHOCK IS INFINITE
i'd argue that if anything it could have been called "somethingsomethingShock", but it is way more similar to Bioshock than Bioshock ever was to System Shock anyway.
Why do you say that?
Yea That ending was basically there way of saying. Were done. Enough. Especially for Ken Levine.
monocle_wearing_hyrax
Neo Member
It contains gameplay mechanics but that's about it. The idea that there's a million different possibilities its amazing but it could definitely work without Bioshock 1. And thematically both are different enough that they can both stand on their own.
toastyToast
Member
The game calls out Irrational as a Bioshock factory and to make another one would only confirm that they're trapped in a loop
DICKS AHOY
Banned
I honestly don't feel story and pointless-ness aside the actual Bioshock 2 is any worse than the first game. I mean, it also had a much better endgame than Bioshock 1's once it realized Sofia Lamb was a terrible character and focused instead on Eleanor's relationship with her dad.
Also while I agree the name's justified, when it was first announced I was wondering why they didn't just call it AEROSHOCK or something. That would've been all sorts of dumb in retrospect.
monocle_wearing_hyrax
Neo Member
I wonder what he will do next do next. He's gotta at least thinking about it.
I disagree. I think that while the whole multiple universes thing could work: having a backbone like Bioshock to show how different this alternate realities can be while mantaining the same core concepts (one man, one city, big daddy like thing, etc) is fucking brilliant and aboslutely works to complement the story.
The rapture bit isn't just a throwaway gag and easter egg moment, it is integral to the story and makes it THAT much bigger. Overtaking the entire narrative of the previous game in the series.
Story-wise the game would have been fantastic on it's own as well, but being part of the Bioshock franchise benefits it inmensly.
It's easy to see how one could think that it was a cash grab to have the same name to drive sales, but it makes complete sense and it doesnt feel tacked on aaaaaaat all. Im willing to bet this was very much a Bioshock game all along.
sure, and I think that was part of the risk. It totally pays off in the end.
Its really not up to them though.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrational_Games
If the game is successful, 2K/Take-Two is writing the checks and has a controlling stake of the company. Its really up to them.
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
I'll just lay it out how I see it, vaguely, without any of the Songbird or Rapture stuff:
Baptized Booker becomes Comstock and creates Columbia. Through tears he comes to believe he'll wage war on the surface and sets up his prophecy/ personality cult. He needs an heir but is infertile thanks to tears. The Luteces suggest he find a version of himself that has a child and steal it. They go into the world(s) of unbaptized Booker(s) and trick him into giving up his kid. Comstock sees Booker destroying his plans and sets up the False Shepard in his prophecy to hinder Booker, and we know he succeeds in at least one world. Comstock tries to cover up the whole Elizabeth not quite being his daughter by killing everybody, when Fink tries to kill the Luteces, they become quantum or whatever due to their machine being sabotaged. They try to set things "right" by sending the unbaptized Booker(s) through a tear into Columbia, where his brain fills in the blanks and convinces him that this is how he repays a debt to somebody in New York. The Luteces are snatching up Bookers and throwing him into Columbia over and over again, observing the choices and problems each time, until one Booker eventually makes it back to where he made the choice and dies rather than make a choice, destroying every reality where Booker or Comstock exist/ would exist after the baptism.
Close enough?
Baptized Booker becomes Comstock and creates Columbia. Through tears he comes to believe he'll wage war on the surface and sets up his prophecy/ personality cult. He needs an heir but is infertile thanks to tears. The Luteces suggest he find a version of himself that has a child and steal it. They go into the world(s) of unbaptized Booker(s) and trick him into giving up his kid. Comstock sees Booker destroying his plans and sets up the False Shepard in his prophecy to hinder Booker, and we know he succeeds in at least one world. Comstock tries to cover up the whole Elizabeth not quite being his daughter by killing everybody, when Fink tries to kill the Luteces, they become quantum or whatever due to their machine being sabotaged. They try to set things "right" by sending the unbaptized Booker(s) through a tear into Columbia, where his brain fills in the blanks and convinces him that this is how he repays a debt to somebody in New York. The Luteces are snatching up Bookers and throwing him into Columbia over and over again, observing the choices and problems each time, until one Booker eventually makes it back to where he made the choice and dies rather than make a choice, destroying every reality where Booker or Comstock exist/ would exist after the baptism.
Close enough?
they opened up the gates wide open. They gave an in-game story way of explaining why Bioshock and Bioshock Infinite were so similar, and as such the only way they could move forward would be simply to tell the Bioshock story in another universe. Another city, another leader, etc. And at this point, knowing this much behind the scenes and how everything works: it'd be pointless.
I said "Irrational is not going to make another Bioshock game"
2K wanted Bioshock 2, Irrational didnt. Thus: someone else made Bioshock 2.
True. I mean we got bioshock 2 and that wasn't by IG. Tho Ken Levine is one of the only few forces working for 2K other then the brothers at Rockstar, that can basically get whatever, whenever.
Wouldn't be surprised to see them cash in on this tho
I don't really agree with that, especially with Bioshock. Take-Two, as a publisher, is a little bit different. XCOM, Spec Ops: The Line, GTAV ... all of these games get sufficient time to grow and be what the developers intend.
Perhaps we'll see Bioshock Vita, but I don't think Levine is going to be forced to make another Bioshock if he has another idea.
I am completely stunned that there are people on the first page who don't understand the ending, it's really simple - the only part that I was a little iffy about was
Comstock's prophecies, but in retrospect I'm assuming it was either a memory/tear side-affect or they were using the Lutece machine to read the future.
Well technically weren't they working on Bioshock '2' this whole time?
2K just found someone to turn one around out the door much faster.
I would love to see Irrational do something new, don't get me wrong, but I don't trust these public corporations not cashing in.
It really is.
I just think there are people who have difficulty following narratives.
snoopeasystreet
Member
I don't think tying it into Bioshock makes all that much of a difference. They basically say that Bioshock as a franchise is a person's ideology as represented by a wacky city. What they do with it is clever and plays nicely into the narrative but I don't think it would hurt Infinite if it wasn't a Bioshock game.
Pretty much the consensus, yeah.
monocle_wearing_hyrax
Neo Member
I mean that both Bioshock and Infinite stand on their own and both being called Bioshock because of a marketing decision is not that farfetched.
In my opinion, those Bookers (based on how many versions of Elizabeth appear) decided to die than turn into Comstock. Since there are mulitple universes and Bookers, wouldn't there always be a chance of a Booker becoming a Comstock?
Sure, but that's because Ken Levine wanted to. He talked about how 6 months after Bioshock 1 he started thinking about this place and how he could bring the Bioshock universe to where it's now.
If that was a publisher-driven thing, it would never had taken 5 years.
2K Marin did their own thing and Bioshock 2 is actually a really good game, but it doesnt mean that just because 2K owns Irrational as a studio and the Bioshock IP they can just whore them out to produce thousands of them. As a publisher they are known to have a lot of integrity and a great relationship with their developers. Just look at the track record.
I dont think it's far-fetched, I just think that the game indicates otherwise. This game works better because of Bioshock. Certainly it doesnt rely on it, but I am convinced that it was meant to be this way from the get go, and not something Levine had planned to shoe-in to get more attention.
I dont know. I think it's something that we've never really seen in a game's continuity and as such I instantly hold it in high regard. I just love how everything came together. Really love it. Game would never have had the same impact on me if it wasnt like this and tried to stand on it's own.
José Mourinho
cocknose
Possibly because I'm not bright enough to pick up the majority of the concepts or subtleties put forward in the game?
Maybe I'm just completely wrong, but we're coming from BioShock and BioShock 2 where everything felt like it was completely explained and fleshed out.
It could be a case of selective memory, but I seem to remember virtually every audio diary from the previous games offering some real insight in to the plot. Many of them explained the rich history of the events and the various technology and items you come across. In contrast, I felt that many of the voxophones in Infinite offered next to no note worthy content. An example I can think of would be the optional mission where you find the key in the bar. There's a voxophone recording that has a nothing character discuss the key's whereabouts and then adds in some fluff about drinking with the enemy. It felt like that recording's only purpose was to either point you to the side mission if you hadn't already started it, or to point out the location it could be used. It added nothing. Again, possible selective memory, but in the previous games where perhaps a door or safe code was included in an audio dairy, it seemed like they used the dialogue to fill in some interesting plot whilst pointing to the code.
I haven't played the previous games in a while so maybe I'm way off. I just felt that in this game, many of the big characters weren't fleshed out. In my opinion only the Luteces got the same sort of coverage in the recordings that we're used to from previous installments.
Other characters had seemingly no development at all. Songbird, Boys of Silence, crow and fire enemies. Handymen had the tiniest bit of explanation too. Also thought Comstock's recordings were very underwhelming compared to Andrew Ryan's.
I don't know. I seriously loved this game. And the more I read about its little subtleties the more I appreciate it. But there does seem to be an awful lot that was either barely touched on or completely looked over -- vigor creation for one. And I think when you're dealing with complex narratives like multiverses and so on, you need to do at least some explaining. But mainly, in regard to many of the characters, I feel like I don't know a great deal about them.
The mechanics of this aren't really explained, but I suppose we can assume that if Booker didn't go to that baptism (where he has a chance of becoming Comstock) he doesn't go to any other baptism. Those Bookers, then, wouldn't become Comstock.
I mean sure, they could force 2K Marin or something to make another Bioshock game, but I have a hard time seeing 2K force Irrational into making another Bioshock, if thats not what Ken wants to do. Which I very much doubt it is. Bioshock 1 and Bioshock Infinite compliment each other perfectly, and Infinite really does make it seem like the end for the franchise, at least from Ken's POV. Like, another game...another city...and man....we know that its all part of the multiverse, and the rules and revelations apply to whatever the next Bioshock game is.
But hell, they could come up with some new stuff to totally blow our minds...again. Who knows, but I feel like Irrational is done with Bioshock...and they're hoping it stays that way.
The One Who Knocks
Member
More or less, yes, that's correct. The only things I'd really question are the specifics of the male and female Luteces tricking Booker (since there's a possibility Comstock did indeed pay-off his debt as he said he would which would mean the agreed upon deal was kept, even though Booker immediately wished to go back on it) and with regards to the end (since it's left open and there's a few possibilities).
EDIT:
Constants, and variables. The baptism is a constant, it always happens similar to the head toss. There, Booker accepts fifty percent of the time, or rejects, fifty percent of the time (because what happens is a variable with two choices). So half of the total infinite set in which Booker survives to the baptism results in Comstock (this is, itself, and infinite set) and the other half results in Booker. What the ending means is ultimately down to your interpretations. There is the possibility that by murdering every Booker, by Elizabeth and Booker's actions, that him becoming Comstock becomes a paradox and thus cannot occur (reseting the timeline). Alternatively it didn't work as planned and Booker's death is another failure. There's also the possibility that it's all a figment of his imagination. Personally, I think the first one is what has occured but there's nothing hugely conclusive to definitively say one or the other (or at least, not at three am only three days after release).
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
Booker becomes Comstock as a result of the baptism, so if Booker dies rather than make a choice, there can never be a Comstock. I figured it was that countless worlds branched off of this choice, not that there were countless Bookers in isolated worlds that had a 50/50 chance of becoming Comstock. There can never be a Comstock because Booker and the Elizabeths erased the choice and Booker can never survive beyond that point in any world anymore.
Are there any transcripts or videos of the Fink voxophones implying he took technology from Rapture to create Songbird, Handymen, and Vigors?
jacksepticeye
Member
A video showing the whole music coming from tears thing at Fink's. Not that there was any doubt about it but nice to have a visual representation. Also Liz talks about it
http://youtu.be/5dBvOVF3yFc?t=1m14s
http://youtu.be/5dBvOVF3yFc?t=1m14s
It would appear that Booker's debt was cleared. He wasn't kicked out of his apartment after 20 years.
Bioshock 2 is a much better playing game than Bioshock 1. My main worry with Infinite was wether or not Irrational could advance the gameplay further from that and make it as much fun (and ideally more, wich it totally is) given that they had no input on Bio2's gameplay.
Vire
Member
toastyToast
Member
Doesn't Booker always go to the baptism ceremony though. The one we play as mentions he was there and decides against it at the last moment, unless he has a memory singularity with Comstock that means by drowning the Booker that didn't want to be baptised, there never is a Booker/Comstock beyond that point.
The image fading out with the last Elizabeth was probably an Inception type of thing, I'm pretty sure she disappears too. The final cutscene was likely a red herring
It's not like he made any reference other than taking a break for a while, just my guess.
I mean he consistently talks about how Bioshock Infinite almost fell apart many times and how he stressed over the story and how development was failing in general and all that. It took something like 6 years and rumors go around saying it costed 200 million bucks.
I just dont see any party involved wanting to experience that again.
BlastProcessing
Member
Most of the game I thought Booker was the Songbird because of this.
Yeah, he does. But if every Booker that attends the baptism dies, then (within Infinite story) that means that all potential Comstock's are nullified. There'll still be Booker's who chose not to go to the baptism. The assumption is that the Rejection/Comstock baptism is the only one Booker ever potentially attends.
So what is up with the end scene where he walks in on anna crying? What was that hinting at?
I feel B2 dragged a bit in the middle. Become too tedious. But agree on the rest.
I feel B2 dragged a bit in the middle. Become too tedious. But agree on the rest.
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
I wish the wrench on the airship had fallen into Rapture somehow. You walk right past where it was after all, but that might be a little too pandering.
Assuming he always goes to Wounded Knee then yes, he always goes to the baptism ceremony.
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